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Author Topic: Nefmoto community project: Definitive M3.8.X guide  (Read 7457 times)
marantzvieta
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« on: July 20, 2022, 05:29:27 AM »

Hello everybody!

As the title says, I'm trying to develop a guide to understand and modify this POS, complicated as heck and that has information all over the place and not very verified. My intention is to have all of the information possible, verified, and giving credits to the people that have contributed to do so. So noobs like me and future generations can still make their own mods.

After seeing most tuning businesses nowadays will only copy-paste stuff for a typical stage 1, I decided I did not want to spend the 600€ on someting I could tackle myself (and do better) with a bit of time. I've been wandering through this forum and others, reading very useful information, from what seems very interesting and experienced people, and a few months ago I decided to start this small project to try to clarify everthing involved in modifying this ecu, document my process and give something back to the community down the road: a comprehensive, useful guide where to find all (or as much as possible) information in just one place and verified as much as we can.

DISCLAIMER: besides my best efforts to try to understand and provide good information about this ecu, I take no responsability of the damages that may occur to you ecu, car, whatever item of yours with the usage of this info, procedures, etc... Every case is very unique and be concious that what may apply to most of us, may not apply to your case. So verify and re-check everything, and act responsibly and accordingly.

SO: I've started this excel file with several pages where information will be classified. I STRONGLY SUGGEST all the information being donated to this file, to be posted so I can personally review it, test it, and update the file with it and credit the people involved, so we have ONLY ONE TRUSTED FILE, the one in this OP.

Excel pages will classify info for:
-Maps & general info
-Pictures (related to Maps)
-M3.8.X operation
-Stage 1
-Fuel
-Boost
-Ignition
-Big Stuff
-RPM limiter
-Pops - Bangs

If you consider sections must be modified, added, deleted, etc... please let me know and I will consider. I invite you to edit the file and make your on personal too, so you can organise yourself and document your very own ecus. This excel is developed on a good known DAMOS a german tuning company gave for free to me as these files were no longer profitable for them. Ecu and software numbers are 8D0907558E - 0261204805, files also updated with the excel file.

UPDATES:

v0.1 - 20/7/2022

The following pages and the information in it need to be completed and verified, in order to have a good startpoint to understand how the ecu works, what map is and does what, how to look for stuff...:

-Maps & Info
-Pictures
-M3.8.X Operation
-Stage 1 maps

v0.3 - 28/2/2023

Verified information:

- Pictures
- Logging
- Stage 1 (map list)
- Fuel (injector DC calculator, AFR ratios list)

Added: "Welcome" section with info about this file, ecu and tuning tools required for M3.8.x ecus. "Logging" section with Groups, Parameters and Values able to be logged (with 558E ecu and most Euro cars) so we can identify quickly logging groups and what info to expect before going into the car or what info we should look at in our logs.


I would like to thank everybody in advance, who contribute, who just come here for information, who try stuff in their cars... as everything helps here.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2023, 01:34:36 PM by marantzvieta » Logged
marantzvieta
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« Reply #1 on: August 14, 2022, 11:51:03 AM »

Hi folks! I've posted a new question about steps with LDSMXN and KFLDS in order to continue with the guide. Go have a look, hope somebody can help Smiley

http://nefariousmotorsports.com/forum/index.php?topic=20926.0title=

Thanks in advance!!!!!!!!!!
« Last Edit: August 14, 2022, 11:55:45 AM by marantzvieta » Logged
shiousu
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« Reply #2 on: December 25, 2022, 03:09:52 PM »

Nothing to add..but excellent work mate. I have searched high and low and this is the best info.
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ZpiXDK
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« Reply #3 on: February 02, 2023, 04:47:16 AM »

KFLF is not a lambda map as described on Audi-Sport.
-It's a correction map, so it will correct the injection times.

So before you tune any of these old car without wideband, you need to buy a wideband so you can monitor AFR.

Statements as "Crancks all values up to 12.75" is not the way to go.
-You never want to run on the ECU limit, and if you just set it to max, you have no overboost detection.

KFZW " Crancks all Maf limit up to 2040" - Theres no MAF limit, it's ignition angle map.
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You want some tuning with that pop and bang?
-Nahh it’s not good for the engine
marantzvieta
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« Reply #4 on: February 03, 2023, 06:45:30 PM »

Hi, thank you ZpiXDK for having a look at the file. I've typed in the corrections you made, will upload it tomorrow. Wink

I have a wideband and boost sensor already at home and waiting to be installed soon, although thank you for the advice.

My latest concerns with understanding this ecu are these two, I will be very appreciated if you can provide some input about how they work:


- How does KFLDS and LDSMXN interact to manage boost? Isn't KFLDTV supposed to control boost by N75 duty cycles? I still don't get how or why does ms/umdr (load) translate to boost.

- If KFLF is a correction map for the injection times, are KFLTLWS and KFLFAV the base maps for KFLF to correct from? In other words, the base maps for injection?


This ECU is a pain in the ass but I'll get it to work. Thank you very much in advance!


KFLF is not a lambda map as described on Audi-Sport.
-It's a correction map, so it will correct the injection times.

So before you tune any of these old car without wideband, you need to buy a wideband so you can monitor AFR.

Statements as "Crancks all values up to 12.75" is not the way to go.
-You never want to run on the ECU limit, and if you just set it to max, you have no overboost detection.

KFZW " Crancks all Maf limit up to 2040" - Theres no MAF limit, it's ignition angle map.

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ZpiXDK
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« Reply #5 on: February 04, 2023, 08:29:33 AM »

In the thread on Audi Sport it's explained (https://www.audi-sport.net/xf/threads/1-8t-m3-8-3-tuning.355810/)

Old Bosch Mx is Cable throttle (Later they became MEx, Motronic with Egas)
M3.8 has no MAP sensor and only work on MAF were it convert MAF into Injection times and call it load in ms.

So M3.8 only knows how much air is going in, but the air going in is regulated by the thottle and the turbo.
-Without the turbo, you will only be able to achive around 5ms load.
-KFLDTV control the wastegate, If you request more load in KFLDS, you also need to adjust KFLDSTV to achive it, and if you go over LDSMXN it will cut boost and flag overboost.
-KFLDTV is a base map, it gets controlled by a PID. so if KFLDS don't meet requested, the PID will control the wastegate.
-KFLDP, KFLDI, DLDRN is the P, I, D maps.
-KFLDS has the factor 0,05 to show load in ms, if you change it to 10,24 you get an approximate MAP value. (I would still use load in ms.)

Ti = (Tl * [C,D,E...]) + Tv

Ti = Real injection time in ms
Tl = Load - Theoretical injection time in ms to achive lambda 1. (Comes from Tl = Q / (n * Ki))
Tv = TVUB - Injector latancy
C,D,E... = Correction maps

KFLF and KFLFAV are both correction maps, were 1,00 = 100% = no correction.
1,10 = 110% = +10% correction
0,90= 90% = -10% correction

"Tl = Load - Theoretical injection time in ms to achive lambda 1."
-So you request Tl in KFLDS.

"C,D,E... = Correction maps"
-Correction is applied in KFLF. So if we want to go under lambda 1 we need to add more fuel.

"Ti = Real injection time in ms"
-Ti is the result + TVUB.

So when you have your wideband and can log AFR, you know if you have to increase KFLF to get more fuel or decrease KFLF to get less fuel.

KFTLWS is the same as KFLDS, but KFTLWS is without MAF and is only for limp mode so it should not be tuned.
-"Tl = Q / (n * Ki)" without the MAF you are missing Q.

Hi, thank you ZpiXDK for having a look at the file. I've typed in the corrections you made, will upload it tomorrow. Wink

I have a wideband and boost sensor already at home and waiting to be installed soon, although thank you for the advice.

My latest concerns with understanding this ecu are these two, I will be very appreciated if you can provide some input about how they work:


- How does KFLDS and LDSMXN interact to manage boost? Isn't KFLDTV supposed to control boost by N75 duty cycles? I still don't get how or why does ms/umdr (load) translate to boost.

- If KFLF is a correction map for the injection times, are KFLTLWS and KFLFAV the base maps for KFLF to correct from? In other words, the base maps for injection?


This ECU is a pain in the ass but I'll get it to work. Thank you very much in advance!


Logged

You want some tuning with that pop and bang?
-Nahh it’s not good for the engine
marantzvieta
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« Reply #6 on: February 06, 2023, 01:06:19 PM »

Hi ZpiXDK,

Thank you very much for your explanations. I did read the audi-sport page you pasted but some of your explications have thrown in some light.

- From what I have deducted, am I correct if I affirm that the PID maps are what convert load to boost by modulating the DCs in KFLDTV? (asking because of these formulas/units I've seen in the map properties, see attached below in the blue circles):



- And, with no disrispect intended about your explanations, but are you sure LDSMXN is the map responible to flag overboost? From what I had read in several places is a load limiter and the map that flags overboost is the 6x6 KHFMLDMX map, where says max airflow at a given RPM. Just asking because if not, KFLDS that has several points higher than LDSMXN in it's stock form, would be throwing dtcs for oem programmings, isn't it?


Again, thank you very much for your help. I really enjoy this forum.

Kind regards,


In the thread on Audi Sport it's explained (https://www.audi-sport.net/xf/threads/1-8t-m3-8-3-tuning.355810/)

Old Bosch Mx is Cable throttle (Later they became MEx, Motronic with Egas)
M3.8 has no MAP sensor and only work on MAF were it convert MAF into Injection times and call it load in ms.

So M3.8 only knows how much air is going in, but the air going in is regulated by the thottle and the turbo.
-Without the turbo, you will only be able to achive around 5ms load.
-KFLDTV control the wastegate, If you request more load in KFLDS, you also need to adjust KFLDSTV to achive it, and if you go over LDSMXN it will cut boost and flag overboost.
-KFLDTV is a base map, it gets controlled by a PID. so if KFLDS don't meet requested, the PID will control the wastegate.
-KFLDP, KFLDI, DLDRN is the P, I, D maps.
-KFLDS has the factor 0,05 to show load in ms, if you change it to 10,24 you get an approximate MAP value. (I would still use load in ms.)

Ti = (Tl * [C,D,E...]) + Tv

Ti = Real injection time in ms
Tl = Load - Theoretical injection time in ms to achive lambda 1. (Comes from Tl = Q / (n * Ki))
Tv = TVUB - Injector latancy
C,D,E... = Correction maps

KFLF and KFLFAV are both correction maps, were 1,00 = 100% = no correction.
1,10 = 110% = +10% correction
0,90= 90% = -10% correction

"Tl = Load - Theoretical injection time in ms to achive lambda 1."
-So you request Tl in KFLDS.

"C,D,E... = Correction maps"
-Correction is applied in KFLF. So if we want to go under lambda 1 we need to add more fuel.

"Ti = Real injection time in ms"
-Ti is the result + TVUB.

So when you have your wideband and can log AFR, you know if you have to increase KFLF to get more fuel or decrease KFLF to get less fuel.

KFTLWS is the same as KFLDS, but KFTLWS is without MAF and is only for limp mode so it should not be tuned.
-"Tl = Q / (n * Ki)" without the MAF you are missing Q.

« Last Edit: February 06, 2023, 01:21:52 PM by marantzvieta » Logged
ZpiXDK
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« Reply #7 on: February 06, 2023, 01:43:57 PM »

Hi ZpiXDK,

Thank you very much for your explanations. I did read the audi-sport page you pasted but some of your explications have thrown in some light.

1. - From what I have deducted, am I correct if I affirm that the PID maps are what convert load to boost by modulating the DCs in KFLDTV? (asking because of these formulas/units I've seen in the map properties, see attached below in the blue circles):



2. - And, with no disrispect intended about your explanations, but are you sure LDSMXN is the map responible to flag overboost? From what I had read in several places is a load limiter and the map that flags overboost is the 6x6 KHFMLDMX map, where says max airflow at a given RPM. Just asking because if not, KFLDS that has several points higher than LDSMXN in it's stock form, would be throwing dtcs for oem programmings, isn't it?


Again, thank you very much for your help. I really enjoy this forum.

Kind regards,



1. There is nothing that convert load to boost, KFLDTV and PID is to control the turbo.
There is the build in formula that convert air mass into injection time:

Tl = Q / (n * Ki)

Tl = Load - Theoretical injection time in ms to achive lambda 1
Q = airflow
n = engine speed
Ki = Injector constant

So the Air mass going into the ECU get divided by (current RPM multiplyed by Injector constant) will output Load.

So when you open the throttle and the turbo start spinning, the Air mass going in is higher and the Load output will be higher.

If you look at KFLDTV, you will see the Axis is RPM/Throttle position. and you see in KFLDS the Axis is also RPM/Throttle position.
-That's why I wrote "If you request more load in KFLDS, you also need to adjust KFLDSTV to achive it"

KFLDSTV is the base map for the waste gate, when the load request don't meet current load, the PID will regulate the wastegate to meet requested load
-P+I Maps has wastegate % in map and Axis RPM/Load

2. LDSMXN is the map that will flag overboost if the current load gets over the load in LDSMXN.
-If you log the car in stock form, I'm sure you will not log load higher then LDSMXN
-You could also try to edit the map lower, to see what happens Wink
Logged

You want some tuning with that pop and bang?
-Nahh it’s not good for the engine
marantzvieta
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« Reply #8 on: February 08, 2023, 07:10:11 PM »

Hi ZpiXDK, got it now!! Thank you so much for explaining how it works. Will definetly have a look at the LDSMXN map and make tests to understand it.

Will report back with results. Kind regards!!

1. There is nothing that convert load to boost, KFLDTV and PID is to control the turbo.
There is the build in formula that convert air mass into injection time:

Tl = Q / (n * Ki)

Tl = Load - Theoretical injection time in ms to achive lambda 1
Q = airflow
n = engine speed
Ki = Injector constant

So the Air mass going into the ECU get divided by (current RPM multiplyed by Injector constant) will output Load.

So when you open the throttle and the turbo start spinning, the Air mass going in is higher and the Load output will be higher.

If you look at KFLDTV, you will see the Axis is RPM/Throttle position. and you see in KFLDS the Axis is also RPM/Throttle position.
-That's why I wrote "If you request more load in KFLDS, you also need to adjust KFLDSTV to achive it"

KFLDSTV is the base map for the waste gate, when the load request don't meet current load, the PID will regulate the wastegate to meet requested load
-P+I Maps has wastegate % in map and Axis RPM/Load

2. LDSMXN is the map that will flag overboost if the current load gets over the load in LDSMXN.
-If you log the car in stock form, I'm sure you will not log load higher then LDSMXN
-You could also try to edit the map lower, to see what happens Wink
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marantzvieta
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« Reply #9 on: February 19, 2023, 03:54:58 PM »

Hi again ZpiXDK,  I did what you said to log my car to see if I was going to get higher values than LDSMXN, and I did, have a look at the log I made (attached). I made two runs and both were the same.

I logged groups 002 014 and 015 to see also ignition retardation just in case, but it turned out to be a very healthy engine and tune. I am runing 180hp AJL stock values in my stock 150hp file from the AEB. (see picture below).



Am I missing something? Because I don't get what LDSMXN does if I am logging values over what it says... Also, the Injection Corrected period went up to 21.68ms. This isn't normal, right?

Thank you very much for your help.

Kind regards,


1. There is nothing that convert load to boost, KFLDTV and PID is to control the turbo.
There is the build in formula that convert air mass into injection time:

Tl = Q / (n * Ki)

Tl = Load - Theoretical injection time in ms to achive lambda 1
Q = airflow
n = engine speed
Ki = Injector constant

So the Air mass going into the ECU get divided by (current RPM multiplyed by Injector constant) will output Load.

So when you open the throttle and the turbo start spinning, the Air mass going in is higher and the Load output will be higher.

If you look at KFLDTV, you will see the Axis is RPM/Throttle position. and you see in KFLDS the Axis is also RPM/Throttle position.
-That's why I wrote "If you request more load in KFLDS, you also need to adjust KFLDSTV to achive it"

KFLDSTV is the base map for the waste gate, when the load request don't meet current load, the PID will regulate the wastegate to meet requested load
-P+I Maps has wastegate % in map and Axis RPM/Load

2. LDSMXN is the map that will flag overboost if the current load gets over the load in LDSMXN.
-If you log the car in stock form, I'm sure you will not log load higher then LDSMXN
-You could also try to edit the map lower, to see what happens Wink
« Last Edit: February 19, 2023, 04:06:29 PM by marantzvieta » Logged
marantzvieta
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« Reply #10 on: February 28, 2023, 05:34:38 PM »

Hi everybody,

just added v0.3 to the OP with updated and revised information. Go have a look! ( http://nefariousmotorsports.com/forum/index.php?topic=20919.0 ) I still need help with stuff you will see to be completed in the file and with questions here in this thread. ¿somebody williing to keep helping?

Thank you very much in advance!

Kind regards


Quote
The changes are the following:

v0.3 - 28/2/2023

Verified information:

- Pictures
- Logging
- Stage 1 (map list)
- Fuel (injector DC calculator, AFR ratios list)

Added: "Welcome" section with info about this file, ecu and tuning tools required for M3.8.x ecus. "Logging" section with Groups, Parameters and Values able to be logged (with 558E ecu and most Euro cars) so we can identify quickly logging groups and what info to expect before going into the car or what info we should look at in our logs
« Last Edit: February 28, 2023, 05:40:38 PM by marantzvieta » Logged
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