ThomasHH
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« on: May 25, 2022, 08:23:56 AM »
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I have Audi S3 8P 265HP (MED9.1) and run it on 1.5bar / 0.82 Lambda till 6000RPM with no-knock (sometimes -3degree retard on one-two cylinders) and result of 340HP.
What extra horsepower (5HP, 10HP, or 20HP) will I actually achieve if:
1. Rise the advance.
2. Lower retardation per knock event maps.
3. Lower delta angle offset for average retard.
4. Lower the speed at which the ignition angle is phased back in.
I tried several changes but can not really feel any effect.
Do those changes really work or they just have a placebo effect?
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nyet
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« Reply #1 on: May 25, 2022, 05:06:24 PM »
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Impossible to answer w/o a dyno. But if you do it wrong you risk motor damage.
the notion you should be able to "feel" it is ridiculous.
Log, or dyno.
ECUxPlot has a hp/tq estimator.
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ME7.1 tuning guideECUx PlotME7Sum checksumTrim heatmap toolPlease do not ask me for tunes. I'm here to help people make their own. Do not PM me technical questions! Please, ask all questions on the forums! Doing so will ensure the next person with the same issue gets the opportunity to learn from your ex
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ThomasHH
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« Reply #2 on: May 26, 2022, 04:08:54 AM »
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Impossible to answer w/o a dyno.
Yes, it is possible to give an answer, but from someone with experience, not like you. But if you do it wrong you risk motor damage.
Really? the notion you should be able to "feel" it is ridiculous.
ECUxPlot has a hp/tq estimator.
The notion ECUxPlot should be able to "estimate" is ridiculous. |
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fknbrkn
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mk4 1.8T AUM
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« Reply #3 on: May 26, 2022, 05:15:21 AM »
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Youve got nothing due to no knock events on a stock value
And less retarding when its knocks due to bad fuel or iat
Thats logic question, no experience needed
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ThomasHH
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« Reply #4 on: May 26, 2022, 07:38:40 AM »
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Youve got nothing due to no knock events on a stock value
And less retarding when its knocks due to bad fuel or iat
Thats logic question, no experience needed
I mean to increase the advance and reduce the retard step. Now I have 340HP on 10-degree advance without retard. If I increase it to 16-degree I will have a retard around 6-degree and I will drive again to 10-degree advance. If I reduce the retard to be only 2-degree (not 6-degree) I will drive at 14-degree. And here I need experience: What will be the effect of these extra 4 degrees on my setup? 5HP or 20 HP? |
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nyet
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« Reply #5 on: May 26, 2022, 12:51:43 PM »
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Yes, it is possible to give an answer, but from someone with experience, not like you.
lol k Really?
yes, really. Do you really want prj here to admonish you? The notion ECUxPlot should be able to "estimate" is ridiculous.
You refuse use a dyno. What other tools do you have in mind? You could post logs that show acceleration, and compare those... which is exactly what the tq/hp estimator does. You won't know absolute HP (bogus anyway, even on a dyno) but relative performance will be immediately obvious. It isn't even a matter of estimation. And here I need experience: What will be the effect of these extra 4 degrees on my setup? 5HP or 20 HP?
FFS Consider lowering boost, compression, using better gas, etc. etc. as well. All which you can (and should) verify on a dyno. Failing that, logs, which should be obvious. |
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« Last Edit: May 26, 2022, 12:56:07 PM by nyet »
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ME7.1 tuning guideECUx PlotME7Sum checksumTrim heatmap toolPlease do not ask me for tunes. I'm here to help people make their own. Do not PM me technical questions! Please, ask all questions on the forums! Doing so will ensure the next person with the same issue gets the opportunity to learn from your ex
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BlackT
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« Reply #6 on: May 26, 2022, 02:16:03 PM »
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Turn off KR complete and give him advance as much as you want.  you will get extra 50 hp What a noob You have no clue how IC engine work, and how Monotronic KR work |
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R32Dude
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« Reply #7 on: May 26, 2022, 06:02:27 PM »
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Buy the Dragy device and use that on the same road to test your mods.
I found that a few degrees retard in one or two cylinders occasionally, is the same or better than extra timing with quick acting KR but with none of the risks. Play it safe bro.
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nyet
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« Reply #8 on: May 26, 2022, 06:20:50 PM »
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In my testing (long ago, easily 20 years ago now), much easier to get more power by
1) reducing boost req
2) pulling back requested timing pre-emptively
3) more fuel
4) whatever it takes to lower iat
5) octane boost (toluene)
i can't think of a single log/dyno comparo that showed good gains by numbing KR; risk/reward just wasnt there.
caveats
1) this was on the 2.7t with stock compression
2) high iats
3) crap gasoline (US 91 oct)
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ME7.1 tuning guideECUx PlotME7Sum checksumTrim heatmap toolPlease do not ask me for tunes. I'm here to help people make their own. Do not PM me technical questions! Please, ask all questions on the forums! Doing so will ensure the next person with the same issue gets the opportunity to learn from your ex
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Blazius
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« Reply #9 on: May 27, 2022, 10:50:18 AM »
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In my testing (long ago, easily 20 years ago now), much easier to get more power by
1) reducing boost req
2) pulling back requested timing pre-emptively
3) more fuel
4) whatever it takes to lower iat
5) octane boost (toluene)
i can't think of a single log/dyno comparo that showed good gains by numbing KR; risk/reward just wasnt there.
caveats
1) this was on the 2.7t with stock compression
2) high iats
3) crap gasoline (US 91 oct)
I mean regardless that applies to any ICE really, specially the ones that this forum touches on. Given this is an FSI engine its a bit different but man.. Hell just look at BMW M series motor (S58) compression drop to 9.3 from 10.2 to run extra power.. You'd be surprised how MANY people are still trying to run 30 psi on pump fuel on stock CR 1.8Ts and 2.7ts its mental and if you tell them its wrong and not optimal they go crazy.. BUT people have done it and worked fiiiiine, its like they forgot VAG lowered CR just by going to 225 /240hp to 9 and 400mbar of extra boost, HMMM I wonder why that was in an age where emissions and stuff were the main focus. Also lol at esimation part.. refuse to dyno, so make logs and compare them, thats what you get a COMPARISON, or yes buy a dragy/racelogic and do it with that.. Given that we can log rpm and we can calculate acceleration vs time, yes it can estimate sheesh. |
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cherry
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« Reply #10 on: May 27, 2022, 12:08:25 PM »
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The problem is not compression ratio from these engine, it´s only 9.8:1. These engine even perform better using a BWA 10.3:1 + K04. You can run BWA + K04 with 15° advance at 6000, with 1,3bar only same power. Take a look to Audi 5 cylinders CEPA, CZGB, DAZA with 10:1. The problem here seems to be too much boost which produce a lot of exhaust pressure! With even lower lambda you will get less power in these engine. If you are not too hot with 0.82 do not enrich more. The K04 is borgwarner with high temperatur cast...
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IamwhoIam
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« Reply #11 on: May 27, 2022, 12:21:08 PM »
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You seem to already know it all, so why do you waste your own precious time asking questions here when you already have ALL the answers?
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I have no logs because I have a boost gauge (makes things easier)
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ThomasHH
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« Reply #12 on: May 27, 2022, 11:45:39 PM »
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In my testing (long ago, easily 20 years ago now), much easier to get more power by
1) reducing boost req
2) pulling back requested timing pre-emptively
3) more fuel
4) whatever it takes to lower iat
5) octane boost (toluene)
i can't think of a single log/dyno comparo that showed good gains by numbing KR; risk/reward just wasnt there.
caveats
1) this was on the 2.7t with stock compression
2) high iats
3) crap gasoline (US 91 oct)
Buy the Dragy device and use that on the same road to test your mods.
I found that a few degrees retard in one or two cylinders occasionally, is the same or better than extra timing with quick acting KR but with none of the risks. Play it safe bro.
Thanks for these answers. This is already relevant on the topic of sharing experiences and voting for or against manipulating the standard retard. Why buy a dyno or dragy to test something that you guys have already tested? Just share your experience. yes, really. Do you really want prj here to admonish you?
Regarding prj, we are all waiting for him to admonish me and in the next post after that to share his experience which will really help. I'm sure he prj made thousands of 2.0TFSIs and will hint if there is any benefit from manipulating the standard retard and in which cases? |
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ThomasHH
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« Reply #13 on: May 27, 2022, 11:52:25 PM »
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In fact, years ago when I was active in this forum, there were many more people who helped and shared experiences. At the moment, all the forums, including this one, are filled with people with purchased knowledge, watching for other people to whom to resell this knowledge.  |
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ThomasHH
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« Reply #14 on: June 01, 2022, 10:45:06 PM »
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Well, to summarize for those who read:
From the experience of "R32Dude" and "nyet" and the tacit consent of the "prj" it follows that there are no benefits if changing the standard retard.
This seems to be another change in all files from "pro tuners" that makes no sense but is still widely used.
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