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nyet
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« Reply #60 on: September 12, 2012, 11:25:03 AM »
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Why does KFMIRL have to be the inverse? It doesn't it is just logical. KFMIOP is load to torque and KFMIRL is torque to load.
If KFMIOP is NOT adjusted to be the proper inverse of KFMIRL (btw stock isn't entirely the perfect inverse), is undesired/unexpected torque intervention the result? |
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ME7.1 tuning guideECUx PlotME7Sum checksumTrim heatmap toolPlease do not ask me for tunes. I'm here to help people make their own. Do not PM me technical questions! Please, ask all questions on the forums! Doing so will ensure the next person with the same issue gets the opportunity to learn from your ex
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phila_dot
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« Reply #61 on: September 12, 2012, 11:41:06 AM »
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If KFMIOP is NOT adjusted to be the proper inverse of KFMIRL (btw stock isn't entirely the perfect inverse), is undesired/unexpected torque intervention the result?
I can't find anywhere that this occurs. KFMIOP is part of the input to KFMIRL and that is it. |
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« Last Edit: September 12, 2012, 11:42:54 AM by phila_dot »
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phila_dot
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« Reply #62 on: September 12, 2012, 12:05:51 PM »
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This calculation uses the *optimum torque* table as a starting point.
IMO it is compared to misol, which *isn't* from the optimum torque table. Again, i think the "actual" torque is calculated using the IOP as a starting point.
I could be wrong on this, it is from memory and I dont have the FR handy to check.
Sounds like he's talking about mibas. What is actual torque? Everything is calculated. misol != mifa means that mifa got adjusted on it's path through MDKOG or mifa > miszul (max permissable torque from MDZUL). This can trigger ignition angle intervention. |
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nyet
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« Reply #63 on: September 12, 2012, 12:17:44 PM »
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From memory, by "actual" i mean "mifa/miist"
I thought mimax and mifa/miist are used in places other than IRL.
What is the point to converting "actual" (mifa/miist) load to torque (through IOP) then back to "req" load (misol) again (through IRL)?
What side effects occur if IOP is not the inverse to IRL?
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ME7.1 tuning guideECUx PlotME7Sum checksumTrim heatmap toolPlease do not ask me for tunes. I'm here to help people make their own. Do not PM me technical questions! Please, ask all questions on the forums! Doing so will ensure the next person with the same issue gets the opportunity to learn from your ex
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nyet
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« Reply #64 on: September 12, 2012, 12:19:06 PM »
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misol != mifa means that mifa got adjusted on it's path through MDKOG or mifa > miszul (max permissable torque from MDZUL). This can trigger ignition angle intervention.
I though that if IOP isn't calibrated right, misol < mifa, which leads to torque intervention. |
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ME7.1 tuning guideECUx PlotME7Sum checksumTrim heatmap toolPlease do not ask me for tunes. I'm here to help people make their own. Do not PM me technical questions! Please, ask all questions on the forums! Doing so will ensure the next person with the same issue gets the opportunity to learn from your ex
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em.Euro.R18
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« Reply #65 on: September 12, 2012, 12:35:25 PM »
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A complete understanding of the torque model. No more "it is my understanding" statements, witchcraft theories, assumptions, or being stuck on one line of text in the FR. I want factual, substantiated information.
You say properly calibrated KFMIOP, how does one properly calibrate this map (kinda rhetorical, we already heard that fairy tale)? Why is that the proper method?
Does any part of the torque model need to be calibrated? Why? What is gained from adjusting KFMIOP? Higher torque input to KFMIRL? Why not just make up for it in KFMIRL?
Why does KFMIRL have to be the inverse? It doesn't it is just logical. KFMIOP is load to torque and KFMIRL is torque to load. mimax from KFMIOP can basically be the input to KFMIRL (mimax --> mivbeb --> mifa --> mifafu --> milsolv --> milsol).
No more myths. Just facts.
I wasn't attacking or attempting to insult you... I was asking you if adjusting KFMIOP can solve the issue with torque intervention why go any further? What is gained from KFMIOP is smooth/refined power delivery. Higher input to KFMIRL will result in more requested torque rlsol_w. You can change KFMIRL independantly from KFMIOP (I have done it with ill effects, havn't changed the axis though) but they do appear to be setup inverse to one another. I wasn't saying they MUST be inverse. Now you ask me how to calibrate KFMIOP the proper way... I have no idea what would be considered the proper way to bosch's standards but I'm on my way to finding out what works. The author of the quoted method of tuning this map which was posted decided to use o2correction as a guide for the calibration. As you trace through the map you make small adjustments + or - 1%. This user was able to take o2 correction values to +/- 1-2% MAF included. I have used it before on a stock turbo mk4 with promising results. As I learn more I am not sure about going off of o2 correction but more off of actual calculated torque. I am still not attempting to insult just here to learn and possibly contribute. I'm working on getting my motor together to do further testing so that I can provide the data to back myself up. |
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« Last Edit: September 12, 2012, 12:39:07 PM by em.Euro.R18 »
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phila_dot
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« Reply #66 on: September 12, 2012, 12:45:06 PM »
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From memory, by "actual" i mean "mifa/miist"
I consider mifa to be desired, from driver's wish in MDFAW. miist is labeled actual but calculated from miopt in MDIST and output directly to CAN. I thought mimax and mifa/miist are used in places other than IRL.
mimax and mifa are almost solely used in MDFAW, MDKOG, and MDKOL for milsol (IRL) and ignition angle intervention. What is the point to converting "actual" (mifa/miist) load to torque (through IOP) then back to "req" load (misol) again (through IRL)?
mimax from IOP is max torque requested and is calculated using rlmax_w (max load --> max torque). This caps driver's wish mrfa_w in MDFAW. What side effects occur if IOP is not the inverse to IRL?
None |
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phila_dot
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« Reply #67 on: September 12, 2012, 12:55:35 PM »
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I wasn't attacking or attempting to insult you... I was asking you if adjusting KFMIOP can solve the issue with torque intervention why go any further? What is gained from KFMIOP is smooth/refined power delivery. Higher input to KFMIRL will result in more requested torque rlsol_w. You can change KFMIRL independantly from KFMIOP (I have done it with ill effects, havn't changed the axis though) but they do appear to be setup inverse to one another. I wasn't saying they MUST be inverse.
No offense taken, and none intended. Torque intervention is solved with IOP? How? Why? Smooth refined power delivery comes from adjusting IOP? How? Why? Ill effects from adjusting IRL independently from IOP? How? Why? Everything I have seen from logging and variable tracking contradicts almost everything you wrote. From what I've seen you are more likely to cause torque intervention by tampering with IOP. Are you using ME7L yet? I posted a definition file containing ARMD, MDKOG, and MDZW. I plan to have the entire torque model eventually, but it is very time consuming. The best way to get answers to all these questions is by logging. |
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em.Euro.R18
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« Reply #68 on: September 12, 2012, 07:08:58 PM »
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Are you using ME7L yet?
Not just yet but I am currently in the process although everyone in gods creation around western NY is APR tuned which makes reading the ECU file a problem. Have any pointers to get around this? I know I have to have a backup file incase the "progamming not finished" error pops up(does this only happen when trying to flash or reading as well?) or shall I just take the chance at reading the ECU and if the problem occurs go from there. I now understand the questions that you are asking and I'll have to take some more time to read through the bosch document so that we can start speaking the same language here. Also get my car back on the road or grab a friends so I can start digging a little deeper and back my claims up with logged info. I appreciate you guys being patient with me. |
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phila_dot
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« Reply #69 on: September 12, 2012, 08:42:22 PM »
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I though that if IOP isn't calibrated right, misol < mifa, which leads to torque intervention.
Didn't see this one earlier... misol < mifa is a sign that torque intervention has occured. mifa is desired torque at the beginning of MDKOG and misol is the result at the end after all the other torque requests have had the chance to adjust desired torque. If the end result is less than the original request then torque intervention is present and ignition angle intervention will be triggered. All the other torque requests will be 99.99 unless they are requesting intervention, so mifa will make it to the end and if mifa < miszul then misol = mifa and there will be no intervention. Obviously I'm summarizing and generalizing, but that is a good overview of what I've seen. |
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phila_dot
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« Reply #70 on: September 12, 2012, 08:44:55 PM »
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Not just yet but I am currently in the process although everyone in gods creation around western NY is APR tuned which makes reading the ECU file a problem. Have any pointers to get around this? I know I have to have a backup file incase the "progamming not finished" error pops up(does this only happen when trying to flash or reading as well?) or shall I just take the chance at reading the ECU and if the problem occurs go from there.
I now understand the questions that you are asking and I'll have to take some more time to read through the bosch document so that we can start speaking the same language here. Also get my car back on the road or grab a friends so I can start digging a little deeper and back my claims up with logged info. I appreciate you guys being patient with me.
What ECU? If your original file is not already available on this site, there is a section for requests that does get good results. |
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em.Euro.R18
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« Reply #71 on: September 12, 2012, 08:52:02 PM »
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What ECU?
If your original file is not already available on this site, there is a section for requests that does get good results.
its a 06A906032NK 1.8t R4/5vt I'll post in that section. |
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Bische
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« Reply #72 on: September 13, 2012, 11:00:10 AM »
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Didn't see this one earlier...
misol < mifa is a sign that torque intervention has occured. mifa is desired torque at the beginning of MDKOG and misol is the result at the end after all the other torque requests have had the chance to adjust desired torque. If the end result is less than the original request then torque intervention is present and ignition angle intervention will be triggered.
All the other torque requests will be 99.99 unless they are requesting intervention, so mifa will make it to the end and if mifa < miszul then misol = mifa and there will be no intervention.
Obviously I'm summarizing and generalizing, but that is a good overview of what I've seen.
Thanks for the summary, the torque model is pretty intensive to go through. I have done a few fast skims through a couple of sections and was until now plotting mifa_w and mifab_w(didnt have mimax_w in my logger definition), and was aiming for mifab_w = mifa_w. EDIT: I have made 2 files now with changes to KFMIOP to see how/if it affects my mixture control. |
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« Last Edit: September 13, 2012, 11:02:50 AM by Bische »
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phila_dot
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« Reply #73 on: September 13, 2012, 12:27:05 PM »
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Thanks for the summary, the torque model is pretty intensive to go through. I have done a few fast skims through a couple of sections and was until now plotting mifa_w and mifab_w(didnt have mimax_w in my logger definition), and was aiming for mifab_w = mifa_w.
EDIT: I have made 2 files now with changes to KFMIOP to see how/if it affects my mixture control.
midab_w == mifa_w only shows that mifa_w <= mimax_w. Which should typically be the case. Unless maybe one of the sub-fuctions in MDFAW is actually raising desired torque after the min(mivbeg_w, mimax_w). However, mifab_w > misolv_w is also compared and enables some intervention conditions that I can't remember off the top of my head. |
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Bische
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« Reply #74 on: September 13, 2012, 07:19:19 PM »
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midab_w == mifa_w only shows that mifa_w <= mimax_w. Which should typically be the case. Unless maybe one of the sub-fuctions in MDFAW is actually raising desired torque after the min(mivbeg_w, mimax_w).
However, mifab_w > misolv_w is also compared and enables some intervention conditions that I can't remember off the top of my head.
Yes, thats how I figured also. Here is a plot with mifa_w, mifab_w and misol_w:  misol_w = mifa_w even though mifa_w is ~1.5% over mimax_w, I have to go over the functions more but this leaves me to believe there is some tolerance before intervention is induced. |
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