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Author Topic: Lean protection question  (Read 6132 times)
fknbrkn
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« on: October 10, 2017, 05:50:52 AM »

Quick question here! Is there any lean protection via throttle cut? Wideband ecu 7.5
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RBPE
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« Reply #1 on: October 10, 2017, 08:33:03 AM »

There was a 1.8T conversion one of the lads did a few years back that I thought was (at least) closing the throttle plate to enrichen the mixture but a dodgy oil pickup destroyed it before I had time to go into details. Felt like power loss in mid range before it picked back up, consistent with air/fuel/rpm if I remember right. There does tend to be load limitations and technically the drivers request is as per dk opening for charge in many respects.

However, with the sheer depth of rc/rl charge details in computations;
https://app.box.com/s/lr5yx98l0j8az3xb1d94mgik2t7s2p6t

https://app.box.com/s/mgalngtwdggjwj9ciy08yachlvtz4zvw

Coupled with the patent statements like;
"The pivotable throttle valve is fastened to a shaft BE, which is operated by a control device for adjusting the shaft and thus also of the throttle valve at a given angle, and so the supply to the motor through the channel with a predetermined amount of air or Ge mixed for allows different operating conditions of the engine."

http://www.google.com.pg/patents/DE4135806A1?cl=en

http://www.google.com.pg/patents/DE4306607A1?cl=en

Then I always assumed that the ecu would lessen the plate angle for lean running before anything else as it stands to reason.

 You have a detailed mass/energy relationship in Physics so say the ecu took a different route and extended the opening time of the injectors so that more fuel is released. Firstly, there's the possibility of already maxxing duty cycle so no more fuel, but if not, what happens with this extra opening time/fuel? Well, one thing is the spark timing would or possibly could be way out, especially seeing as you are likely running lean at higher loads/rpm's, so you've less time to mess up really! You have a "flight time" of the droplet of fuel so how does this change? I doubt my svelte 125kg frame can keep up with Usain Bolt in the 100m so there is a mass/energy/(relative) time relationship to think about and in this case, how long does the droplet take to get where it's going if the ecu increases timing and therefore mass? (Also short runners/injector placement changes etc of course in aftermarket mods).
So if the ecu is piddling about trying to add fuel that may or may not be there with these changes, plus the wall wetting/flight times/spark timing/energy etc - then will it need to adapt the spark timing too and lots of other maps? If at high rpm's then surely just decreasing actual versus drivers load is the quickest way to enrichen the mixture so either holding the throttle plate at it's current angle or closing it a touch would surely be the better way?

Given that I always assumed yes, it does that as it would be easiest and most likely safest way of doing it, a bit like completely cutting throttle if all else fails in it's computations, it's something the ecu can control easily!

p.s. I know you're not a noob and likely know these things, but I am trying to put links I can find easier up in places!  Grin
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prj
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« Reply #2 on: October 10, 2017, 03:20:17 PM »

What is the point in this wall of text?

Narrowband ME7 will instantly cut throttle if it sees lean on O2 when it should be rich.
On WBO2 if you get a significant enough deviation, you throw a code and go into limp mode depending on configuration due to exceeding adaptation limits (DKVS).
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RBPE
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« Reply #3 on: October 12, 2017, 03:02:29 AM »

Principles of modus operandi for the air/fuel mixture on an educational forum in a noobs section obviously, no point just saying it'll do this or that, may as well explain the reasoning behind it somewhat!
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prj
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« Reply #4 on: October 12, 2017, 08:04:59 AM »

Principles of modus operandi for the air/fuel mixture on an educational forum in a noobs section obviously, no point just saying it'll do this or that, may as well explain the reasoning behind it somewhat!
Except your "explanation" is a load of irrelevant rubbish. There are a ton of things in there which show ignorance towards the fundamentals of ICEs. It is not in the scope of this thread to point out the individual parts.
Harsh, I know, but a quick peek at the FR explains exactly how the ECU works and why this or that is done, there is no need for theorycraft, especially not for theorycraft under false pretenses.
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nyet
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« Reply #5 on: October 12, 2017, 08:52:57 AM »

closing the throttle plate to enrichen the mixture

What the?

Quote
"The pivotable throttle valve is fastened to a shaft BE, which is operated by a control device for adjusting the shaft and thus also of the throttle valve at a given angle, and so the supply to the motor through the channel with a predetermined amount of air or Ge mixed for allows different operating conditions of the engine."

Gibberish.

Quote
Then I always assumed that the ecu would lessen the plate angle for lean running before anything else as it stands to reason.

First you said less throttle to enrich, but now to lean (considering BOTH are wrong)? If you have a MAF (not to mention a wideband) sensor, changing the amount of air ingested will immediately cause the ECU to alter IDC.

Quote
You have a detailed mass/energy relationship in Physics so say the ecu took a different route and extended the opening time of the injectors so that more fuel is released.

Gibberish. Why not just say IDC is proportional to fuel mass?

Quote
Firstly, there's the possibility of already maxxing duty cycle so no more fuel, but if not, what happens with this extra opening time/fuel? Well, one thing is the spark timing would or possibly could be way out, especially seeing as you are likely running lean at higher loads/rpm's, so you've less time to mess up really! You have a "flight time" of the droplet of fuel so how does this change? I doubt my svelte 125kg frame can keep up with Usain Bolt in the 100m so there is a mass/energy/(relative) time relationship to think about and in this case, how long does the droplet take to get where it's going if the ecu increases timing and therefore mass? (Also short runners/injector placement changes etc of course in aftermarket mods).
So if the ecu is piddling about trying to add fuel that may or may not be there with these changes, plus the wall wetting/flight times/spark timing/energy etc - then will it need to adapt the spark timing too and lots of other maps? If at high rpm's then surely just decreasing actual versus drivers load is the quickest way to enrichen the mixture so either holding the throttle plate at it's current angle or closing it a touch would surely be the better way?

Given that I always assumed yes, it does that as it would be easiest and most likely safest way of doing it, a bit like completely cutting throttle if all else fails in it's computations, it's something the ecu can control easily!

I don't even know how to respond to this.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2017, 08:59:30 AM by nyet » Logged

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RBPE
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« Reply #6 on: October 14, 2017, 11:08:53 AM »

"closing the throttle to enrichen" and "Then I always assumed that the ecu would lessen the plate angle for lean running before anything else as it stands to reason."

Nyet - you're misunderstanding the context. With ultimate airflow being a determination of, amongst other things, ultimate flow, then I am on about the orifice physical dimensions which will basically obv speed up gas flow, this in turn changes the mass-energy equivalence determinations etc

"I assumed that the ecu would lessen the plate for lean running" therefore means that IF running lean, i.e. too much air to fuel, then "I would presume" that in order to lessen air mass it closes the throttle. This would actually do nothing to the air mass at first but essentially speed it up through the orifice and so on as mentioned (i.e. the kinetic energy created from speed increase would create warmer air, i.e. less dense and that usually equals less power - relatively speaking of course as a quick gas flow at low valve openings can be beneficial somewhat - can be done to Nth degree as an engines operation is dynamic), or continue to reduce orifice dimensions until the equivalent mass and volume equals expected interpretations that the ecu has stored in it's memory in terms of control perameters (less adaption needed and roughly what it's originally designed for)!

So that's what I was getting at, the Gibberish is just some Bosch patent info, usually in German, translations may be off and systems vary but blame them if you disagree with them, it's some links for noobs to look into the basics the white coats were developing at the time for controls!

They were talking about the importance with the control systems in determining the mass of air, or critical mass ratio's or the filling of a cylinder etc so it's all connected really, like I say, blame Bosch!
Seeing as they are also related to things in the control system like the mass/volume of a droplet of fuel coming from an injector that is open for x amount of time, the wal wetting - I assume some of you have looked at the "Golf ball dimples" heads, maybe read about "bump" with engine building etc, plus of course, the spark timing when energy for release generated like on injector/ignition upgrades etc..... then it's all related and should be explained as such on a DIY forum I thought! (As I evidently do now!).

So I guess although the ecu can alter the IDC in it's controls to a finite degree, then it's all pointless babble without understanding the basics of the operation, those who's cars are running weird at 4k onwards may want to know more about how to control it and want to know what is happening and why and so on! Whether that's more boost, or different tb, or an induction kit or whatever!

But no, let's all get adversarial and and attempt to try and belittle people that go against basic acronym/control basics shall we!
« Last Edit: January 07, 2018, 12:12:14 PM by RBPE » Logged
fknbrkn
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« Reply #7 on: October 15, 2017, 01:23:23 PM »

What is the point in this wall of text?

Narrowband ME7 will instantly cut throttle if it sees lean on O2 when it should be rich.
On WBO2 if you get a significant enough deviation, you throw a code and go into limp mode depending on configuration due to exceeding adaptation limits (DKVS).

well ive seen many cars with fault pumps and as u know there are many cases ecu doesnt operating fuel trims (and sometimes o2 regualtion too) and car running lean on WOT without any limits
and iirc even fault code and +25% partial trim doesnt prevent any limp mode, car still running lean
of course i can write some routine which cuts the torque when lean conditions are detected but factory ways are always better.

RBPE, in short way - my target is cutting torque request to prevent engine failure. ecu operating throttle valve and timing values for that
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prj
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« Reply #8 on: October 15, 2017, 05:53:46 PM »

Actually O2 control is switched off when BTS is active.
And BTS should be active. On narrowband if during that time the O2 sensor sees mixture that is leaner than stoich, there is instant throttle cut.
Not checked how it is on WBO2.

As for the "lean" protection from o2, I would not worry too much about running super lean. If your AFR is 17:1 and leaner it is impossible to destroy the engine, due to EGT dropping off rather quickly.
It's much worse if it is lean enough to run, but not rich enough to combat EGT.

The way this is done on any normal ECU is using delta P.
If (fuel pressure - intake pressure) > X then cut throttle. Needs a fuel pressure sensor though.
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fknbrkn
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« Reply #9 on: October 16, 2017, 11:57:32 AM »

Quote
It's much worse if it is lean enough to run, but not rich enough to combat EGT.

thats what im talking about

seems that i should write my own routine  Smiley
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prj
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« Reply #10 on: October 16, 2017, 11:57:33 PM »

No need for any special routine, just a single check of fr_w > X with a debounce timer and force ldr error.
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