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Author Topic: Let's have a serious discussion of TQ Management  (Read 50291 times)
NOTORIOUS VR
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« Reply #30 on: April 03, 2012, 08:07:02 PM »

nothing in particular, just would like to hear some results from trying it out, like general observations.  if you take full MarkP style logs that'd be cool too...

I tried it... did exactly what you said... car drove weird and was getting high CF's and very low timing...

so for me it was a no go completely.

I will post logs tomorrow
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jibberjive
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« Reply #31 on: April 04, 2012, 02:40:45 AM »

Here's logs from the file I mentioned in post #24.  I haven't had time to try with that KFMIRL/KFMIOP, and I'm not sure I'll have time to do any experimenting soon.  To note though, I didn't have any timing issues when I simply scaled the RS4 interpolated KFMIRL/IOP (as can be seen in the logs below).  Like I mentioned though, my spool ramp up slowed down a little from previous files, as well as slightly lower accel g's and FATS times.  Also to note, I'm only running wastegate spring pressure with no N75, so if the intervention would have kicked in via N75, I wouldn't have noticed it when driving. Also, I'm still working on my fueling, and the weirdness from 3800-4200 is from the notch.





« Last Edit: April 04, 2012, 07:29:07 PM by jibberjive » Logged
NOTORIOUS VR
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« Reply #32 on: April 04, 2012, 07:28:20 AM »













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phila_dot
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« Reply #33 on: April 04, 2012, 07:57:32 AM »

Unfortunately, these logs don't really shed any light on torque intervention.

Are these logs reflecting modified MDZUL or *_um tables?

Someone please log the variables in post 3.

OT:
Jib, so the notch does not manifest in rlmx_w, rlmax_w, or rlsol_w? Just rl_w?
Did you log fnwue?
What variable is labeled IgnitionTimingAngleOverallDesired? zwgru or zwbas?
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NOTORIOUS VR
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« Reply #34 on: April 04, 2012, 08:12:03 AM »

Unfortunately, these logs don't really shed any light on torque intervention.

I agree... I will get better logs tonight... I didn't really have time to fool around yesterday.. just loaded the file and a quick log.

I will get the proper logs later today I hope.
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Rick
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« Reply #35 on: April 04, 2012, 08:42:14 AM »

Not sure what you guys are or aren't doing here.

I don't mean to be rude but the wizards available on here aren't going to help you. I have 700bhp engines that drive completely smoothly with a lovely throttle response at any load and speed. One tip though, don't use IOP to tune throttle response. You'll tie yourself in knots

Rick
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NOTORIOUS VR
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« Reply #36 on: April 04, 2012, 08:46:46 AM »

Not sure what you guys are or aren't doing here.

What I'm trying to achieve is proper power delivery, because as of yet nothing I have done is allowing my motor to ramp up as fast as it physically can.  There is always some sort of TQ intervention.

I would love to hear you expand on your methods for modifying the TQ/load on high HP cars.  So please, take some time and tell me how you deal with it on your 700Hp cars.

As of current, I am still convinced that anything larger the K04 on the S4 will have issues unless the tables are modified quite a lot.
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NOTORIOUS VR
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« Reply #37 on: April 04, 2012, 08:58:11 AM »

One thing I don't understand..  I'm going to babble a bit, let me know if there is something you all don't understand.

Say I'm starting with complete stock S4 M-box variables in the TQ settings..  stock IOP, IRL, etc..

Now I want to ramp load/tq/boost as quickly as possible.  Obviously I need to increase IRL.  After that, I need to edit IOP to match or else the car will buck like a 1980's misfiring jalopy.

But all I see about editing IOP is to either rescale (or even decrease values in IOP if not rescaling).  So by doing that, doesn't it actually negate everything I'm trying to do in IRL?Huh

If I want to see 220 load by 3500 RPM, I have that set in LDRXN... in IOP 220 load should be around 95+ say since it will be the last column and that needs to relate to IRL so that between 90-99 I am "requesting" 215-220 load.

All of this "should work" yet I cannot seem to see any good reason why the ECU is limiting my load to 200 (like above).  It's ALWAYS the same, on almost every tune I have that "notch" and this is with different IRL, IOP and other TQ management values.
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« Reply #38 on: April 04, 2012, 09:33:38 AM »

Now I want to ramp load/tq/boost as quickly as possible.  Obviously I need to increase IRL.

No you don't. IRL doesn't affect boost ramp, only prevents you from getting the peak boost you want.

boost is generally regulated by throttle plate and wgdc.. log those.
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« Reply #39 on: April 04, 2012, 09:40:49 AM »

No you don't. IRL doesn't affect boost ramp, only prevents you from getting the peak boost you want.

boost is generally regulated by throttle plate and wgdc.. log those.

I'm not only talking about boost Nye.

I'm talking about TQ... I want the motor to make as much TQ as soon as possible.  IRL effects this does it not?

For instance... what do you think would happen if I leave 100% stock M-box IRL, IOP, etc on my Tial car?  Do you not think the ECU will start to limit load?

What I am trying to get at here, no one really knows how to make all that TQ management stuff work together (well apparently Rick does)...

I know 100% that the ECU is holding my car back... I've seen and felt what can happen when I screw with the TQ management settings... It's unbelievable how much stronger the car feels... BUT my modifications are not correct as I will bump into  TQ monitoring codes (level 2) under part throttle.

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« Reply #40 on: April 04, 2012, 09:42:17 AM »

Leave IRL it won't effect spool, just the maximum that can be achieved for a requested throttle position

You have far too much timing as it comes on boost. The ECU is already pulling timing and you are requesting yet more load.

If you can send me your MAF and injector calibration tables I will send you a tune to try. The first thing I would change on your car would be the MAF unless you have a proper transfer function for it. RS4 does 700 plus and comes with a fully calibrated flow curve.

Rick
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nyet
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« Reply #41 on: April 04, 2012, 09:49:07 AM »

I'm talking about TQ... I want the motor to make as much TQ as soon as possible.  IRL effects this does it not?

Why would you want the motor to make as much TQ as soon as possible if you aren't at WOT?

Quote
I know 100% that the ECU is holding my car back... I've seen and felt what can happen when I screw with the TQ management settings... It's unbelievable how much stronger the car feels... BUT my modifications are not correct as I will bump into  TQ monitoring codes (level 2) under part throttle.

You don't know anything 100% until you've logged the appropriate TQ management variables.

STOP GUESSING
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Please do not ask me for tunes. I'm here to help people make their own.

Do not PM me technical questions! Please, ask all questions on the forums! Doing so will ensure the next person with the same issue gets the opportunity to learn from your experience.
NOTORIOUS VR
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« Reply #42 on: April 04, 2012, 09:52:16 AM »

Leave IRL it won't effect spool, just the maximum that can be achieved for a requested throttle position

You have far too much timing as it comes on boost. The ECU is already pulling timing and you are requesting yet more load.

If you can send me your MAF and injector calibration tables I will send you a tune to try. The first thing I would change on your car would be the MAF unless you have a proper transfer function for it. RS4 does 700 plus and comes with a fully calibrated flow curve.

Rick

Rick,

so basically the only two rows I should need to change in IRL are the last two? And even then anything after say 220 is not going to do anything because the ECU can't see it anyway right?

please disregard the above log... it's horrible and was a mix of all kinds of things..

Here is the same timing table but using my TQ settings: http://nefariousmotorsports.com/forum/index.php?topic=617.msg16846#msg16846

as you can see far less CF's and more ign. advance overall.

I can send you the tune I am using from the above linked tune, how about that.

My MAF is an 85mm housing w/ a Hitachi sensor.  I'm already maxing it out over 5600 RPM so I will not be keeping it for much longer. I don't see how an RS4 will do 700 plus, I know it is ~82mm? and the Bosch sensor can read slightly more.. but I am no where near that (if I would have to guess around 450awhp) on my 25psi w/ the Tial 605's.

shoot me a PM with your email/contact info and I will get you the file
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s5fourdoor
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« Reply #43 on: April 04, 2012, 10:25:50 AM »

I agree that IRL/IOP map's uploaded shouldn't have too much relevance for 605's or GT's under high load.  For K04's the changes are intense.  Seriously Nyet, you have to try it...  I know you are skeptical but exactly like I said and as did Jibber's initial response, the car feels snappier, sharper, more precisely tuned.  If this wasn't the case, I wouldn't bother responding to my post, because clearly the WOT results look like crap - and nobody seems to be satisfied with them.  For my own sake however, I'm headed back to study BerTTos's tune further.
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phila_dot
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« Reply #44 on: April 04, 2012, 10:32:52 AM »

No you don't. IRL doesn't affect boost ramp, only prevents you from getting the peak boost you want.

boost is generally regulated by throttle plate and wgdc.. log those.

rlsol_w is used in the calculation of both DK and WGDC.
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