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Author Topic: ignition timing table setup for 100 octane fuel  (Read 14778 times)
pieros_net
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« on: October 29, 2019, 06:16:52 AM »

Hi guys,
I'm running costantly 100 oct fuel and I have understood during the timing setting at High load that I can gain +5 or +6 degrees more instead of 95 octane

I would like to set all values for each rpm/load%

is it a good idea?
 
I will just rise +3degree for all? (except the high load values modified according me7logger WOT)


thank you friends
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nyet
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« Reply #1 on: October 29, 2019, 09:19:19 AM »

Hi guys,
I'm running costantly 100 oct fuel and I have understood during the timing setting at High load that I can gain +5 or +6 degrees more instead of 95 octane

I would like to set all values for each rpm/load%

is it a good idea?
 
I will just rise +3degree for all? (except the high load values modified according me7logger WOT)


thank you friends

Roughly, yes, but at some point KFZWOP might need some work (probably more relevant for E85 or 103oct+ though)
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prj
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« Reply #2 on: October 30, 2019, 01:59:37 AM »

KFZWOP never "needs work". If your ignition is more advanced, you just have 100% angle efficiency.
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nyet
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« Reply #3 on: October 30, 2019, 10:49:16 AM »

KFZWOP never "needs work". If your ignition is more advanced, you just have 100% angle efficiency.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I was under impression that the flame front velocity of E85 and 105+ was different and might change where 100% angle efficiency is.

Again, this is not from personal experience but from what I "heard".

I'm skeptical, of course.
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ME7.1 tuning guide
ECUx Plot
ME7Sum checksum
Trim heatmap tool

Please do not ask me for tunes. I'm here to help people make their own.

Do not PM me technical questions! Please, ask all questions on the forums! Doing so will ensure the next person with the same issue gets the opportunity to learn from your ex
woj
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« Reply #4 on: October 30, 2019, 11:11:50 AM »

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I was under impression that the flame front velocity of E85 and 105+ was different and might change where 100% angle efficiency is.

Well, prj concluded that there is no practical difference and KFZWOP does not need touching. That was in another thread a while back that had a heated discussion about that. Regardless of his opinion, I did some research before I got into my E85 tuning, and the flame speeds are different. At rich the difference is negligible, at stoich it is substantial. And there is scientific data for that (please do not make me quote the source, I lost it). Other sources also said that E85 is effectively less advanced, that is, your KFZWOP should be dropped and, contrary to some other info out there, you should be "delicate" in advancing the timing on E85.

The other thing of course is - how accurate and trustworthy KFZWOP tables are where they are beyond the knock limit. Even Bosch docs says these are theoretical values, and as such they can probably be left untouched for other fuels. Where they can be verified, the actual differences are probably very small translating to even smaller differences in spark efficiency, and that's the only thing the KFZWOP does after all, no?
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IamwhoIam
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« Reply #5 on: October 30, 2019, 11:52:01 AM »

OEM KFZW is calibrated with 120+ RON fuel, so they hold zero value for E85 tuning.
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I have no logs because I have a boost gauge (makes things easier)
pieros_net
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« Reply #6 on: October 31, 2019, 12:03:53 AM »

thank you for the suggestion!

Just another question regarding my poor cold start starting from 15 C° and below.
As per some info get on this forum I have to touch FKSTT and KFZWSTTM.

my issue is about FKSTT, there are two maps and the values are strange!( ecu 8N0906018H )
for some C° the value is so high (see attached picture)

If I go to see values on different ecu, example APX engine they are linear value

Why?
How I can proceed ?


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sonique
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« Reply #7 on: October 31, 2019, 03:17:43 AM »

just need correct map address and same linear
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Blazius
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« Reply #8 on: October 31, 2019, 03:41:48 AM »

that map is 100% not well defined.
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pieros_net
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« Reply #9 on: October 31, 2019, 04:33:23 AM »

Thank you!
I will try to adjust it!

Then Increase 20%  is ok?
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adam-
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« Reply #10 on: October 31, 2019, 04:55:40 AM »

I wouldn't add a flat 20%.  I'd be logging first, depending on your boost levels you could be knocking as it. 

Randomly adding a flat 20% to a timing map because 'the internet told you so' is unbelieveably dumb.  Check first, add, check again...
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pieros_net
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« Reply #11 on: October 31, 2019, 05:36:16 AM »

I was talking about FKSTT that should be fuel enrichment map...
About timing I will monitoring by log no problem
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woj
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« Reply #12 on: October 31, 2019, 05:55:30 AM »

Tuning FKSTT (if you really have to touch it, why is it supposedly off in the first place?, something else being a problem? mechanical?) is a seriously painful process. Assuming you do not have industrial strength military grade wideband installed (mine shuts down on crank for example) - first, it takes some ear to figure out if you have too much or too little fuel (both situations can be a no start), and then you add/subtract in small increments until you hit the sweet spot. One crank and you have to wait for some hours to cold soak the engine, any subsequent cranks are not the same temperature conditions, despite the CTS readings being (almost) the same. Though probably a bit easier for gasoline than for Ethanol that has horrible cold starting parameters.
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fredrik_a
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« Reply #13 on: October 31, 2019, 06:25:26 AM »

...industrial strength military grade wideband installed (mine shuts down on crank for example)

When calibrating this you use an independant sensor with separate powering so crank voltage drop won't affect your readings at all :-)
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pieros_net
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« Reply #14 on: October 31, 2019, 06:39:40 AM »

Before scaling KRKTE for the 440cc, no any issue, maybe because fuel was so enriched.

When I completed The scaling and my LTFT are ok I start to get the problem.
If I consider that I dropped KRKTE around 22%, I was thinking to re add the same fuel before scaling by FKSTT, increasing 20-25% only at critical temp 0c, 10c, 20c
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