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Author Topic: Siemems 630cc injector clarification and fine tuning of KRKTE, FKVVS  (Read 31157 times)
tuffty
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Hi

First post after being a lurker for a little while so here goes... bit of background first...

I have a 2001 Audi S3 that I have done a big turbo conversion on... the spec is essentially as follows..

1.8 20v (AMK), std bore/stroke, AEB head and Supertech valve gear std cams, GT3071r, 0.63 hotside, Tial wastgate, Siemens Deka IV 630cc injectors, 3bar FPR, std S3 MAF housing and sensor, FMIC etc...

My ECU is an ME7.5 (wideband and EGT probe)... I have been working on a base file to get the injectors dialled in and have so far found a few bits of conflicting info regarding the calibration data for these injectors... has taking a me a few attempts to get KRKTE close but think I am pretty much there now but have a few questions...

I have read S4 wiki inside out and having wide band makes it a bit easier to get WOT sorted on the road using block 001 in VCDS and checking Lambda Control... I have set up both LAMFA and KLFBTS with suitable fuelling and have set TVUB according to a spec sheet I found here:
http://siemensdeka.com/specsheets/FI114961cs.jpg
ms    volts
1.441    8
0.921    10
0.758    11
0.636    12
0.518    13
0.409    14
0.312    15

...although this conflicts with the data on the link here...
http://injector-rehab.com/shop/lag.html
ms    volts
0.83    10
0.64    11
0.5    12
0.38    13
0.28    14
0.17    15

Wasn't sure what to believe but went with the former rather than the latter... I used the 34.125/630 method initially but WOT was pulling a lot of fuel so after a lot of trawling and reading (mainly on Nef) I used another spec sheet from the siemens deka site (http://siemensdeka.com/specsheets/FI114961.jpg) which suggests that in fact the injectors are 668cc @ 3bar and the following useful post on Nef
So here's my math on this, which I believe to be correct. (which I will be adding to my "theoretical" DIY/reference soon)

Rated vs. Operating pressure:

If you're AWT has 260cc injectors:

260 @ 3Bar (43.5psi) = 260cc
260 @ 4Bar (58.0psi) = 300.22cc (assuming a 4bar FPR that I believe comes stock on your car)


Conversion given n-heptane (the testing solution for injectors valued at 0.684g/cc Density):
300.22 x 0.684 = 205.250 g/min

50.2624*Vhzyl / Qstat

Vhzyl = Displacement/Cylinders = 1.781/4 = 0.44525
Qstat = Injector value @ operating pressure = 205.250

--50.2624*0.44525/205.250
---22.3793336/205.250
Calculated KRKTE= 0.10903

Your stock value: 0.10478
Your calculated value: 0.10903

Technically, thats a 4% final difference in injector calculation, not too far off but enough that I would want to change it.

This got me to a KRKTE of 0.04933 and a WOT run looking like:


Now... maybe a little tweak and I can get that a tad better but here are the questions...

Given that my LTFTs are hovering around mid 3%, is it better to tune FKVVS (mine isn't set to 1's like some of the other files on here) and/or TVUB? Due to the conflicting info on the 630's do I believe my TVUB settings to be correct? I have spoken to a friend who tunes for a living and I have no reason to disbelieve him at all (I know he is a member on here) but I thought it would be nice to get other people views on an approach to this Smiley

I have access to a dyno where I can do steady state across load sites but not sure if I am chasing the impossible of if I will get some progress from it...

Any advice is welcome Smiley

<tuffty/>

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marcello7x
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Can't help, but damn great first post, i started posting way before i knew enough to actually work on a tune.

Anyways, im a few steps behind you in my tune. 20v 1.8t with the same exact turbo, not sure of hotside though, same WG and injectors. Im technically fixing a screwed up tune from a pro, but it actually forced me to learn alot faster by looking for his mistake. I should hopefully be logging my first few runs in the coming days, so i'll be watching this thread and hopefully be able to contribute,
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tuffty
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Thanks bud... there is a lot to learn isn't there...  Grin been reading a lot over the past few weeks... I do have a small head start as a friend of mine has a tuning business and a dyno and he has let me work over there on my own car so you pick stuff up as you go... the map I had originally was from the original conversion I did and I have changed a lot of the hardware since so decided to have a go myself from scratch...

Good luck with yours Smiley

<tuffty/>
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tuffty
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Still don't know for sure if either of the links I originally posted are the correct ones but after a little more research I stumbled across another useful post here:
http://nefariousmotorsports.com/forum/index.php?topic=1523.0

Using the excel spreadsheet and adjusting the TVUB calc values according to the siemensdeka.com data sheet I got the following values:


These were calculated at 3bar as transverse 1.8t's use these FPR's rather than the 4bar more common with inline 20v's

Anyone got any clarification as to if the siemensdeka.com datasheet is accurate? or even that my interpretation of the data from spreadsheet in the above post is ok?

<tuffty/>
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professor
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I use 1.1975 - 0.7361 -0.4881 - 0.3334 - 0.2480 and i have 1.2% measurements on block 032.
Siemens deka 630 with 3fpr.
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tuffty
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I use 1.1975 - 0.7361 -0.4881 - 0.3334 - 0.2480 and i have 1.2% measurements on block 032.
Siemens deka 630 with 3fpr.

Thanks mate... will see how this next file goes and if its still out by any amount I'll try these next...

How did you derive these values?

<tuffty/>
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professor
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I start from a base set of values and after some logs those looks to be the closest i can get to 0.
Its good to share so if you find them useful please inform.

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marcello7x
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i'll be looking at this tomorrow, and will post what my trims are as well as what my current tune has.
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marcello7x
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im at 2.6% adjustment at a KRKTE of .05150 and TVUB stock, 1.5735 .9521 .6214 .4134 .2720. I will try some adjustments and report back later.
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Gizmo20VT
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« Reply #9 on: September 14, 2012, 02:20:19 AM »

Bump, really interesting info here on the 630cc deka's, has anyone tested the value's supplied by professor?

I will be using these injectors as well on the same spec vechile (hi tuffty  Grin) .

(My apology if I have hi-jacked in any way)
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prj
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« Reply #10 on: September 14, 2012, 03:09:02 AM »

Just as information, these injectors are crap in general.
They are non-linear at low pulsewidths and over time their spray pattern further deteriorates at low loads causing lots of misfires at idle...

The boschdealer specs are wrong as well IIRC.
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RaraK
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« Reply #11 on: September 16, 2012, 11:17:05 AM »

Just as information, these injectors are crap in general.
They are non-linear at low pulsewidths and over time their spray pattern further deteriorates at low loads causing lots of misfires at idle...

The boschdealer specs are wrong as well IIRC.

100% agree, after fighting with these for so long, i totally will not support them anymore.  Can make them run great on one car with my set of injectors, another set is totally different, they have terrible QC IMO. 

I only support EV14 injectors now.  You will be AMAZED at the difference without a proper tune on them.  getting ev14's mildy tuned in, is better than 630's at their best in my experience.

630's were the only option at one point, step up to the newer technology and dont waste your time.
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em.Euro.R18
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« Reply #12 on: September 17, 2012, 07:47:44 PM »

I've worked with 630cc injectors and they are as nonlinear as you can get. They require some serious fine tuning of the batter voltage compensation and I've found the injection correction map to be quite useful in helping with the non linear behavior as well. KFFKVS is the abbreviation for injection correction map. I won't go back to those injectors again though. I have yet to see a magic BVC that has worked well for more than one application.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2012, 07:50:39 PM by em.Euro.R18 » Logged
littco
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« Reply #13 on: September 18, 2012, 04:19:41 AM »

What's a good alternative then, 550's being too small?
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prj
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« Reply #14 on: September 18, 2012, 04:47:23 AM »

750cc long body EV14's.
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