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Author Topic: Part throttle jerking  (Read 54594 times)
em.Euro.R18
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« Reply #45 on: September 05, 2012, 09:55:00 AM »

KFMIRL - target filling map which is the driver requested torque based off of throttle input and requested kpa map value.
and  KFMIOP - Titled in maestro editor as the optimal engine torque map. Which is the main Volumetric Efficiency map. RPM vrs. cylinder filling that is a function of engine load. For those that don't know VE is an indicator of how much pumping is being done by the engine at any point since the engine cannot always fill cylinders completely. Any modification to the intake design, intake/exhaust temps, exhaust, charge piping, or cams that would change air density, velosity or flow this map will be out of calibration(how much will depend on application). Which is all common knowledge in EFI tuning. Airmass is a function of engine volume, number of cylinders, map value in KPA, and intake air temp. Total airmass and required fuel should be derived from that calculation.
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nyet
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« Reply #46 on: September 05, 2012, 10:05:24 AM »

Total airmass ingested is *completely* described by MAF readings.

VE for fueling is only relevant when using speed density.
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matchew
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« Reply #47 on: September 05, 2012, 10:14:16 AM »

KFMIOP - Titled in maestro editor as the optimal engine torque map. Which is the main Volumetric Efficiency map.

Dogsh1t. So take typical a TFSI KFMIOP. 100% filling at 5000rpm = 65% VE? LOL

You are confused, and the bullshit editor you use has only multiplied your confusion.
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phila_dot
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« Reply #48 on: September 05, 2012, 10:23:53 AM »

KFMIRL - target filling map which is the driver requested torque based off of throttle input and requested kpa map value.
and  KFMIOP - Titled in maestro editor as the optimal engine torque map. Which is the main Volumetric Efficiency map. RPM vrs. cylinder filling that is a function of engine load. For those that don't know VE is an indicator of how much pumping is being done by the engine at any point since the engine cannot always fill cylinders completely. Any modification to the intake design, intake/exhaust temps, exhaust, charge piping, or cams that would change air density, velosity or flow this map will be out of calibration(how much will depend on application). Which is all common knowledge in EFI tuning. Airmass is a function of engine volume, number of cylinders, map value in KPA, and intake air temp. Total airmass and required fuel should be derived from that calculation.

KFMIRL - target load from torque/rpm. The torque input is far from driver's request.

KFMIOP - optimal torque from load/rpm. Not sure who made up the whole VE angle of this map, but Tapp didn't make up the title, Bosch did. The output is torque and just like optimal ignition angle it is almost exclusively used in intervention.

I do like your positive attitude, but you keep writing the same story without relating anything specific to this map.
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nyet
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« Reply #49 on: September 05, 2012, 10:34:33 AM »

http://www.catb.org/esr/writings/homesteading/cathedral-bazaar/

"pro" tuner secret society mumbojumbo vs many-eyes approach
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em.Euro.R18
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« Reply #50 on: September 05, 2012, 12:58:11 PM »

I appreciate you guys for being open minded and not turning this into a pissing match. Here is the general idea. I don't believe that MAF reading is the only Airmass input until the MAF is unplugged. I believe the optimal torque map is put in place to check MAF readings and compare them. Based on fuel trims derived from 02 correction, timing, and boost to effect the Actual torque produced by the car without the driver feeling the ill effects of air density, driving load and intake temps on power output.



You, the driver, press the accelerator pedal in accordance to your wish.

This variable will be known as Pedal % and it is the X axis of the Accelerator pedal map.

Pedal % is then matched up with RPM on the Accelerator pedal map

the value in this cell becomes the variable Driver's wish

Driver's wish is then exported to the Y axis of the Target filling map

Driver's wish is then matched up again with RPM on the Target filling map

the value in this cell is the "raw target load" (which I think is in relation to the kpa translation from MAP voltage) we will call it Raw load

*Raw load is a value we do NOT see, it is NOT engine spec load (that is merely the value you can set for the max VE on the boost tables and is there to limit overboost situations) *

Actual Load is measured by the MAF, or calculated by ecu in the case of MAFless or malfunctioning MAF and exported to the Y axis of Optimal torque map

Actual Load is then matched up with RPM on the Optimal torque map

This variable is Optimal torque

Optimal torque should, if the mixture is at 14.7 or 1 lambda, match up correctly with the percentage of torque that is required to keep the car moving in accordance with the target filling map. Once we can see the actual torque put out by the engine in the data this will be easier to see. if it doesn't the car will begin to make fuel and timing changes to try and get that in line.


so as you can see if you change the target filling maps you can get the new optimal torque values by doing some math on the values of the target filling table.

After going through all this I am really beginning to see how tuning a MAFless car would be MUCH easier following Maestro 7 style of tuning with the full load lambda map etc, as oppose to my file using solely the power enrichment.

This theory also explains why when people unplug a bad MAF the car runs a lot better when the car is on a stock tune. Unplugging the MAF triggers the alpha-N tables and airflow over tb, etc etc.

Since these tables are pretty well dialed in from the factory for the factory tune they are much better values to use then a low reading MAF, so the car runs better because torque control isn't limiting power because it's seeing low MAF readings meaning Driver's wish and Optimal Torque aren't matching up

In order for the ECU to know whether or not the it needs to make the engine produce more or less torque in order to comply with drivers demand of current Load(value measured by MAF or calculated if running mafless), it needs a value to check against. This is the value you are adjusting on the optimal torque map.

Now since the optimal torque map effects many variables off a single value, it is safe to assume that you can adjust for 02 correction and know that the effect of requested boost and timing from the optimal torque map will also be in line and if you have problems in these areas after getting fueling set you need to begin to adjust other maps to affect those values.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2012, 01:18:39 PM by em.Euro.R18 » Logged
em.Euro.R18
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« Reply #51 on: September 05, 2012, 01:21:27 PM »

KFMIRL - target load from torque/rpm. The torque input is far from driver's request.

KFMIOP - The output is torque and just like optimal ignition angle it is almost exclusively used in intervention.

Agreed
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nyet
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« Reply #52 on: September 05, 2012, 01:37:45 PM »

Once we can see the actual torque put out by the engine in the data this will be easier to see. if it doesn't the car will begin to make fuel and timing changes to try and get that in line

I don't think the ECU makes fueling changes to bring output torque in line. Why should it, when it can use throttle plate, requested boost, or timing, to do that?

Again, are you saying IOP

1) alters requested AFR
2) can help bring actual closer in line with requested during open loop
3) is used as a feed-forward component in closed loop
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ME7.1 tuning guide (READ FIRST)
ECUx Plot
ME7Sum checksum checker/corrrector for ME7.x

Please do not ask me for tunes. I'm here to help people make their own.

Do not PM me technical questions! Please, ask all questions on the forums! Doing so will ensure the next person with the same issue gets the opportunity to learn from your experience.
em.Euro.R18
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« Reply #53 on: September 11, 2012, 11:03:20 AM »

Its been a year since I've gone through this site and I'm overwhelmed with the contributions many have made to this forum. Notorious VR, nyet, tony(of course), phila_dot I've been following your posts in the last couple days trying to grasp a better understanding of how you interpret those maps. I'm starting to agree with your ideas behind torque monitoring it has a direct effect on fueling, timing and boost under certain conditions such as when actual exceeds spec load. So I could be wrong on the optimal torque map being a VE table, but I'm not 100% convinced yet.

Although I'm not sure I agree with the maf being the only input into airmass calculation(all the time). My theory: Bosch uses both speed-density and MAF readings to achive requested AFR's dependant on the situation where they are most useful (cruise,WOT and part throttle). I'm still looking into this, but it is not uncommon in todays production GM software. I know most tuners dealing with a insufficient maf are using speed density to compensate under situations where maf readings are exceeded or maxed out(of course this isn't the most optimal way dependant on weather/elevation changes the driver deals with).
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matchew
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« Reply #54 on: September 11, 2012, 11:42:42 AM »

I'm not sure I agree with the maf being the only input into airmass calculation(all the time). My theory: Bosch uses both speed-density and MAF readings to achive requested AFR's dependant on the situation where they are most useful (cruise,WOT and part throttle).

Your wrong. The MAF reading is used all the time (that it is plugged in and passes diagnosis). When the MAF fails diagnosis or is unplugged then load is calculated from TPS. the ECU NEVER switch's  between the two when the MAF is plausible.
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phila_dot
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« Reply #55 on: September 11, 2012, 09:33:01 PM »

I'm starting to agree with your ideas behind torque monitoring it has a direct effect on fueling, timing and boost under certain conditions such as when actual exceeds spec load.

I hate the terminology here sometimes. Specified load is ...what?? My usage...

Specified load :         rlmx_w
Specified Corrected : rlmax_w
Desired                  : rlsol_w

Specified load, rlmx_w, get used soled in the calculation of specified corrected load, rlmax_w. Never referenced against actual load rl_w or any derivative.

I'll cover desired load, rlsol_w next.

In MDKOG rlsol_w = rlmin_w triggers B_zwnget. This should not be an issue.

In FUEREG, drlfue = rlsol_w  - rlmin_w for FUEDK.

mlsol_w for purge control and msdnkoos_w for throttle angle are calculated in FUEDK from drlfue_w.

rlsol_w is used to calculate rlshk for NWS in FE and can also be used in NWS depending on codeword settings.

In LDRPID, the percentage of rlsol_w to rlmax_w is calculated and if greater than 97.65, B_ldvl (full load) is set and can trigger an additive to ldimx.

Finally, in LDTVMA, rlsol_w - rl_w can be used in the calculation of ldtvm as a backup to normal boost control.

Now for rlmax_w.

rlmax_w is only used to limit rlsol_w and to calculate mimax_w from KFMIOP in MDMAX. mimax_w is a huge part of the torque model, mainly in MDFAW.

As you can see, there is no mystery intervention caused by actual load exceeding specified. The only time any calculated load is even compared to actual load is for calculating WGDC under certain error conditions.

I have analyzed and logged most of the torque model and it seems most interventions come from the CAN variables being less than mifa_w. Basically, the goal in MDKOG is to get mifa_w to the end. I'm going to shift my focus to MDFAW.
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nyet
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« Reply #56 on: September 12, 2012, 09:01:02 AM »

I have analyzed and logged most of the torque model and it seems most interventions come from the CAN variables being less than mifa_w. Basically, the goal in MDKOG is to get mifa_w to the end. I'm going to shift my focus to MDFAW.

Thank you for the time and effort spent in this.

In reviewing my logs, the torque intervention events (that aren't ARM) seem to co-incide with mifi or mimax being too high in MDKOG, which, as you said, are unrelated to load being too high.

When load (or MAF) is too high, I get fueling problems, not timing intervention.
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ME7.1 tuning guide (READ FIRST)
ECUx Plot
ME7Sum checksum checker/corrrector for ME7.x

Please do not ask me for tunes. I'm here to help people make their own.

Do not PM me technical questions! Please, ask all questions on the forums! Doing so will ensure the next person with the same issue gets the opportunity to learn from your experience.
em.Euro.R18
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« Reply #57 on: September 12, 2012, 10:32:53 AM »

Interesting... Yes I'm sorry I should start adopting the correct abbreviations into my responses to steer away from confusion. I'll work on that, considering that I've only used maestro working with me7. So let me ask you this... What are you looking to accomplish? Are you simply looking for the source of torque intervention? From my understanding as long as your KFMIOP is properly calibrated as well as the inverse KFMIRL you shouldn't see any torque intervention via fuel, timing or throttle.

Chris Tapps definition-
Optimum engine torque lookup table. Table values are theoreticaly ideal engine torque with optimum spark and Lambda = 1. Axis are cylinder filling in % and RPM
The ecu is constantly calculating an internal torque value, on a scale of  0 to 100%
This torque value is then corrected for actual lambda (vs. 14.7:1), actual timing (vs. Optimal timing, and this is often a theoretical value that cannot be achieved due to the knock limit)
This internally calculated torque value is then compared to the value from the optimum torque table, and the ecu may then take steps to alter engine torque if the values do not match.
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nyet
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« Reply #58 on: September 12, 2012, 11:18:21 AM »

The ecu is constantly calculating an internal torque value, on a scale of  0 to 100%
This torque value is then corrected for actual lambda (vs. 14.7:1), actual timing (vs. Optimal timing, and this is often a theoretical value that cannot be achieved due to the knock limit)

This calculation uses the *optimum torque* table as a starting point.

Quote
This internally calculated torque value is then compared to the value from the optimum torque table, and the ecu may then take steps to alter engine torque if the values do not match.

IMO it is compared to misol, which *isn't* from the optimum torque table. Again, i think the "actual" torque is calculated using the IOP as a starting point.

I could be wrong on this, it is from memory and I dont have the FR handy to check.
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ME7.1 tuning guide (READ FIRST)
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Please do not ask me for tunes. I'm here to help people make their own.

Do not PM me technical questions! Please, ask all questions on the forums! Doing so will ensure the next person with the same issue gets the opportunity to learn from your experience.
phila_dot
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« Reply #59 on: September 12, 2012, 11:20:28 AM »

Interesting... Yes I'm sorry I should start adopting the correct abbreviations into my responses to steer away from confusion. I'll work on that, considering that I've only used maestro working with me7. So let me ask you this... What are you looking to accomplish? Are you simply looking for the source of torque intervention? From my understanding as long as your KFMIOP is properly calibrated as well as the inverse KFMIRL you shouldn't see any torque intervention via fuel, timing or throttle.

A complete understanding of the torque model. No more "it is my understanding" statements, witchcraft theories, assumptions, or being stuck on one line of text in the FR. I want factual, substantiated information.

You say properly calibrated KFMIOP, how does one properly calibrate this map (kinda rhetorical, we already heard that fairy tale)? Why is that the proper method?

Does any part of the torque model need to be calibrated? Why? What is gained from adjusting KFMIOP? Higher torque input to KFMIRL? Why not just make up for it in KFMIRL?

Why does KFMIRL have to be the inverse? It doesn't it is just logical. KFMIOP is load to torque and KFMIRL is torque to load.  mimax from KFMIOP can basically be the input to KFMIRL (mimax --> mivbeb --> mifa --> mifafu --> milsolv --> milsol).

No more myths. Just facts.
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