Pages: 1 [2] 3
Author Topic: Fueling: Partial Throttle (E85).. need some advice  (Read 23768 times)
Jim_Coupe
Hero Member
*****

Karma: +16/-12
Offline Offline

Posts: 663



« Reply #15 on: July 25, 2016, 02:45:58 PM »

I know Nyet.. but I do things my way to understand it..(which means backwards).  And why it took me long time? I have had 100 other problems to deal with.. finally I got the time to proceed with this project.  Smiley  its been 1 year now since i started.

I want to run rich at part throttle because i have high load (boost) there and i want to enrich to be cool and stable. Imagine pushing down the pedal just about 30% and the turbo starts to build upp boost and the boost creeps. I want to meet that boost with more fuel to be cool when this occurs. One could argue why i dont control this via boost control..

tomorrow i´ll log req vs actual.. and after that i have to investigate... I might have to rethink my whole fueling.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2016, 03:03:16 PM by nyet » Logged

E85oholic
nyet
Administrator
Hero Member
*****

Karma: +608/-168
Offline Offline

Posts: 12271


WWW
« Reply #16 on: July 25, 2016, 03:01:07 PM »

I want to run rich at part throttle because i have high load (boost) there and i want to enrich to be cool and stable.

Are you worried about EGT?

Quote
Imagine pushing down the pedal just about 30% and the turbo starts to build upp boost and the boost creeps. I want to meet that boost with more fuel to be cool when this occurs.

You're fine with lambda 1 part throttle.

Quote
One could argue why i dont control this via boost control..

You don't control EGTs with boost control.

Quote
I might have to rethink my whole fueling.

I still haven't figured out what your original thinking was.  There is so much consistently wrong with what you're saying I'm having trouble keeping up :/
« Last Edit: July 25, 2016, 03:03:24 PM by nyet » Logged

ME7.1 tuning guide
ECUx Plot
ME7Sum checksum
Trim heatmap tool

Please do not ask me for tunes. I'm here to help people make their own.

Do not PM me technical questions! Please, ask all questions on the forums! Doing so will ensure the next person with the same issue gets the opportunity to learn from your ex
Jim_Coupe
Hero Member
*****

Karma: +16/-12
Offline Offline

Posts: 663



« Reply #17 on: July 25, 2016, 03:31:25 PM »

Im not worried about EGT. BTS maps takes care of that. Im NOT fine with lambda 1 in this case.. The car needs more fuel when we are speaking E85, I have tested several E85 tunes where tuners fail in this case. you have to enrich like crazy.. KFBAKL for example need ALOT more. I can really feel the difference. This how i experience it today... I could be wrong.. if thats the case i´ll eat my hat..

My original thinking was "enrich" load based. And KR fueling seems to do the trick.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2016, 03:32:56 PM by Jim_Coupe » Logged

E85oholic
nyet
Administrator
Hero Member
*****

Karma: +608/-168
Offline Offline

Posts: 12271


WWW
« Reply #18 on: July 25, 2016, 04:15:22 PM »

Im not worried about EGT. BTS maps takes care of that. Im NOT fine with lambda 1 in this case.. The car needs more fuel when we are speaking E85, I have tested several E85 tunes where tuners fail in this case. you have to enrich like crazy.. KFBAKL for example need ALOT more. I can really feel the difference. This how i experience it today... I could be wrong.. if thats the case i´ll eat my hat..

My original thinking was "enrich" load based. And KR fueling seems to do the trick.

None of that makes any sense. If you want best torque, it makes the most sense to only enrich wot so your mileage doesn't suck everywhere else. If you want part throttle to make more power for a given pedal position, adjust kfped or kfmirl.

If you want safe, you're either talking EGT or knock. It can't be knock, its freaking E85.

So what is it? You just seem to be making up stuff randomly as you go.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2016, 04:18:09 PM by nyet » Logged

ME7.1 tuning guide
ECUx Plot
ME7Sum checksum
Trim heatmap tool

Please do not ask me for tunes. I'm here to help people make their own.

Do not PM me technical questions! Please, ask all questions on the forums! Doing so will ensure the next person with the same issue gets the opportunity to learn from your ex
Jim_Coupe
Hero Member
*****

Karma: +16/-12
Offline Offline

Posts: 663



« Reply #19 on: July 25, 2016, 07:00:05 PM »

I explained to you what im after...and I reached my goal. If you dont understand it thats not my problem anymore. I think have explained. Im not making things randomly up. I just wanted moret fuel when im not in WOT. What part is it that you dont understand. Im not after more torque. And KFMIRL is ok


And yes E85 dont knock.. but try run lean or near lean on E85 when you have even slight boost. I prefer to stay close to lambda 0.93. Poor milage yes. But much more stable engine. At WOT i go down to 0.80 @ 1.5bar. This is what i will run for now. But im open to other ideas. Im going to make a more detailed log.

Ps. I get the feeling that some engines just want more in some areas than other engines.







« Last Edit: July 25, 2016, 07:29:57 PM by Jim_Coupe » Logged

E85oholic
nyet
Administrator
Hero Member
*****

Karma: +608/-168
Offline Offline

Posts: 12271


WWW
« Reply #20 on: July 25, 2016, 07:47:14 PM »

What part is it that you dont understand.

First you say:
Quote
Im not after more torque

Then you say:
Quote
i get the feeling that some engines just want more in some areas than other engines.

What do you mean by "want"? Or "stable", for that matter?

Look, you clearly want to learn about tuning. To that extent, part of tuning is understanding exactly what you are trying to accomplish. If you can't explain something, it generally means you don't understand it. If you're just going to make changes based on hunches and feelings, you're not doing yourself (or anyone else, if they are reading this and want to learn) any favors.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2016, 07:50:20 PM by nyet » Logged

ME7.1 tuning guide
ECUx Plot
ME7Sum checksum
Trim heatmap tool

Please do not ask me for tunes. I'm here to help people make their own.

Do not PM me technical questions! Please, ask all questions on the forums! Doing so will ensure the next person with the same issue gets the opportunity to learn from your ex
Jim_Coupe
Hero Member
*****

Karma: +16/-12
Offline Offline

Posts: 663



« Reply #21 on: July 25, 2016, 08:08:55 PM »

1. True im not after more torque.. im after more fuel.. again

2. Diffrent engines have diffent caracters. I know u know

3. More stable i mean stable in sense of not feel that the engine hesitates or stalls. This can be due to flame speeds/ign tuning/rpm aswell. But in this case im just focusing on the fuel and more fuel helped out in this case. car "feels" great!. (what the log says is another story for now) Me7logger don work with these ECUs so i stick to VCDS.

4. In the end the result of the car is the feeling and driveability. I dont drive numbers.

5. I hope people are reading this so that they also know one day that we all work in different ways and never give up.

Go a head.. I'll give you the last words in this thread. Smiley
« Last Edit: July 25, 2016, 08:22:41 PM by Jim_Coupe » Logged

E85oholic
nyet
Administrator
Hero Member
*****

Karma: +608/-168
Offline Offline

Posts: 12271


WWW
« Reply #22 on: July 25, 2016, 08:26:09 PM »

3. More stable i mean stable in sense of not feel that the engine hesitates or stalls. This can be due to flame speeds/ign tuning/rpm aswell. But in this case im just focusing on the fuel.

I know of no reason why running richer than lambda 1 should help misfires (or you are down on torque for other reasons), if that is what you are experiencing. Just going rich to "fix" it is hiding other issues, IMO

Quote
4. In the ens the result of the car is the feeling of drivability. I dont drive numbers.

That isn't how ME7 works, that isn't how any tuner works. They drive by numbers FIRST (i.e. they understand everything that is going on before making guesses), then by feel. You don't get to drive by "feel" until you fully understand exactly what it is you are trying to accomplish, and you've exhausted every other (objective) option.

Quote
5. I hope people are reading this so that they also know one day that we all work in diffrent ways and so it their way asking qestions in a forum.

Which is why I am asking YOU questions: so the next person actually thinks about their problems in a objective, meaningful way, and not because they read some voodoo on some forum someplace.

Quote
Go a head.. I'll give you the last words in this thread. Smiley

Look, I'm only trying to be helpful. If you can't see that your methodology has issues I don't know what to say. You need to properly explain the root cause of the instability you are seeing at lambda 1 before even considering your options.

Now you might say, "by adding fuel, I can try to narrow down the reasons why I'm seeing the problem" - that's fine.

But "hey I added fuel, and it is better, I have no idea why - there I fixed it" is not good tuning methodology.

If you expect to succeed at tuning, you really have to be able to drill down and figure out what is really happening, and not just guessing then moving on.

If you had a long track record of success, I'd say sure, everyone has their own way of doing things, but as long as you are LEARNING, this method will get you nowhere in the long run.

Not only that, but if you have a long track record of success, if you can't explain WHY something works, it helps no one; it just leads to more random voodoo bs you see on every given board on any given day.

Logged

ME7.1 tuning guide
ECUx Plot
ME7Sum checksum
Trim heatmap tool

Please do not ask me for tunes. I'm here to help people make their own.

Do not PM me technical questions! Please, ask all questions on the forums! Doing so will ensure the next person with the same issue gets the opportunity to learn from your ex
nyet
Administrator
Hero Member
*****

Karma: +608/-168
Offline Offline

Posts: 12271


WWW
« Reply #23 on: July 25, 2016, 08:59:37 PM »

btw I should add that flame front issues in part throttle might be timing related. It could be stock KFZW doesn't have enough timing for the upper end of part throttle loads.
Logged

ME7.1 tuning guide
ECUx Plot
ME7Sum checksum
Trim heatmap tool

Please do not ask me for tunes. I'm here to help people make their own.

Do not PM me technical questions! Please, ask all questions on the forums! Doing so will ensure the next person with the same issue gets the opportunity to learn from your ex
Jim_Coupe
Hero Member
*****

Karma: +16/-12
Offline Offline

Posts: 663



« Reply #24 on: July 26, 2016, 05:14:58 AM »

Exactly and read my post then.. i said im going to do a more detailed log today. And suck now my flash tool is broken aswell. But i can still log actual vs requested. If the deviation is to big I will try to look into what to do. Will be intressting.

Timing could be an issue as i mentioned... Im starting to suspect something like ignition after reading some more about E85 flame speed att diffrent loads.

Stay tuned for another digi fun movie Smiley
Logged

E85oholic
Jim_Coupe
Hero Member
*****

Karma: +16/-12
Offline Offline

Posts: 663



« Reply #25 on: July 26, 2016, 06:47:38 PM »

Looked into DZWOLA map ritght now... hmm.. and my map retards ignition in a certain area when enriching the mixture up to - 3.75 degrees @ 0.79 lambda hmm.. @ lambda 1.0 retard in DZWOLA is "0.0"... Maybe this is ignition related after all..  "BIG hmmm"..
Logged

E85oholic
vwaudiguy
Hero Member
*****

Karma: +53/-37
Offline Offline

Posts: 2024



« Reply #26 on: July 27, 2016, 10:42:00 AM »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XF2ayWcJfxo
Logged

"If you have a chinese turbo, that you are worried is going to blow up when you floor it, then LOL."
Mikhail
Full Member
***

Karma: +2/-4
Offline Offline

Posts: 136


« Reply #27 on: July 27, 2016, 10:24:40 PM »

More stable i mean stable in sense of not feel that the engine hesitates or stalls.

Would this be by the VVT which don't work as it should with the turbo. In this: http://www.volkspage.net/technik/ssp/ssp/SSP_246.pdf the Torque and the Exhaust gas recirculation camshafts timings probably don't work as it should because exhaust does not flow because the turbo. My poor turbo build I run inlet cam hall sensor disconnected so in this fault situation the inlet cam is retardet max and valve overlap is zero -> much more driveable at 1500-3000rpm.
Logged
mister t
Sr. Member
****

Karma: +74/-18
Offline Offline

Posts: 343


« Reply #28 on: July 27, 2016, 11:57:20 PM »

Would this be by the VVT which don't work as it should with the turbo. In this: http://www.volkspage.net/technik/ssp/ssp/SSP_246.pdf the Torque and the Exhaust gas recirculation camshafts timings probably don't work as it should because exhaust does not flow because the turbo. My poor turbo build I run inlet cam hall sensor disconnected so in this fault situation the inlet cam is retardet max and valve overlap is zero -> much more driveable at 1500-3000rpm.

Umm, if you want 0 overlap, why not just change the VVT mapping instead of disconnecting your hall sensor?Huh?
Logged
Lost
Hero Member
*****

Karma: +21/-14
Offline Offline

Posts: 556


« Reply #29 on: July 28, 2016, 07:40:35 AM »

Jim

You are taking the wrong approach to E85.
MKR fueling will not do anything for you mostly as there is no knock on e85 ofcourse if something is not really wrong.
There is no reason running richer at partthorrtle on e85 at all than lambda 1.
Logged
Pages: 1 [2] 3
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines Page created in 0.024 seconds with 18 queries. (Pretty URLs adds 0s, 0q)