jaymemaurice
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« on: April 24, 2016, 01:39:36 PM »
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Hey experts,
I picked up a PES G2 (Eaton) supercharger kit which was used on a 99 Audi A4 with an AHA engine.
I am going to put it on my 2001 ATQ.
Problem is that my ATQ is ME7.1 (drive by wire) and the AHA donor was M5.9 so the ECU is obviously not going to work and this is now no longer just a bolt on project.
From my understanding I cannot 'easily' read the M5.9, even in boot mode - is this correct or old information?
Even if I could read the M5.9 ECU, my understanding is that ME7 and M5.9 are radically different since Me 7.1 is based on torque demand vs the maintaining fuel mixture. Would I be able to copy relevant fueling maps between them? Would it even be worth the effort?
I don't know what the flow rate of the injectors included with the blower are.. they are made by RC Racing but couldn't find the relevant markings.
Even then, who knows about the FPR lol.
Even if I know the flow rate of the injectors and fuel pressure, am I able to get the information about the generated charge of the blower to figure out a stock G1?
Running well enough to get the car running and passing the Ontario drive clean test if I were to start tuning from scratch?
What would be the best course of action? DIY tune or reverse engineer?
If I choose to go the DIY tune route, are there any good resources/guidelines for calculating base maps based on displacement/rpm/charge pressure/injector size/fuel pressure/duty cycle etc.??
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« Last Edit: April 24, 2016, 03:22:39 PM by jaymemaurice »
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jaymemaurice
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« Reply #1 on: April 24, 2016, 01:59:02 PM »
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Also, this is my first supercharger project... when the throttle plate closes, what's the deal with vacuum spike that would happen between the blower and the TB?? How do real supercharged vehicles (Range Rover?) deal with this? (nvrm. researched - the Eaton M62 has a built in bypass and a factory application would probably use a re-circulation valve)
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« Last Edit: April 24, 2016, 03:16:13 PM by jaymemaurice »
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jaymemaurice
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« Reply #2 on: April 24, 2016, 03:04:54 PM »
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Okay so injectors appear to be RC SL4-0270 270CC saturated injectors.
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Carsinc
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« Reply #3 on: April 24, 2016, 07:51:31 PM »
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Ok I can't help you much with tuning, except to tell you you don't want anything to do with the "PES" software.
I would start by relocating the IAT to the blower housing I can show you where it fits I have done a couple PES
upgrades. I will guess most tuners will want 550cc injectors, the one thing I'm really not sure of is the maf that
car should have a Hitachi maf I don't know if it flows enough.
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jaymemaurice
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« Reply #4 on: April 24, 2016, 08:09:22 PM »
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Relocating IAT to the blower seems to make a lot of sense. I'd imagine it would be quite difficult to keep a stable tune as the blower heats up otherwise.
Why such large injectors? Wouldn't I be better served by higher fuel pressure?
Regarding the MAF PES did sell a bolt up kit that worked and didn't involve changing the MAF. Perhaps the MAF scaling was all knackered which is may part of the reason people said just avoid their tune all together.
I am wondering if understanding their tuning decisions on the AHA is even a good place to start. I mean they managed to bring a kit to market which sold a lot of units... they clearly aren't completely incompetent.
And yes it is a Hitachi MAF 078 133 471E. Doesn't look like I can modify the housing very easily to increase the diameter or anything...
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« Last Edit: April 24, 2016, 08:15:53 PM by jaymemaurice »
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jaymemaurice
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« Reply #5 on: April 24, 2016, 09:07:56 PM »
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Speaking of air flow - There is normally a map which is a "characteristic curve" based on throttle position at RPM... the map used when MAF is unplugged or non-functional. This is where I'd think much of the magic is in the PES tune since the intake runners are a completely different length and there is a giant compressor between the throttle body and the MAF. Obviously this is completely different then stock and it would be unique to the supercharged setup.
With only slight variance due to IAT and barometric pressure, I'd think air density should be pretty predictable based on RPM and throttle position, shouldn't it??
If I am starting from a completely clean slate (not looking at the PES tune) what do I do?! Get it running in closed loop and use the measured values measured from the MAF?
The more I am researching the more I realize how much is available and I am becoming increasingly skeptical on how complete of a tune I could get from a local shop that only charges me a couple hundred dollars,not spending 3 weeks screwing around to get it right...
I intended to have a reliable(but supercharged) daily driver after I bolt everything up... I'm worried this might not be possible and become a project that need continual support...
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« Last Edit: April 24, 2016, 09:15:45 PM by jaymemaurice »
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Snow Trooper
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« Reply #6 on: April 24, 2016, 09:42:09 PM »
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Switch to an s4 ecu, harness etc. Give the system an iat sensor, proper map, etc.
Start from scratch. Post up about it, could be a cool project. You can lift a lot of values from your stock file for the 2.8.
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cartoons?
6A 61 72 65 64 40 76 6C 6D 73 70 65 63
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Carsinc
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« Reply #7 on: April 25, 2016, 01:06:59 AM »
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Relocating IAT to the blower seems to make a lot of sense. I'd imagine it would be quite difficult to keep a stable tune as the blower heats up otherwise.
Why such large injectors? Wouldn't I be better served by higher fuel pressure?
Regarding the MAF PES did sell a bolt up kit that worked and didn't involve changing the MAF. Perhaps the MAF scaling was all knackered which is may part of the reason people said just avoid their tune all together.
I am wondering if understanding their tuning decisions on the AHA is even a good place to start. I mean they managed to bring a kit to market which sold a lot of units... they clearly aren't completely incompetent.
And yes it is a Hitachi MAF 078 133 471E. Doesn't look like I can modify the housing very easily to increase the diameter or anything...
As far as Pes being incompetent, well to start with they did not tune most of these cars it was farmed out to varies companies like enough that I'm not even going to try and guess what you got. I said 550cc injectors because they are cheap and easy, no need to increase pressure, the ATQ uses a 4 bar stock you could run a 3bar to help with the volume if that becomes a issue. I would guess the maf will be ok, relocating the Iat can be done very easy and it helps with timing a lot. Like I said before I am trying to learn aswell but I have been around it in the vw/audi scene for a couple years now so I know some tricks. |
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jaymemaurice
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« Reply #8 on: April 25, 2016, 07:17:52 PM »
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Switch to an s4 ecu, harness etc. Give the system an iat sensor, proper map, etc.
Start from scratch. Post up about it, could be a cool project. You can lift a lot of values from your stock file for the 2.8.
Why S4 harness? There is no way easy way I'll be able to add boost control or anything worthwhile... if I was to go that far wouldn't I be better off trying to go standalone or something with wideband or just doing a swap Any ideas for lifting the maps from the ME5?? |
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_nameless
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« Reply #9 on: April 26, 2016, 03:24:05 AM »
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Any ideas for lifting the maps from the ME5??
You mean m5.92 m(E) is dbw. I added map sensor, n75 etc to a avh 2l 8v harness then use a 1.8t ecu and tuned it for a t04e 50 trim work perfect. I don't see why you couldn't just do the same thing as I did. Also considering coils are different throttle body placement is different might be best ff just adding what you need |
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Giving your mom a tuneup
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Carsinc
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« Reply #10 on: April 26, 2016, 06:52:03 AM »
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I guess he could use 2.7 coils, and then the rest of the harness should work, but since I dont know what he would control with a n75 valve,
and then its the mapsensor is all he would gain I'm guessing its easier to change the current file than it is to make a 2.7 tune work with this setup.
Besides the fact that the 2.7 tunes are better defined and better explained for someone starting out. I'm intrested either way.
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_nameless
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« Reply #11 on: April 26, 2016, 11:37:16 AM »
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I guess he could use 2.7 coils, and then the rest of the harness should work, but since I dont know what he would control with a n75 valve,
and then its the mapsensor is all he would gain I'm guessing its easier to change the current file than it is to make a 2.7 tune work with this setup.
Besides the fact that the 2.7 tunes are better defined and better explained for someone starting out. I'm intrested either way.
Code out n75 with eakonf, I was just using it as a example from my past experiences. |
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Giving your mom a tuneup
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nyet
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« Reply #12 on: April 26, 2016, 11:40:20 AM »
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As much as I hate to admit it, standalone might be the way to go here, but it will be spendy to get one that doesn't suck.
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ME7.1 tuning guideECUx PlotME7Sum checksumTrim heatmap toolPlease do not ask me for tunes. I'm here to help people make their own. Do not PM me technical questions! Please, ask all questions on the forums! Doing so will ensure the next person with the same issue gets the opportunity to learn from your ex
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MarkS4
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« Reply #13 on: April 26, 2016, 06:26:52 PM »
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What ecu # do you have on the 2001? It shouldn't be too difficult to tune on the existing ecu. I just tuned a S6 with manual conversion and a PES sc kit. Don't worry about the current 5.92 tune, if it's anything Like their ME7.1 tunes it'll target 12:1 Afr all the time and run like crap. If you need help or advice please ask
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Carsinc
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« Reply #14 on: April 26, 2016, 06:28:56 PM »
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As much as I hate to admit it, standalone might be the way to go here, but it will be spendy to get one that doesn't suck.
Dude I can't understand what this says, or maybe I'm just refusing to listen. I have worked on / helped with tuning of B6S4 with a pes charger, a c5 s6 with a pes super charger kit, and just a month ago PES charged 4.2R8 so it can be done. I for one hope he stays the course. |
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