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Author Topic: Compression Ratio Advice  (Read 8563 times)
SlashProm
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« on: May 12, 2021, 01:48:30 AM »

Hi guys, I'm finally going to be starting work on my BT build and I was hoping to get some advice on the matter of CR.
I will try and keep this short and to the point, if any more information is required please let me know.

AUQ Engine - 9.5:1 CR
GTX3071R Gen 2 DBB 0.63
Twin Scroll Manifold
Bosch EV14 1000cc Injectors
U.K Super Unleaded, which I believe is 95-99 RON Depending on where I go.
WMI Eventually

Basically I was under the impression that higher compression was better for off boost response and would give me more low down torque at the cost of some up top timing and boost.
I spent hours reading and I keep coming across posts that say these engines are seriously knock limited and it happens as soon as you go to WOT regardless of whether your spooled up or not.
Is this true? I keep reading things like "lower compression is better everywhere, just add more timing low down"

What compression ratio would you guys recommend for my setup? And should I pick up a set of BAM pistons now before I get my rods and get 144x20's instead or go with a 2.5mm head gasket, or should I get both and get closer to 8.0:1 which seems to be the "sweet spot"?

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nyet
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« Reply #1 on: May 12, 2021, 11:21:26 AM »

95RON is pretty much piss water. I'd aim for 8.5 or so.

8.0 might be overkill, though for small turbos you won't lose too much spool or off boost torque.

YMMV, its a debatable topic.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2021, 11:23:13 AM by nyet » Logged

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SlashProm
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« Reply #2 on: May 12, 2021, 12:13:13 PM »

I'm struggling to find a set of pistons on ebay atm, there's a set of BAM's for £80/$112 but there looks to be a few scratches on the skirts looking at the pics so not too happy getting them. Are there any issues with sealing when it comes to thicker head gaskets?

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/254961368718?_trkparms=aid%3D111001%26algo%3DREC.SEED%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20160908105057%26meid%3D47c4ece03035470aadc33cc3efedb53f%26pid%3D100675%26rk%3D5%26rkt%3D15%26mehot%3Dnone%26sd%3D233994998731%26itm%3D254961368718%26pmt%3D0%26noa%3D1%26pg%3D2380057%26brand%3DAudi&_trksid=p2380057.c100675.m4236&_trkparms=pageci%3A3e5e2a15-b356-11eb-b4bb-3ece3227de6f%7Cparentrq%3A620047021790a9bdee3119b0ffd5a0ff%7Ciid%3A1

I've been looking at a 2.5mm Decompression plate style mls head gasket which is around $80. I know it's not ideal and more costly when it comes to replacing it but as long as it seals it sounds like a good option. It's supposed to drop compression to 8.55:1

https://spaturbousa.com/products/copy-of-vw-vr6-r32-3-2l-24v-3-65mm-decompression-plate-mls-head-gasket
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nyet
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« Reply #3 on: May 12, 2021, 01:00:15 PM »

I've had good luck with gaskets on the 2.7t (throttlebody placement movement notwithstanding) but no experience with 1.8t motors.
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« Reply #4 on: May 12, 2021, 02:20:48 PM »

What about squish effect when you put 2.5 mm head gaket/decompresion plate. Is that too much?
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SlashProm
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« Reply #5 on: May 12, 2021, 02:37:03 PM »

Do you mean it wont squish properly around the water jackets etc because it's too thick? I think I'm going to go for that set of BAM Pistons, I was just a bit worried because the 3rd one down looked a little shabby with a couple of light scratches here and there, I'm hoping they will clean up and be good to go. Worst case scenario I just buy a single 1 for a little extra. I'd much rather go 9.0:1 with a proper set of the BAM pistons rather than experiment with a thicker head gasket. I just figured here is a good place to ask before I buy anything, as I know this forum is full of BT builders that daily these cars and I value your opinions.

I'd also have the option to try the HG or an inbetween OEM and the 2.5mm thickness in the future if I wanted more like 8.5:1 etc
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prj
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« Reply #6 on: May 12, 2021, 03:55:38 PM »

With that turbo 7.5 on 95 RON. But that will start feeling shitty off-boost. You don't want to go lower than 8.0 on stuff driven every day, because below that you start to actually feel the effects of low CR.
8.0 on 99 only.

Any higher won't make power and will run into severe EGT issues.
That turbo will run 2.3+ bar boost on this engine, and since it's port injected you need a very low CR to be able to run that boost on pump fuel. The dynamic compression is just too high.

Also IIRC AUQ is a small port head, you need a big port head from AMK/BAM.
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Blazius
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« Reply #7 on: May 12, 2021, 04:24:29 PM »

I actually run 10.3 on my converted engine still, but its nothing crazy like you are planning to do, only 0.5bar on t04e. on 95 sometimes 98 ron(european/russian gas). Still got aight timing , ofcourse lambda is decently rich. AEB head with VVT too. Daily for 2 years now.. but changes are coming.

Obviously if you could you'd wanna keep the highest CR you can but if you dont have access to good gas(with wallet ofcourse too) or toulene maybe, then yeah I'd forget and just go for boost/timing with lower CR. oh and get VVT if you dont have it already.

Once I'll start pushing higher levels I am contemplating on what do too, because I might wanna bore the engine to 82.5 because I have a set of pistons made for 20v with 82.5mm with high CR. But I have access to toulene too thats that. Future plans anyways we'll see.

Also I do not think you'd have any issues with squish with lowering plate, the 1.8T headbolts are pretty much gold until like big power territory, so they must have some decent clamping force. VR5T/VR6T run decompression plates without issues AFAIK.


Also a warning SPA shipping is a lot to europe afaik. I believe on ebay you can find thicker decompression HG's for 1.8T's when I checked few years back. Also BAM is a small port head.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2021, 04:28:31 PM by Blazius » Logged
SlashProm
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« Reply #8 on: May 13, 2021, 12:38:20 AM »

I'll be running a maximum of 22 psi until I get everything dialled in anyways. I don't want to start attempting 5120 hacks until I get everything else right, engine bedded in and running stable at a reasonable boost level. I remember reading somewhere that the small port head is good up to 500 bhp and actually helps with bottom end torque. AUQ is also a small port VVT afaik. Bam is small port non-vvt.

The plan is to do injectors, pump, maf housing, exhaust valves and rods. Once I start pushing for big boost and power I'll add things like WMI and valve springs, clutch etc as the money comes in.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2021, 12:41:49 AM by SlashProm » Logged
BlackT
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« Reply #9 on: May 13, 2021, 01:19:29 AM »

Do you mean it wont squish properly around the water jackets etc because it's too thick? I think I'm going to go for that set of BAM Pistons, I was just a bit worried because the 3rd one down looked a little shabby with a couple of light scratches here and there, I'm hoping they will clean up and be good to go. Worst case scenario I just buy a single 1 for a little extra. I'd much rather go 9.0:1 with a proper set of the BAM pistons rather than experiment with a thicker head gasket. I just figured here is a good place to ask before I buy anything, as I know this forum is full of BT builders that daily these cars and I value your opinions.

I'd also have the option to try the HG or an inbetween OEM and the 2.5mm thickness in the future if I wanted more like 8.5:1 etc
My focus was on squish band
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/8f/Squish_band.svg/1200px-Squish_band.svg.png

But on 5V engine there is not much squish area, sii I think it wont effect too much on that.

BAM have same CR as any other 1.8T acording to ETKA, so piston crown schould be same? Or I am wrong
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prj
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« Reply #10 on: May 13, 2021, 01:22:25 AM »

I'll be running a maximum of 22 psi until I get everything dialled in anyways. I don't want to start attempting 5120 hacks until I get everything else right, engine bedded in and running stable at a reasonable boost level. I remember reading somewhere that the small port head is good up to 500 bhp and actually helps with bottom end torque. AUQ is also a small port VVT afaik. Bam is small port non-vvt.

The plan is to do injectors, pump, maf housing, exhaust valves and rods. Once I start pushing for big boost and power I'll add things like WMI and valve springs, clutch etc as the money comes in.
Yeah, I forgot, only the AEB and AUQ were big port.
Forget stock clutch, waste of time. And CR needs to be 8.0, so you need to change the pistons as well.
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Blazius
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« Reply #11 on: May 13, 2021, 05:56:10 AM »

I remember reading somewhere that the small port head is good up to 500 bhp and actually helps with bottom end torque. AUQ is also a small port VVT afaik. Bam is small port non-vvt.


The big port head is simply better for your turbo, if you want one get from ADR(early version, will require 1 cam change atleast), AEB, AGU or AJL(AUQ is small port too yes). Prj said in the past that the big port head is a better design which definitely goes against the grain, tho havent seen concrete comparsion between small and big  I tend to agree, the runners look better into the combustion chamber., also the latest ever 20V head had the big port design too(i think even enlarged, havent measured) wasnt on a 1.8 though Smiley I think the velocity loss talk came from the fact that most people who put the big port heads havent added vvt lol, since all of them came without VVT, so the loss would be visible vs a small port head with vvt on the cars that have it enabled, or something along those lines I guess.

BAM have same CR as any other 1.8T acording to ETKA, so piston crown schould be same? Or I am wrong

You are wrong yes, the BAM runs 8.9(~9) CR, the pistons have bigger combustion chamber diameter and lower depth too.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2021, 05:58:10 AM by Blazius » Logged
SlashProm
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« Reply #12 on: May 15, 2021, 03:40:45 AM »

Found a German supplier for decompression plates. They offer a lot of different thicknesses, from 1.5mm-3mm so from 9.27:1 - 8.23:1 Assuming AUQ 9.5:1 starting point.

The effects with the 9.0:1 BAM Pistons would net anywhere from 8.80:1 - 7.87:1. I was thinking of picking up the BAM pistons anyway so I don't have to go too thick on the gasket. Plus if I ever decide to get a set of aftermarket forged pistons, the 20mm wrist pins would probably be better supported.

A good combination looks like BAM Pistons with the 2.5mm gasket, which should net 8.15:1, My head has already had a light skim, so I'm assuming it'll end up slightly higher, maybe 8.2:1 or 8.25:1 etc. Seems like a good compromise
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kubawd
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« Reply #13 on: May 15, 2021, 04:21:19 AM »

I chose a similar solution in my 2.7 AGB with K04 RS6 Hybrids. It has Mahle pistons with 9.0:1 compression(stock was 9.3), +0.5mm in diameter + 034 Motorsport headgaskets with 0.5 CR drop. Heads(2.8l big port) were already shaved 3 times, so i assume im somewhere around 8.6-8,7CR. I already put 40k km on this setup and it works great.
Moreover, BAM is small port, but it has VVT.
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nupustas
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« Reply #14 on: May 15, 2021, 11:19:35 PM »

And how about spooling time. I have 2 cars with same turbos, same exhaust manifolds, 1,8t engines. One car is AEB stock bottom and head, compression ratio 9,5:1. Another car 06A block, AEB(big ported head), S3 pistons and stronger rods - compression ratio 9,0:1. With 9,0:1 ratio,  turbo spools about 500rpm later than with 9,5:1. It;s normal, or maybe problem somewhere else?
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