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Author Topic: High injector offset to prevent idle/free rev misfires  (Read 3479 times)
azxuts
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« on: January 01, 2021, 06:41:29 PM »

Hey guys, new member here but not new to armature ecu mcfkery.

I have a 2.7t I'm working on, ko4s, 630 injectors @ 4 bar, 83mm hitachi maf, and catless exhaust - completely stock otherwise. I've been having trouble getting his idle fuel trims to not swing completely negative with little success, however part throttle cruising and WOT is almost perfect (fuel trims will vary +/- 5% short term while long term will head towards and stay at 0%).

I'm using injector data from another forum for the particular injectors on this car (0 280 158 117) as a baseline and have MLHFM scaled up 35.6% to account for the change in diameter for the larger housing, again, fueling seems to be almost there except at idle. The car ran very good with this data unmodified, much better than how it was when I started working on it.

If I reduce TVUB, fuel trims at idle will go a little more towards zero, but the car then gets a horrible hiccup/stumble/miss at idle which is especially pronounced at 1500-2500, the car will also buck at low speed off throttle. Curiously, I've had this exact problem before on a completely different motor - a 3.0 ford v6 which was completely stock running a standalone, which would be cured by running a higher offset at the expense of burning my eyes out, I wound up giving up on that and tuning a ford ecu instead...This particular car had small ~350cc injectors which should have had in theory no problems with idling.

So, what could cause this? My guesses are:
-There is some sort of noise coming somewhere for fueling, resulting in injector load varying around, which upon swinging lean causes a miss that can be fixed by increasing offset
-The injectors are simply so large that on gasoline they can't meter fuel in a small enough quantity, and the low injection time isn't enough to open the pintle
-The O2 sensors are lying/defective - kinda wonder this since the car despite being catless really does not stink or smoke at idle whatsoever, though could be from the -25% trims doing their best.
-Similar to point #1, there is a major problem in my tune which is causing the ECU to use one load value which causes the car to run good rev up lets say, which then causes the ECU to read a table such as MLHFM and read a value that then causes it to go lean, and so on

Unfortunately I do not have the car in front of me and am limited in what I can do right now, and the owner currently does not have a wideband or any other better means of confirming fueling 100%.

As another side note, I am working the tune that was on the car from a previous tuner (horrible practice I know), but the car behaves exactly the same when a stock M-box tune has only MLHFM, KRKTE, and TVUB modified for his hardware, so I doubt anything else weird is going on in the file.
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nyet
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« Reply #1 on: January 01, 2021, 09:01:04 PM »

-The injectors are simply so large that on gasoline they can't meter fuel in a small enough quantity, and the low injection time isn't enough to open the pintle

Of all the things you've mentioned this is the only one to rule out, unless the injectors themselves are defective... that's a very popular injector and should not have any issues idling.

I can only advise trying stock fuel injectors and stock KRKTE/TVUB to rule out bad injectors.

It is possible something else is amiss in your fuel/air/ignition... coilpacks, vac leak, throttle body problems, crank position sensor, fuel pump issues, fuel filter issues, fuel pressure regulator issues, ICM, O2s, exhaust leak etc.

I doubt it is the tune at this point, you'd be best off starting to eliminate hardware problem possibilities first, one by one.
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« Reply #2 on: January 01, 2021, 10:35:17 PM »

Hey guys, new member here but not new to armature ecu mcfkery.

I have a 2.7t I'm working on, ko4s, 630 injectors @ 4 bar, 83mm hitachi maf, and catless exhaust - completely stock otherwise. I've been having trouble getting his idle fuel trims to not swing completely negative with little success, however part throttle cruising and WOT is almost perfect (fuel trims will vary +/- 5% short term while long term will head towards and stay at 0%).

I'm using injector data from another forum for the particular injectors on this car (0 280 158 117) as a baseline and have MLHFM scaled up 35.6% to account for the change in diameter for the larger housing, again, fueling seems to be almost there except at idle. The car ran very good with this data unmodified, much better than how it was when I started working on it.

If I reduce TVUB, fuel trims at idle will go a little more towards zero, but the car then gets a horrible hiccup/stumble/miss at idle which is especially pronounced at 1500-2500, the car will also buck at low speed off throttle. Curiously, I've had this exact problem before on a completely different motor - a 3.0 ford v6 which was completely stock running a standalone, which would be cured by running a higher offset at the expense of burning my eyes out, I wound up giving up on that and tuning a ford ecu instead...This particular car had small ~350cc injectors which should have had in theory no problems with idling.

So, what could cause this? My guesses are:
-There is some sort of noise coming somewhere for fueling, resulting in injector load varying around, which upon swinging lean causes a miss that can be fixed by increasing offset
-The injectors are simply so large that on gasoline they can't meter fuel in a small enough quantity, and the low injection time isn't enough to open the pintle
-The O2 sensors are lying/defective - kinda wonder this since the car despite being catless really does not stink or smoke at idle whatsoever, though could be from the -25% trims doing their best.
-Similar to point #1, there is a major problem in my tune which is causing the ECU to use one load value which causes the car to run good rev up lets say, which then causes the ECU to read a table such as MLHFM and read a value that then causes it to go lean, and so on

Unfortunately I do not have the car in front of me and am limited in what I can do right now, and the owner currently does not have a wideband or any other better means of confirming fueling 100%.

As another side note, I am working the tune that was on the car from a previous tuner (horrible practice I know), but the car behaves exactly the same when a stock M-box tune has only MLHFM, KRKTE, and TVUB modified for his hardware, so I doubt anything else weird is going on in the file.
id also verify that the injectors are genuine. many many fakes now adays. sets for 40 bucks on ebay make me lol. but on a serious note your dead times are majorly wrong most likely. look at the ev14 thread it has dead times for those injectors
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azxuts
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« Reply #3 on: January 02, 2021, 09:09:55 AM »

First off, thank you guys for your insight, I really appreciate it.

I think I want to agree with you guys that there is likely a hardware problem going on of some sort. I'm personally very curious about his injectors, as they did give me that impression of being chinsy. They were labeled with your typical bosch part number, three numbers circled (seen this before on my injectors on that 3.0), and rather hilariously to me at least, FoMoCo and a Ford part number; also etched in a different font was "550 CC" which is a bit of a red flag to me.

Of the parts you've listed nyet, most of them have been replaced or checked recently - except the injectors and O2 sensors (which are "good" used units after he got an O2 high resistance code).

I think my next step would be to throw in stock injectors and/or measure the current injectors and verify that they are at least flowing near the 630ccs they are supposed to. A while back I made a setup with an arduino to pulse an injector at various pulse widths to measure offset and non-linear flow so it would be interesting to see how they do.

EDIT: Completely forgot to mention that my TVUB @ 14v is significantly higher than the data posted in the EV14 thread by nyet, ~0.940 ms vs ~0.750. Coincidentally I ran the car at 0.800 which brought the symptoms described back. Gonna have to test these injectors to be sure on anything though.
« Last Edit: January 02, 2021, 09:12:55 AM by azxuts » Logged
thedrill
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« Reply #4 on: January 02, 2021, 06:53:13 PM »

I don't know if it will help anything but when I had my DEKAS installed .
I changed my FKVVS axis to help with misfires at idle.
This is how I had mine set  0.85 0.95 0.98 1.00 1.50 2.00 3.00 4.00 5.00 6.00 7.00 8.00 9.00 10.00 11.00 12.00.
You probably just have oriental injector issues.
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nyet
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« Reply #5 on: January 03, 2021, 12:51:35 AM »

I don't know if it will help anything but when I had my DEKAS installed .
I changed my FKVVS axis to help with misfires at idle.
This is how I had mine set  0.85 0.95 0.98 1.00 1.50 2.00 3.00 4.00 5.00 6.00 7.00 8.00 9.00 10.00 11.00 12.00.
You probably just have oriental injector issues.


1) DEKAS are pretty crappy. They leak and fail when hot. They're such crap the chinese didn't bother making knockoffs. If they did, the knockoffs would probably be better.

2) FKKVS in the 2.7t is all ones, changing the axis is not going to do a thing.
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ECUx Plot
ME7Sum checksum
Trim heatmap tool

Please do not ask me for tunes. I'm here to help people make their own.

Do not PM me technical questions! Please, ask all questions on the forums! Doing so will ensure the next person with the same issue gets the opportunity to learn from your ex
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« Reply #6 on: January 06, 2021, 07:28:34 AM »

if they say 550 on them they are 100% fake
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bamofo
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« Reply #7 on: January 06, 2021, 02:09:02 PM »

Hey guys, new member here but not new to armature ecu mcfkery.

I have a 2.7t I'm working on, ko4s, 630 injectors @ 4 bar, 83mm hitachi maf, and catless exhaust - completely stock otherwise. I've been having trouble getting his idle fuel trims to not swing completely negative with little success, however part throttle cruising and WOT is almost perfect (fuel trims will vary +/- 5% short term while long term will head towards and stay at 0%).

I'm using injector data from another forum for the particular injectors on this car (0 280 158 117) as a baseline and have MLHFM scaled up 35.6% to account for the change in diameter for the larger housing, again, fueling seems to be almost there except at idle. The car ran very good with this data unmodified, much better than how it was when I started working on it.

If I reduce TVUB, fuel trims at idle will go a little more towards zero, but the car then gets a horrible hiccup/stumble/miss at idle which is especially pronounced at 1500-2500, the car will also buck at low speed off throttle. Curiously, I've had this exact problem before on a completely different motor - a 3.0 ford v6 which was completely stock running a standalone, which would be cured by running a higher offset at the expense of burning my eyes out, I wound up giving up on that and tuning a ford ecu instead...This particular car had small ~350cc injectors which should have had in theory no problems with idling.

So, what could cause this? My guesses are:
-There is some sort of noise coming somewhere for fueling, resulting in injector load varying around, which upon swinging lean causes a miss that can be fixed by increasing offset
-The injectors are simply so large that on gasoline they can't meter fuel in a small enough quantity, and the low injection time isn't enough to open the pintle
-The O2 sensors are lying/defective - kinda wonder this since the car despite being catless really does not stink or smoke at idle whatsoever, though could be from the -25% trims doing their best.
-Similar to point #1, there is a major problem in my tune which is causing the ECU to use one load value which causes the car to run good rev up lets say, which then causes the ECU to read a table such as MLHFM and read a value that then causes it to go lean, and so on

Unfortunately I do not have the car in front of me and am limited in what I can do right now, and the owner currently does not have a wideband or any other better means of confirming fueling 100%.

As another side note, I am working the tune that was on the car from a previous tuner (horrible practice I know), but the car behaves exactly the same when a stock M-box tune has only MLHFM, KRKTE, and TVUB modified for his hardware, so I doubt anything else weird is going on in the file.

Can you share your rom? When i tune injectors i normally setup TVUB / KRKTE / FKKVS and a couple others. If you want some help i dont mind.
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