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Author Topic: Starting Tuning From Square 1 A few tips please  (Read 22377 times)
AustinLee
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« on: August 24, 2016, 11:24:57 AM »

Alright guys, my previous post was about my GIAC tuned ECU. I want to start fresh with a stock tune. I want to verify that using the tune labeled “551M Hitachi.bin” located in the Nefmoto Community project 2.7T stage 1 post would be correct and a good place to start.

http://nefariousmotorsports.com/forum/index.php?topic=6695.30

I plan on using the XDF file located in the same thread labeled “Nefmoto Stage1.xdf” to start.  I looked for a more advanced one but to no avail. Id like to be able to adjust all of the parameters but have them all labeled as in the stage 1, but I cant seem to find the right xdf file. Ive also read in the comments section of this xdf file that if I want to go past 14.5 psi of boost then ill need to use the Nefmoto stage 2.xdf which I couldn’t find.

My current setup is completely stock on which I plan on building a separate engine and dropping it in come the end of the winter. My car is a 2001.5 Audi S4 ECU 8D0 907 551 T. Which ive read is compatible with AA ECU’s. I have read alot of the community 2.7t stage 1 thread and it all seems to click so far.

My questions-
Does anyone have the Nefmoto stage 2.xdf file?
Can I really not set my boost past 14.5 psi with the stage 1.xdf file?
Once I flash to the file labeled “551M Hitachi.bin” does my car become an M-box and no longer a T-box?

Thanks for all the help. Sorry if this is kind of jumbled…
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nyet
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« Reply #1 on: August 24, 2016, 11:26:18 AM »

There aren't separate xdfs, that would make no sense. M box is Mbox.

See my sig for useful information.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2016, 11:28:03 AM by nyet » Logged

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AustinLee
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« Reply #2 on: August 24, 2016, 12:00:08 PM »

There aren't separate xdfs, that would make no sense. M box is Mbox.

See my sig for useful information.

I have looked at those links multiple times. Ill keep looking at them! Smiley Ok tho so how come this xdf file only shows these parameters...

I have looked at the one called "8D0907551M-20130729" and lots more parameters appear?

I just want to be sure that if i flash my T-box with an M-box ECU file it will work perfectly.

Thanks nyet!
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Carsinc
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« Reply #3 on: August 24, 2016, 12:17:19 PM »

I think he meant a futher defined xdf. its not that you cant set the boost higher its that without
other mods there is not more gains. I looked real quik did not find any, but nyet has really good mbox defs on his
site.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2016, 12:21:10 PM by Carsinc » Logged
AustinLee
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« Reply #4 on: August 24, 2016, 12:33:00 PM »

I think he meant a futher defined xdf. its not that you cant set the boost higher its that without
other mods there is not more gains. I looked real quik did not find any, but nyet has really good mbox defs on his
site.

Right. I did download nyets but I like DDillengers better because I can easily know what the variables are without hovering over them. I really should use nyets tho because that way ill learn the variable names.. any how I found out one more thing.

I still am trying to see if I can just upload the file I mentioned above to my car and start it as a base tune… Anyone help me out with this?

I did notice that if I ran the me7check and me7sum on my giac tune it said in the beginning the following.
     
-   ‘0261207452’   (SSECUHN)
-   ‘1037362558’  (SSECUSN)
-   ‘8D0907551T’  (VAG part number)
-   ‘0003’  (VAG sw number)

I know your not supposed to trust the me7check and sum on tuned files from companies because itll miss things, however I wanted to find the software level???

The new file that I want to use 551M Hitachi.bin said the following

-   ‘0261207143’   (SSECUHN)
-   ‘1037360857’  (SSECUSN)
-   ‘8D0907551M’  (VAG part number)
-   ‘0002’  (VAG sw number)

So all in all the new tune I want to use has a different SSECUHN, SSECUSN, VAG part number, VAG sw number.

Am I still ok to use this ECU file? I checked and sum’d it and found no errors.

Thanks for all the input!!
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nyet
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« Reply #5 on: August 24, 2016, 05:12:40 PM »

Yes, M and T are interchangeable
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AustinLee
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« Reply #6 on: August 25, 2016, 12:01:06 PM »

Thanks everyone! Ok so before i start tuning and logging ive been trying to understand...

How come the requested boost cant look like this?(Green line below) Why does it have to taper off??


This is from the community 2.7t stage 1 thread. Ive asked multiple people from work and the answers were the following.

1. Not sure.
2. you have to drop off requested boost near redline because egt will get too hot and you'll burn valves
3. The green line is what you want it to look like, its just impossible to get it like that unless you have a perfect setup.

What is the real correct answer??? Im trying to write my own tune but want to understand everything first..
« Last Edit: August 25, 2016, 12:02:37 PM by AustinLee » Logged
nyet
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« Reply #7 on: August 25, 2016, 12:09:50 PM »

1) take a look at the k03 compressor map
2) injectors

Might want to hold off on tuning until you understand turbo fundamentals...
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AustinLee
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« Reply #8 on: August 25, 2016, 01:51:23 PM »

1) take a look at the k03 compressor map
2) injectors

Might want to hold off on tuning until you understand turbo fundamentals...

Ok ive learned alot from reading the following:
http://www.golfmkv.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1782738

Ive also created an excel to calculate everything for me so I can do some plotting and create the optimal boost curve(which im sure you guys have already done, but I want to learn) Ill update everyone in a little while.

I also totally understand the injector thing. On stock injectors running at 14.5 psi at 2500 rpm is 1/3 the fuel of 14.5 psi at 7500rpm(not achievable but just as a reference). Id have to log duty cycle and see what it is at 14.5 psi at 2500 rpm. Probably somewhere in the 80 percent range. Hence the decrease in boost after.

I feel like im at the tip of the iceberg but nonetheless starting to understand!
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AustinLee
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« Reply #9 on: August 26, 2016, 11:27:45 AM »

Ok ive learned alot from reading the following:
http://www.golfmkv.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1782738

Ive also created an excel to calculate everything for me so I can do some plotting and create the optimal boost curve(which im sure you guys have already done, but I want to learn) Ill update everyone in a little while.

I also totally understand the injector thing. On stock injectors running at 14.5 psi at 2500 rpm is 1/3 the fuel of 14.5 psi at 7500rpm(not achievable but just as a reference). Id have to log duty cycle and see what it is at 14.5 psi at 2500 rpm. Probably somewhere in the 80 percent range. Hence the decrease in boost after.

I feel like im at the tip of the iceberg but nonetheless starting to understand!



Ok guys so ive been researching and talking to more people... Heres what i came up with.

For the stock K03 Turbo, here is pretty much the max boost you can run with supporting mods? This would be considered a reasonably safe tune. Nyet if you could verify?



Note* The column labeled "CFM per Turbo" has an incorrect name. It should be Meters/sec of air per turbo.

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Carsinc
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« Reply #10 on: August 26, 2016, 11:56:31 AM »

That still to much boost to make peak power on a K03. peak should be 17.5ish maybe 18 IMO.
But thats for my area i understand it different everywhere we are basiclly at sealevel and have 93 octane.
I dont even run that much normally to be honest its more for people that like to see the boost gauge move.
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nyet
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« Reply #11 on: August 26, 2016, 12:19:50 PM »

You're neglecting pressure drop over IC - you're way high, not to mention over the MAP limit.
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AustinLee
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« Reply #12 on: August 26, 2016, 12:38:25 PM »

You're neglecting pressure drop over IC - you're way high, not to mention over the MAP limit.

This is supposed to be requested boost. I definitely agree that it would be less actual after the pressure losses. This is with all supporting mods tho. So that would have an upgraded MAP? Looks possible tho correct? I can see actual boost being alot less as Carsinc stated.
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nyet
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« Reply #13 on: August 26, 2016, 06:43:21 PM »

This is supposed to be requested boost. I definitely agree that it would be less actual after the pressure losses.

No, req is req after losses (at the throttle body inlet, or, if we weren't using the misnomer "MAP", the actual MAP, which is in the intake manifold, downstream of the throttle body). That is because the PID works on the difference between req and actual (measured at the tb inlet).

P/R supported by the turbo is before losses (at the turbo compressor outlet), which is nowhere near the pressure sensor.

Even worse, you're also neglecting intake losses from ambient to the turbo compressor inlet, which makes the P/R you're basing your req boost even further off.

http://s4wiki.com/wiki/Compressor_map

Quote
This is with all supporting mods tho. So that would have an upgraded MAP?
No. You don't need an upgraded MAP because the turbo will never get that high. And if you did, you'll hit the hardcoded (in the ECU) MAP limit, which requires the ASM 5120 hack, which is definitely beyond your ability right now

Quote
Looks possible tho correct?

No

Quote
I can see actual boost being alot less as Carsinc stated.

No. Actual boost should not deviate from request, except during spool.

You completely misunderstood how the boost PID works, what P/R is, etc.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2016, 06:51:53 PM by nyet » Logged

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Do not PM me technical questions! Please, ask all questions on the forums! Doing so will ensure the next person with the same issue gets the opportunity to learn from your ex
vwaudiguy
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« Reply #14 on: August 26, 2016, 10:24:55 PM »

One more, and it would have been red no.5
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