NefMoto

HI,

I am not remapping myself, but trying to investigate a problem I have with my MY06 Golf GTI DSG
After a remap (Dutch Tuner, well respected) I have some issues at high load.

I seems that the power is not immediately returns after a gearchange at higher load 0,5 sec delay.

It is best discribed in this pic..which is from a tread from a guy which had similair problems.
In his case there where some DSG related maps in the ecu which needed some tweaking..(guess)

http://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,36417.30.html (http://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,36417.30.html)
(http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll196/alackofspeed/enginetorquegraph.jpg)

My tuner claims this behaviour is just to protect the clutch, which i doubt..

I really hope someone on this board has some experiece with dsg specific tuning, and can give me some hints..
I have a genuine VCDS, so i can log...

If you didn't get a DSG remap as well, this is normal.
There is ways around it in MED9 but most people don't know how to do it.

What boost are you running?

This happens for two reasons:

1. Improperly calculated torque maps.
2. DSG protection, where the gearbox sends a signal to the ECU to reduce torque due to the gearbox torque limiter.

Rick

First,

Thank you all spending time on a "passant"..
Tonight I will check my requested boost, and do you have other tips which channels to log to backup your 2 reasons?

Thanks in advance..

btw. this is the dynoplot before and after remap, car is stock..

(https://dl.dropbox.com/u/25855508/runs.png)

I was in the assumption, DSG remap was not nessesary for stage 1.

"There is ways around it in MED9 but most people don't know how to do it."
Can you shed some light on this??

Block 115 gives boost actual and requested.

Is your car not an Edition 30?  it is making a lot of power for stage 1, but probably just the dyno is out.  You are also flatlining at 400Nm of torque, which is above the DSG torque limit so you are almost certainly hitting this limit.

The DSG limit can be overcome in software, there are a few ways of doing it.  I can do it but am in the UK.

Rick

Few people on mk5 forum had this issues, I have put a few right by fixing and recalibrating the engine map, some had file read from manual cars loaded to them. Some manual versions had a few changes in them which effect the characteristics of the DSG,  and some I have had to raise the torque limiters and speed up the shift speeds in the TCU map. 

Not able to log tonight, i now have 2 notebooks with dead batteries.. :-(
The car is a normal k03s GTI (BWA Engine)..

This torque limiter  is still not clear to me, from what i have read it is limited to 350nm, so why i my graph showing 400??..

Also you mentioned the TCU can tell the ECU to reduce power?..Can this be logged?

The Limiter is 350Nm - internally calculated by the ECU.  It is not hugely accurate.  It is calculated within the Engine ECU and sent to the DSG ECU.  If it is above 350 the DSG ECU will send a signal back to engine ECU to reduce torque.  You won't have 400Nm, and you also won't have 270bhp, but you likely are setting off the DSG protection.

As Nick pointed out above, there is a good chance that the tune you have is not from a DSG car too...

Thanks, Rick

So you either "Lie" to the DSG ECU, or ignore the DSG's return signal to overcome this?

That is essentially correct :)

Rick

There are 2 levels of torque reduction in the ecu, thats a start.  Have ecu not care that it wants torque reduction, or change the ecu's internal torque calculation routine.

downside of tricking dsg gearbox is that it wont always apply maximum pressure to clutch packs, so you may run into issues with that since you are lying to dsg gearbox on torque, if you disable by torque maps then dsg will make most pressure allowable by stock calibratoin on clutch packs that it can, but remap of tcu will increase pressure beyond!

TCU remap is BEST way and most reliable way.  However, stage 1 remaps are safe to just trick dsg or ecu :)  if you go larger turbo(k04 or greater) with higher torque, get proper dsg remap for sure.

Allright!

This sheds some light on it, thanks!
So can I find traces of evidence with VCDS if one of these these are taking place?

And is there more in depth information about this topic?..I am pretty geeky regarding these things.
Would like know more about what is going on in the engine.

Unfortunately I can not examine the current flash because the tuner blocked it..bummer

Finally got a wot on 4th gear to log today..looks like 1.2bar to me..

(https://dl.dropbox.com/u/25855508/Screenshot-2.png)

how exactly did the tuner block you from reading the flash?

Obviously he did not tell me,
only know tuning via ODB, flashing took a long time 8 minutes or so..

I believe you call this bricking..

use bdm to get a full flash + eeprom read.
i bet bdm is not blocked. :)

On a dyno the DSG sheds torque and seems like is trying to hold 280-285lbft dyno numbers.

Some tuners change the engine maps in way the calculated torque gets rescaled, just changing IOP map has an effect on the DSG torque output and the shift matrix based on load.   

At 1.2 bar the DSG limiter will not be kicking in.  My first thoughts it is it is just a generic flash that has been put on, probably not form a DSG car.  Either that, or it really hasn't been tuned well.  No WAY do you have 270 bhp with 1.2 bar either. 

Rick

Also, you have a LOT of timing pull for such low boost.

Rick

What is the ECU file number?

Is this what you mean?

Address 01: Engine        Labels: 06F-907-115-AXX.lbl
   Part No SW: 1K0 907 115 J    HW: 1K0 907 115 F
   Component: 2.0l R4/4V TFSI     0030 
   Revision: --H14---    Serial number: VWZ7Z0F3689036
   Coding: 040300031C070160
   Shop #: WSC 00451 211 88586
   VCID: 2D5B2760B40A1F1

No fault code found.
Readiness: 0000 0000

Yes..Dispite running on premium fuel (98RON)..

For such a BIG VAG specialist (I'm sure I know his name and initials are JD), that log and the way your car runs show real poor knowledge and poor "tuning skillz". If you need help not too far away from you, send me a PM.

1.2bar boost won't make 270bhp on its own merits, but get the engine breathing and flowing well and the ko3 will easy make 270bhp+ on the tfsi.


First think to do us get the map read off the ecu and sent to someone who knows the med9. If the tuner has scaled an axis somewhere then is could be the cause.  Will out seeing the map then is only guess work and theories.

Logging my A** off today..

Seems there are indeed torque interventions..

(https://dl.dropbox.com/u/25855508/Screenshot-3.png)

Those are torque reductions while changing gear, which is normal.  What is not easy to tell is the duration of the torque reduction, but I assume it is significant for it to be caught on a log.

I've seen this happen when level 2 torque monitoring has been bastardised.

Rick

"I've seen this happen when level 2 torque monitoring has been bastardised."

Can you clarify this?

Level 2 forms part of the watchdog function in the ECU.  It basically keeps an eye that torque isn't above the set points assigned in Level 1.  People play with the calibration maps for level 2 when they can't get the ECU to do something they want, which can lead to strange effects as the ECU ends up fighting itself internally.

Rick

Yes, I don't see these interventions on low-load, I will try a Turbo-VCDS Log to get more in depth information..
....

Well, if it is only doing it after it's mapped, it is the map.  And so it needs changing.  You need to find somebody local who can help you do this.

Rick

Hi Guys

Did you ever get this resolved ? Unfortunately i am having exactly the same issue  :'( ???
what was the outcome

Could somebody perhaps assist me in logging this issue , as i would like to have some facts in hand before approaching my Tuner and confronting him with this , as he states that My DSG needs to adapt to the new charateristics

any help will be greatly appreciated

Regards

Only adaptation carried out by the DSG is for clutch wear.

The issue is in the map.  Regards logging, what are you wanting to achieve?  Just catch the hesitation on file?

Rick

Torque limiter must change in main ECU,first.
Look at the photo. 600nm request, 530nm actual on 1.8bar with GT3076
Then you have to change the torque limiter in DSG ecu.
Ofcourse you have to change the pressure of the oil pump,for the clutch.

I'm experiencing clutch slip on a TTS DSG after LDRXN and KFMIRL raise, and KFMIOP adjusted in conjunction to it. If I leave KFMIOP standard I have torque reduction in channel 122, if I adjust KFMIOP I experience clutch slippage and longer torque reduction during gear change (and I can see in channel 122 that actual torque read low). With KFMIOP halfway I have great gear change but still a bit of clutch slip. I need to solve  :(

Because of your IOP changes you are not reporting the correct torque figure to the DSG ECU and so it isn't giving enough clutch pressure.  When you do report correct torque you get intervention as it is requested from the gearbox.  You can get round it, but really you want a DSG map.

Rick

Ok, thanks. I cannot find info on dsg remap, read, write...

What do you want to know?  Not something you can do yourself as tools are v expensive.

Rick

I can have access to expensive tools, but is it possible to read the dsg controller via OBD port? It is a temic tricore ecu?

Not the OBD port, but by plugging directly into the DSG connector.