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Author Topic: Part throttle jerking  (Read 55140 times)
nyet
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« Reply #15 on: August 23, 2012, 01:14:57 PM »

That said scaling up IOP towards the end shouldn't cause any part-throttle issues.

That conflicts with my understanding of torque monitoring, as well as logs of torque intervention.
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NOTORIOUS VR
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« Reply #16 on: August 23, 2012, 01:15:48 PM »

you're right about that Smiley
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« Reply #17 on: August 24, 2012, 01:57:07 PM »

Problem solved after lot of reading in this dream forum and corrections on KFMILR mostly.
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« Reply #18 on: August 24, 2012, 07:47:48 PM »

You want to REDUCE IOP, not increase it.

^^ that makes no sense, my tunes have always been stronger when increasing IOP when you want more TQ especially in the higher end of the load scale.

KFMIOP is almost stictly used in various forms of intervention and torque reserve.

The only positive effect it has is via mimax -> mifa -> milsol.

From what I can tell, KFMIRL has no effect on KFMIOP and IOP's only effect on IRL is indirectly as an input via milsol.

I am starting to think we would be better off not even touching IOP.
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nyet
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« Reply #19 on: August 24, 2012, 07:50:05 PM »

I am starting to think we would be better off not even touching IOP.

And you'd get torque intervention if you bumped too much of IRL.

The effect is well documented.

The only real solution is to leave most of IRL alone, except for the top lines, and shift the axis of IOP around accordingly.
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« Reply #20 on: August 24, 2012, 09:14:34 PM »

And you'd get torque intervention if you bumped too much of IRL.

The effect is well documented.

The only real solution is to leave most of IRL alone, except for the top lines, and shift the axis of IOP around accordingly.

How?? Where??

People say that but I have never seen it substantiated.

The only way IRL can affect torque intervention is if rlsol = rlmin.

That's it.

The only relationship I can find between IRL and IOP is milsol.
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NOTORIOUS VR
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« Reply #21 on: August 25, 2012, 08:45:43 AM »

I stumbled upon this a few nights ago... very interesting read FWIW:

Quote
Purpose of the Optimal Torque Map

What it does, how it does it, why it does it, and how to make it work for you!



Purpose: Take the calculated torque value at a given RPM & load, then compare it to the value that is present on the map. The ECU then corrects for the difference by adjusting the 02 correction value, the requested boost value, and the timing value.

02 correction value: This value is the change in lambda that the ECU requires to reach it's current TARGET lambda, If an 02 correction value of 0 is recorded that means 1 of 2 things has occurred.

1. Your datalogging and reading values from the engine just turning on, the engine requires some time to begin correcting through the 02 correction value, lambda sensors must heat up etc,etc.

2. The correction the ECU needs is SO great it has gone off the 25% range the 02 correction has to offer. A significant change in the value in this area is going to be required.
This map is in place to check the MAF sensor's readings to the ECU. The Mutiplitive and Additive fuel trims are derived from the 02 correction values, The ECU then uses these fuel trims, along with timng and requested boost to effect the Actual Torque of the car so that the driver does not feel the effects of air tempurature, increased load driving(going up hill) and such on the power production of the engine.

You have to understand, bosch doesn't trust the millions of people who bought cars with their ME7 ecu system in it to understand the adverse effects real life variables have on the torque production of a turbocharged engine. What they DO understand is that if the average person presses the pedal down 50% of the way, they want the car to "FEEL" like it is producing 50% of it's power wether your driving up to the mountians or passing some one on the freeway in florida.

*in the average drivers mind 50% pedal means 50% power*

Most of this simulation is processed and converted by the ECU on the Acceleration pedal map and the target filling map.

In order for the ECU to know whether or not the it needs to make the engine produce more or less torque in order to comply with drivers demand of current Load(value measured by MAF or calculated if running mafless), it needs a value to check against. This is the value you are adjusting on the optimal torque map.

Now since the optimal torque map effects many variables off a single value, it is safe to assume that you can adjust for 02 correction and know that the effect of requested boost and timing from the optimal torque map will also be in line and if you have problems in these areas after getting fueling set you need to begin to adjust other maps to affect those values.


Types of Fuel Trims and how they work

The ECU has 2 Fuel Trims: Additive and Multiplicative both are applied globally to the fueling but they differ in HOW they are applied

Additive: A static value applied to the trim UNAFFECTED by changes in load.

Multiplicative: A value applied to the trim that is AFFECTED by changes in load.

The additive trim is used to make corrects that are happening at the same rate irregardless of load or at lower load levels like idle and cruising

the Multiplicative trim is used to make corrections that happen at an increasing rate as load is increased and in the higher load ranges.

What all this means is that when your tuning your 02 correction values you want them to be ether ALL positive or ALL negative.

If your 02 values swing between +/- your optimal torque maps need some work.

THe Ecu can only make a trim if a problem is reoccuring.

If your 02 correction value at the same load at
2000rpm is -5
2500rpm 3
3000rpm -4
3500rpm 2

while is might not seem to bad in reality this is not only improperly tuned, your actually causing the ECU to fight against your tune when it creates it's fuel trims!

This is what the ecu is thinking

2000rpm take away fuel
**** 2500 quick add fuel
wtf 3000rpm take away fuel
seriously... 3500 add fuel

this type of adjustment does not fall in line with the 2 available adjustments the ecu can make with the fuel trims.

Obviously we want to get our fuel trims as close to 0 as possible. But it must be done in the correct way or else your going to assume your tune is spot on when in reality it's just that the ecu can't make an adjustment because your optimal torque map is so off!



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« Reply #22 on: August 25, 2012, 08:45:51 AM »

Quote
How to make this all work for your Tune
Adjusting the Optimal Torque map using 02 corrections as a guide

You MUST deactivate any corrections on your main fuel correction map, this is the pre correction map for the lambda targeting fuel algorithm and will skew results if any value but 1.0001 is present in the cell.

*Note* the values of this table compare to ACTUAL torque seen by the torque model, NOT the REQUESTED torque derived by the acceleration pedal map, I will explain the different in a different post.


*NOTE for setting up Y axis, The final column value should be the LOAD value where you car produces Maximum torque, this just happen to be the max load that my car reached... with my turbo (ported ko3s) this over shot my target filling value by 5% so while the highest value I request for load is only 200% my Y axis, last column on optimal torque is 205.5 since that is the max load my car will reach that I have seen, if it is completely unrestricted by the max VE table. This number has risen as my tune can getting more spot on, I can only assume this means I am producing more power, butt dyno agrees heavily



Do NOT fall into the trap off thinking you much adjust lower range values if you change the value of higher columns, you shouldn't have to unless you are raising the last column because of a pure 0 reading when approaching max torque, a very rare instance indeed, other wise you should not need to adjust values in lower load area's as produced torque should be the same at other load levels.

First you want to make sure there are NO recorded 0's in your datalog in the area we are going to be adjusting.

Any 0's must first be dealt with or your gonna be chasing your tail, A pure 0 is an indication of the adjustment running out of range... A BIG change will be required to bring this load and rpm point into line so that we may begin fine tuning. Use common sense with these adjustments, if your adjusting 151% load out of a max defined 200% and your opt torque value is 30%... you probably need to raise not lower to get it back scale.

*note values of 0.23 etc are perfect and infact mean your basically spot on at that point*

*NOTE* Other maps affect fuel trims so make sure you account for acceleration fueling map and it's effect on the fuel trim during sudden throttle requests. It is better to only tune portions of the opt torque map in which a steady load over a good portion of the rpm range is logged.

Now once you have no pure zero's the next step is to make sure your 02 corrections are either ALL positive or ALL negative. I shoot for negative because I rather be richer and have the ecu remove a small amount of fuel then rely on the ecu to add fuel, that's just me how I feel safer, also that's how I know I'm not "missing" out on power so to speak.

a Datalog that shows you have all the 02 correction values either positive or negative you have a choice:

Be done!, yup you could fine right here, if your getting recorded values of all negative or positive numbers your in line "enough" that the ecu can take care of the rest and you'll have a pretty decent tune.

Not be a slacker and really dial that **** in!

Okay I made a post about interpolation of points between mapped points and how the ecu comes up with these. An understand of this concept will greatly reduce your dial in time if you don't have access to an interia dyno where you can run the car at a set load through an rpm range constantly.

What your going to do is look at RPM points in the data log that you have defined on your X axis. Then check the calculated load at that point.

For MAFLESS people: *NOTE* I have not even turned the key on a mafless car let alone start to tune one this is a guess BUT I'm thinking this check would be how you would dial in your TB tables and such... You would want to make sure the calculated load matched what your spec load would be that way you know you are on the right spot on the optimal torque table. But that's tuning theory and I can't get into that atm(no time and outside of the scope of this already long and probably confusing post)

then you check the 02 correction, if it's negative your gonna to decrease the value of your optimal torque table in that cell.

Now the reason you are looking for defined RPM area's is because if you have all those in line the values in between those areas will fall in line too.

I gotta end the post here and get to class, but that's really all the basics, if you understand interpolation you can use the changing of 02 correction values to estimate what changes need to be done to cells of the map you might not have logged,

if you don't just stick to the defined values and only adjust based on calculated load, if calculated load falls between 2 defined values, average the defined values, if the calculated value is higher then average adjust the higher defined load cell, or vise versa.

Remember small adjustments are best, even with recorded zero's I would only make 5% adjustments at most

One last thing if you have Positive numbers where you have it marked as 100% opt torque(last column is the only place this is gonna happen) you need to RAISE the Y axis value of the last column! The car is telling you if produced max torque at a higher load level then the defined axis you either

need to bring the axis up and readjust the other values in the column accordingly, (you want to tune for more power)

just allow for the ecu to make that correction in that case (a positive value less then 2 in this case is probably just from the car not completely cooling down between runs and heat effecting power output)

Limit the max VE to avoid hitting that load level again ( you want to limit power produce or boost for reliability reasons etc.

damn that's longer then I expected, I'll check it over for spelling and clarity after I get back from class, post any areas of concern or questions I can help with and I will try and add the info in
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« Reply #23 on: August 25, 2012, 09:10:04 AM »

Interesting. I didn't think ME7 made fueling decisions based on target torque.
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« Reply #24 on: August 25, 2012, 10:06:29 AM »

Interesting. I didn't think ME7 made fueling decisions based on target torque.

I'm pretty sure it doesn't.

If any details were included it would be much easier to try to figure what the author is talking about.
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phila_dot
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« Reply #25 on: August 25, 2012, 01:28:15 PM »

Does anyone have anything factual to add here?

I have done hours of variable tracking and see nothing to substantiate the claims above.

- IRL/IOP relationship : milsol_w only

- IRL torque intervention : rlsol_w = rlmin_w only

- gains from IOP : milsol_w only

- IOP influence on fuel trims : none

No ME7 mysticism, detailed facts only.

-
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Gonzo
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« Reply #26 on: August 25, 2012, 02:15:29 PM »

I've never seen any changes on fueling based on torque request/monitoring on ME7.5...
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nyet
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« Reply #27 on: August 25, 2012, 05:53:35 PM »

- IRL/IOP relationship : milsol_w only

- IRL torque intervention : rlsol_w = rlmin_w only

Given the IOP/IRL torque intervention thread, what causes torque intervention (other than ARMD)?
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« Reply #28 on: August 25, 2012, 06:50:38 PM »

Given the IOP/IRL torque intervention thread, what causes torque intervention (other than ARMD)?

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nyet
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« Reply #29 on: August 26, 2012, 11:16:29 AM »

Yes, understood, but under what conditions, specifically. Are you saying the information in the IOP thread is wrong? And the logs are wrong?

Do you have any logs showing torque intervention and a clear explanation about what conditions lead to it?
« Last Edit: August 26, 2012, 11:20:23 AM by nyet » Logged

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Do not PM me technical questions! Please, ask all questions on the forums! Doing so will ensure the next person with the same issue gets the opportunity to learn from your ex
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