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Author Topic: True ME7.5 Speed Density  (Read 74651 times)
kacperoooni
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« Reply #75 on: April 11, 2022, 11:25:02 AM »

Exactly the same problem on alpha/n.
Been a while since I looked at ME7, I don't remember anymore how the charge temp modelling worked or how advanced it was.

You either model the charge temp or hope that closed loop takes care of it.
And btw no IAT correction map is going to solve your idle issues.
The simplest charge temp model is a map where IAT and Coolant temp comes in and charge temp comes out. This charge temp is then additionally blended via flow and timers.

The core issue is that there is not enough flow over the IAT sensor where it gets any reasonable reading. It starts reading the temperature of the pipe where it's in (so heat in engine bay) because not enough air flows over it to get a good reading.

But tbh the majority of this issue can be solved in a primitive way by messing a little with TVUB - setting it a little too high and injector size (or rather FKKVS factor) a bit lower.
Then when it gets heat soaked on idle, because of the slightly wrong TVUB it will not go that lean ...

Sorry, not going to dig in FR for charge temp modelling.

In me7.5 i see that CWTEMPK is 1, so evtmod is used for ftbr and further for furl. Its input is tmot and tans to i think that some kind of temperature modeling is done. I will test different combinations od CWTEMPK. I wonder about lack od ftsr in ps_w measuring. I will try to relocate iat sensor too and check if it solves the problem
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nyet
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« Reply #76 on: April 11, 2022, 11:51:27 AM »

The core issue is that there is not enough flow over the IAT sensor where it gets any reasonable reading. It starts reading the temperature of the pipe where it's in (so heat in engine bay) because not enough air flows over it to get a good reading.

Wow!!! I have always been suspicious of this because i've seen really wonky IAT values at idle. Thanks for confirming.
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Blazius
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« Reply #77 on: April 11, 2022, 12:03:15 PM »

Map sensor is not a problem. I have tries couple of vag sensors and all od them are fast enough. Main problem is iat heatsoaking on idle. I wonder how its done on mafless files with alpha-n. On the worst case ill make switch to make idle work alpha n and the rest on map

Never said that, i mean its a good sensor to use if you wanna convert, no need to modify the intake manifold etc.


Indeed they are fast enough, I am not sure where your earlier comments came from. Also not sure why you looking in the 2.5 files when literally 4 cylinder me 7.5 SD exists from Bosch exists, it is prolly a better match from what ive seen. If you do the bg module like them you will get everything baked in like they do oem.
Which doesnt eliminate the heatsoak problem (on the 1.8 w stock mani), it literally exists from factory and I have seen it many times. Regardless the whole conversion will be miles better than running alpha n and stuff and the rest will be taken care of by closed loop and calibration from said data.
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BlackT
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« Reply #78 on: April 11, 2022, 12:22:07 PM »

Or use IAT from stock MAP. That could solve problem
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kacperoooni
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« Reply #79 on: April 11, 2022, 02:27:13 PM »

Never said that, i mean its a good sensor to use if you wanna convert, no need to modify the intake manifold etc.


Indeed they are fast enough, I am not sure where your earlier comments came from. Also not sure why you looking in the 2.5 files when literally 4 cylinder me 7.5 SD exists from Bosch exists, it is prolly a better match from what ive seen. If you do the bg module like them you will get everything baked in like they do oem.
Which doesnt eliminate the heatsoak problem (on the 1.8 w stock mani), it literally exists from factory and I have seen it many times. Regardless the whole conversion will be miles better than running alpha n and stuff and the rest will be taken care of by closed loop and calibration from said data.

Can you give more info about this 4 cyl SD ecu? Ecu number, motor ID, displacement, car model, anything?

My speed density besides the heatsink problem work pretty well tbh
« Last Edit: April 11, 2022, 04:22:34 PM by kacperoooni » Logged
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« Reply #80 on: April 11, 2022, 03:47:47 PM »

Can you give more info about this 4 cyl SD ecu? Ecu number, motor ID, displacement, car model, anything?

My speed density besides the heatsink problem for pretty well tbh
I have working sd code I'd be willing to share. Pm me if you want.
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BlackT
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« Reply #81 on: April 12, 2022, 09:05:33 AM »

Is there map in ME7 for injector corection according to IAT?
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Blazius
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« Reply #82 on: April 18, 2022, 09:17:47 AM »

Can you give more info about this 4 cyl SD ecu? Ecu number, motor ID, displacement, car model, anything?

My speed density besides the heatsink problem work pretty well tbh

1.4 me7.5.10, you should have it already, pretty sure you said so yourself.

Care to share your code?
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Blazius
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« Reply #83 on: October 27, 2022, 08:50:42 AM »

Bit quiet in here heh Smiley ?


So in the past couple days I actually basically finished my 'conversion' during my hardware and rebuild changes. I've been running on the file for a couple hundred KM's now and I cant observe or feel any weird things happening, logs looks good too from what I've seen
Miles better than Alpha N obviously, fuel trims without ANY injector tuning(fkkvs and etc all 1's) are within 5%, I am pretty impressed.
It's running on a 3 bar MAP on maf wiring with hose connection to the intake manifold (but any other MAP could be used if you mount it properly) making it suitable for easy conversion.





MapSensor is the new variable the pressure value from the MAP after conversion from voltage to pressure.
The conversion/sampling currently takes place in a 1ms raster then ran through a single value lowpass filter.

To do:
- Error checking/ Revert to alpha N on sensor failure:

Currently if the sensor fails meaning MapSensor= 0  the engine will stall as there is no revert to alpha N load calculation at the moment

Extras:
- Repurpose KFKHFM or create similar to create a correcte variable from sensor output , Bosch did it.
- Change the filter to a map so that filtering can be done vs rpm and load or other variable as a bonus
- Take samples at crank sync and average them to lower filter values if needed, however current system works fine as it for the accuracy range even without maxed filtering

All in all I am happy it works and its miles ahead of alpha n and other weird stuff  Wink
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prometey1982
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« Reply #84 on: October 28, 2022, 09:55:49 AM »

Bit quiet in here heh Smiley ?


So in the past couple days I actually basically finished my 'conversion' during my hardware and rebuild changes. I've been running on the file for a couple hundred KM's now and I cant observe or feel any weird things happening, logs looks good too from what I've seen
Miles better than Alpha N obviously, fuel trims without ANY injector tuning(fkkvs and etc all 1's) are within 5%, I am pretty impressed.
It's running on a 3 bar MAP on maf wiring with hose connection to the intake manifold (but any other MAP could be used if you mount it properly) making it suitable for easy conversion.





MapSensor is the new variable the pressure value from the MAP after conversion from voltage to pressure.
The conversion/sampling currently takes place in a 1ms raster then ran through a single value lowpass filter.

To do:
- Error checking/ Revert to alpha N on sensor failure:

Currently if the sensor fails meaning MapSensor= 0  the engine will stall as there is no revert to alpha N load calculation at the moment

Extras:
- Repurpose KFKHFM or create similar to create a correcte variable from sensor output , Bosch did it.
- Change the filter to a map so that filtering can be done vs rpm and load or other variable as a bonus
- Take samples at crank sync and average them to lower filter values if needed, however current system works fine as it for the accuracy range even without maxed filtering

All in all I am happy it works and its miles ahead of alpha n and other weird stuff  Wink
HI. Can you share the code?
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vwnut8392
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« Reply #85 on: October 28, 2022, 08:17:38 PM »

Bit quiet in here heh Smiley ?


So in the past couple days I actually basically finished my 'conversion' during my hardware and rebuild changes. I've been running on the file for a couple hundred KM's now and I cant observe or feel any weird things happening, logs looks good too from what I've seen
Miles better than Alpha N obviously, fuel trims without ANY injector tuning(fkkvs and etc all 1's) are within 5%, I am pretty impressed.
It's running on a 3 bar MAP on maf wiring with hose connection to the intake manifold (but any other MAP could be used if you mount it properly) making it suitable for easy conversion.





MapSensor is the new variable the pressure value from the MAP after conversion from voltage to pressure.
The conversion/sampling currently takes place in a 1ms raster then ran through a single value lowpass filter.

To do:
- Error checking/ Revert to alpha N on sensor failure:

Currently if the sensor fails meaning MapSensor= 0  the engine will stall as there is no revert to alpha N load calculation at the moment

Extras:
- Repurpose KFKHFM or create similar to create a correcte variable from sensor output , Bosch did it.
- Change the filter to a map so that filtering can be done vs rpm and load or other variable as a bonus
- Take samples at crank sync and average them to lower filter values if needed, however current system works fine as it for the accuracy range even without maxed filtering

All in all I am happy it works and its miles ahead of alpha n and other weird stuff  Wink

probably because no one is posting any BIN's is why its quiet.
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Blazius
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« Reply #86 on: October 30, 2022, 07:20:54 AM »

HI. Can you share the code?

I would like to do some more testing before that, just waiting on one of my mates to finish his build too.

But thinking about it what will that accomplish? The few people who can do this have probably already done this or similar thing (why do you think they havent posted it) and you think others can implement it properly instead of getting another launch control situation type stuff around the forums, even with proper instructions posted?
It requires disassembly of any bin you want to implement it on, also changing stuff around Keil, building it then patching it in , creating the maps at the right adresses etc.

I did say in the past I will most likely post it if it works ok so I will but... yeah...

Also its not just about bins bins bins, there are plenty of bins posted already, people just dont follow up it seems.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2022, 07:23:23 AM by Blazius » Logged
prometey1982
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« Reply #87 on: October 30, 2022, 10:50:00 AM »

I would like to do some more testing before that, just waiting on one of my mates to finish his build too.

But thinking about it what will that accomplish? The few people who can do this have probably already done this or similar thing (why do you think they havent posted it) and you think others can implement it properly instead of getting another launch control situation type stuff around the forums, even with proper instructions posted?
It requires disassembly of any bin you want to implement it on, also changing stuff around Keil, building it then patching it in , creating the maps at the right adresses etc.

I did say in the past I will most likely post it if it works ok so I will but... yeah...

Also its not just about bins bins bins, there are plenty of bins posted already, people just dont follow up it seems.
Yes, every software should be modified from the scratch. But I'm talking about approach. Like getting uhfm and then translate into ps_w_raw value by dslofs and dslgrad. And then filtering raw value by LowpassT or something like  this. Also dpsfg_w and psfg_w values should be calculated somehow.

So there was community 5120hack project. Yes there were some holes in process. But main idea with the most problem areas were discussed.
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prj
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« Reply #88 on: October 30, 2022, 12:42:45 PM »

Yes, every software should be modified from the scratch. But I'm talking about approach. Like getting uhfm and then translate into ps_w_raw value by dslofs and dslgrad. And then filtering raw value by LowpassT or something like  this. Also dpsfg_w and psfg_w values should be calculated somehow.

So there was community 5120hack project. Yes there were some holes in process. But main idea with the most problem areas were discussed.

You need to do more FR reading. dpsfg_w is the one that is important. psfg_w gets calculated from that via integrator KISRM.
So:
1. Acquire the uhfm - well the ECU does that for you in 1ms raster and places it into a variable. Good.
2. Add a filter map and insert lookup to it in some slow-ish raster, like 10-100ms. I used simple multiplication and nmot_w x rl_w map. I hijacked fvisrm for this, because it's not used anymore. A good scaling is to have e.g. 65535 as pass through value, then you can just right shift result 16, or just take the high bits after 16x16 mult.
3. Modify place where dpsfg_w gets calculated (this is done in synchro-raster) and instead of doing the MAF calculation:
a) Take the raw uhfm_w, convert to pressure via some added constants (I called them DSMGRAD and DSMOFS).
b) Subtract psfg_w from this (you get new dpsfg, pre-filter).
c) Apply filter by multiplying the result by filter value (hijacked fvisrm in my case), this limits the rate of change and gets rid of the extensive jitter. Remember that because it's in synchroraster your filter value needs to decrease with RPM to have same result.
d) Assign result to dpfsg_w.
4) Modify DHFM diagnosis to check for valid pressure sensor readings instead, and make it trip error code, so if your MAP sensor craps out you can still switch to alpha/n.
5) Tie up loose ends. There are some places that use mshfm_w and you need to change those to use msdk_w.

It's a lot of work tbh. This list should help you implement.
But doing it for any bin - it's like a full time job. Even if somebody posts the bin, I think you will spend longer time reversing what is done instead of just writing yourself.
For simpler code writing I recommend using Keil uVision, assembling it to .H86 and then using hex2bin on .H86 file. Then you can use macros and labels, especially for bounds checking.

And once that's all done, now you need to really UNDERSTAND how the ME7 speed-density model works.
This means that it actually really matters what you have in KFURL, KFPRG and KFPBRK.
Because if you have garbage in there then your load will be completely wrong, even in so far that the car will not even stay running.
With a MAF it's irrelevant what you have there because it only uses it to calculate ps_w, and then uses inverse to get back to rl. Thus it makes no difference on load.
This took me few hours on dyno to dial in, and I knew exactly what I was doing. If you don't know what you're doing good luck.

And finally you will have to tweak ESUK, because MAP sensor is much slower than MAF at reading air and you will need more aggressive enrichment.

Even when people bought the SD solution from me, some never got it to work, because they did not have enough knowledge to tune the VE model.

Could I post code? Probably.
Would it be of any use to anyone except to someone using the exact binary the code is posted for? No
Would it be of any use to the average "tuner", who has no clue how the VE system works? No - they never calibrated it and they won't even get the car to start on SD if it's significantly modified from stock.

I posted full custom boost pid for NA ME7 with all the code, I doubt anyone ever used it.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2022, 12:56:18 PM by prj » Logged

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vwnut8392
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« Reply #89 on: October 30, 2022, 03:56:09 PM »

I would like to do some more testing before that, just waiting on one of my mates to finish his build too.

But thinking about it what will that accomplish? The few people who can do this have probably already done this or similar thing (why do you think they havent posted it) and you think others can implement it properly instead of getting another launch control situation type stuff around the forums, even with proper instructions posted?
It requires disassembly of any bin you want to implement it on, also changing stuff around Keil, building it then patching it in , creating the maps at the right adresses etc.

I did say in the past I will most likely post it if it works ok so I will but... yeah...

Also its not just about bins bins bins, there are plenty of bins posted already, people just dont follow up it seems.
i was jsut saying in general. i dont drive or own anything ME7 personally, im just watching this because its interesting. yes i understand it involves disassembly to do this properly. any code modifications requires that. last ME7 car i owned i just ran the MAF in blow through configuration and hid it in the FMIC piping so no one could see it. i know most here would scream blasphemy with doing that and than fine a million ways to poke holes in doing it but that seems like what they do best here, look for the negative in what you do and than poke holes in it hoping it sinks just like the original author of this thread disappearing after criticism from certain users.

Looking at all the stuff required from PRJ's post above could some extra effort to dumb down the ECU and make it more pressure dependent and less load/torque dependent be possible? sort of like how standalone works. would be much simpler to configure if the user didnt have to worry about throwing off load calcuations because its obvious that touching certain things directly affect that. MAP pressure would be a more consistent value to base from since your using speed density anyway. i get it would be a lot of work to change all table axis's to be pressure manually but there are very smart and creative people here that could make a tool to do that in a few clicks. for example on KFZW your axis's load over RPM. if you mess something up load wise it throws the reading this table completely out. if the load axis was changed to be MAP pressure instead of load it would be a far more consistent axis and simple to calibrate. if im at this boost pressure and this RPM than my ignition angle is this intead of looking at it with load and realizing that your way out of whack and have to track backwards through a 100 different maps/constants in hopes of finding that one small error that wrecked the whole setup.

i understand some of this as i use PRJ's old M2.3.2 speed density for old 5 cylinders which i can attest for works very well. i have not ever mentioned in public before but i have done some disassembly on that old motronic and did to it what i said above. this is for personal use only i did this conversion from load to pressure. like in M2.3.2 the change over from closed loop lambda control to what is essentially open loop MAF based or MAP based in SD code boost fueling is dictated by load. but when you mess with the VE table and other constants/multipliers for fueling you can easily throw the load way out of whack which will affect this tip over point among many other things. basically what i did to circumvent this was convert as much of it to pressure as i could. now instead of that change over  being load based like factory it is now MAP pressure based so say if i want it to start fueling straight from the VE table at 10psi than i just tell it that via an added constant and it does it spot on every time. with how he did things he left some open room to do other stuff too like there was 3 linearization maps for MAF that where repurposed for VE table and IAT compensation tables leaving a third unused and not referenced. what i did was re-add that unused table and made it into a VE table subtractor at idle only because you always ended up with this pit in the corner of the VE table or ran out of room and had to mess with the VE constants which directly affect the load over all once again. this table is only referenced when the idle switch in the TPS is pressed and below 1200RPM. its fairly simple, all it does is take the VE table value, the added table value and it subtracts the added table value from the VE table. simple to calibrate idle fuel now. axis's are MAP pressure over RPM. MAP pressure axis mainly in negative values and ends at 0 vacuum where on the table the value is 0 meaning no change or straight through.  idea for that came from how it controls idle ignition. only difference is idle ignition doesnt add or subtract from the main table, its only referenced when certain values are met like idle switch and below X RPM.

I know im comparing apples to oranges here as ME7 is far more complex in comparison but have looked at some of the stuff like MAF in the ME7 FR vs how the MAF works in the M2.3.2 FR and ME7 has all the same basic functions and flow as M2.3.2 but ME7 has several other layers of complexity added to it and the final output of GGHFM is completely different from what the final output of GRUFU in M2.3.2 FR is. GGHFM's final output is a clean MAF signal. GRUFU's final output is the actual fuel injection or ti.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2022, 04:49:36 PM by vwnut8392 » Logged
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