Pages: 1 2 [3]
Author Topic: Why is my act load > reg after 5000rpm?  (Read 29628 times)
nyet
Administrator
Hero Member
*****

Karma: +608/-168
Offline Offline

Posts: 12270


WWW
« Reply #30 on: August 28, 2012, 09:08:15 AM »

What made it go up was probably KFLDHBN.

This.
Logged

ME7.1 tuning guide
ECUx Plot
ME7Sum checksum
Trim heatmap tool

Please do not ask me for tunes. I'm here to help people make their own.

Do not PM me technical questions! Please, ask all questions on the forums! Doing so will ensure the next person with the same issue gets the opportunity to learn from your ex
smurfbus
Jr. Member
**

Karma: +0/-1
Offline Offline

Posts: 38


« Reply #31 on: August 29, 2012, 11:26:41 PM »

After about 10 versions trying to smooth the PID and deviations I finally tried the RS4 maps nehalem kindly provided for all of us.

It did not solve the deviation problem when spool overshoots and req is lagging but no more dip after the spike. It also gave too much boost as I  still had 248 ldrnx. 1.93bar to 1.5bar was not a lot faster than 1.65 to 1.45 so I will aim for the lower boost and fine tune AFR and timing which pegs the following questions:

1. Should I try to match my WB AFR to requested AFR with FKKVS or KFKHFM or does it really matter? I don't have rpm at the moment on my LM-2 but I will install it next weekend. It's hard to figure AFR from logs with no rpm and I do see some lean spikes that I need to take care of.

2. I'm asking LDRXN 230 at spool but req boost keeps lagging up until 5250rpms and KFLDHBN is not limiting the boost so I get deviation TC. Are  there any maps that I could massage to get req boost up on spool or is it the RS4 PID thats keeping it lower and about linear? For the mean time I widened the deviation delta.
Logged
nyet
Administrator
Hero Member
*****

Karma: +608/-168
Offline Offline

Posts: 12270


WWW
« Reply #32 on: August 30, 2012, 09:17:38 AM »

After about 10 versions trying to smooth the PID and deviations I finally tried the RS4 maps nehalem kindly provided for all of us.

It did not solve the deviation problem when spool overshoots and req is lagging but no more dip after the spike. It also gave too much boost as I  still had 248 ldrnx. 1.93bar to 1.5bar was not a lot faster than 1.65 to 1.45 so I will aim for the lower boost

Set the req boost where you want it, then tune the PID.

Quote
1. Should I try to match my WB AFR to requested AFR with FKKVS or KFKHFM or does it really matter? I don't have rpm at the moment on my LM-2 but I will install it next weekend. It's hard to figure AFR from logs with no rpm and I do see some lean spikes that I need to take care of.

You should be able to do it all with KFKHFM and KRKTE.

You can't really fix "spikes" per se, only basic trends. If you are seeing spikes, there are likely other issues.

Quote
2. I'm asking LDRXN 230 at spool but req boost keeps lagging up until 5250rpms and KFLDHBN is not limiting the boost so I get deviation TC. Are  there any maps that I could massage to get req boost up on spool

I think you are confusing req and actual. KFLDHBN limits req boost. Devation is the difference between req and actual. KFLDHBN cannot limit actual, only request.

Quote
or is it the RS4 PID thats keeping it lower and about linear?

The PID has no effect on request. The PID is there to make actual match request. You need to research PIDs and control systems. Request is the set point, actual is the measurement.

Quote
For the mean time I widened the deviation delta.

Never do a "mean time" fix. Fix the underlying problem.
Logged

ME7.1 tuning guide
ECUx Plot
ME7Sum checksum
Trim heatmap tool

Please do not ask me for tunes. I'm here to help people make their own.

Do not PM me technical questions! Please, ask all questions on the forums! Doing so will ensure the next person with the same issue gets the opportunity to learn from your ex
Bische
Sr. Member
****

Karma: +25/-4
Offline Offline

Posts: 397



WWW
« Reply #33 on: August 30, 2012, 10:42:14 PM »

I think you are confusing req and actual. KFLDHBN limits req boost. Devation is the difference between req and actual. KFLDHBN cannot limit actual, only request.

KFLDHBN limits via throttle cut if actual stays over the PR setpoint for a specified time. I have mine set to just under the MAP limit and if I spike and hold ~1.5bar for like 1sec I get throttle cut via KFLDHBN.
Logged
prj
Hero Member
*****

Karma: +1072/-481
Offline Offline

Posts: 6037


« Reply #34 on: August 31, 2012, 03:25:23 AM »

KFLDHBN does not throttle cut anything. It affects specified and thus requested load.

The throttle cut is due to actual staying over requested for an extended period of time.
Logged

PM's will not be answered, so don't even try.
Log your car properly - WinOLS database - Tools/patches
Bische
Sr. Member
****

Karma: +25/-4
Offline Offline

Posts: 397



WWW
« Reply #35 on: August 31, 2012, 06:27:23 AM »

KFLDHBN does not throttle cut anything. It affects specified and thus requested load.

The throttle cut is due to actual staying over requested for an extended period of time.


Ok, it must have been a coincidense it happened for me after setting KFLDHBN.

Thanks for clarifying Smiley
Logged
prj
Hero Member
*****

Karma: +1072/-481
Offline Offline

Posts: 6037


« Reply #36 on: August 31, 2012, 07:50:17 AM »



Ok, it must have been a coincidense it happened for me after setting KFLDHBN.

Thanks for clarifying Smiley

No, it may not have been a coincidence, you probably just exceeded requested load.
Please, when you tune understand why you do things and how they are done. Don't just try changing maps for kicks and seeing what happens.
This is best way of wasting lots of time and getting nowhere... especially if the documentation for the ECU is readily available.
Logged

PM's will not be answered, so don't even try.
Log your car properly - WinOLS database - Tools/patches
Bische
Sr. Member
****

Karma: +25/-4
Offline Offline

Posts: 397



WWW
« Reply #37 on: August 31, 2012, 11:23:07 AM »

Now you lost me.

First you agree with me saying KFLDHBN will end up with throttle cut here:

KFLDHBN does not throttle cut anything. It affects specified and thus requested load.

The throttle cut is due to actual staying over requested for an extended period of time.

Then you tell me I dont know how this map is used?

No, it may not have been a coincidence, you probably just exceeded requested load.
Please, when you tune understand why you do things and how they are done. Don't just try changing maps for kicks and seeing what happens.
This is best way of wasting lots of time and getting nowhere... especially if the documentation for the ECU is readily available.

My understanding is that this map will limit the system to run over a specified PR, simple as that. Since this whole ECU is built to output a specific torque in an closed loop, regardless of ambient conditions.

And since boost is controlled in this manner, you could possibly place your car on a dyno ontop of mount everest an try to achieve this requested torque and boost your k03 into pieces, IF it wasnt for this map.

The reason I tuned this map was to hard limit my boost to ~1.45bar while dialing my boost PID on the street, since my block is stock and cant handle any kind of boost spikes. This appeared to me as a very good reason to use this map, but if you have a better way of doing this, please give me some tips.

Bische
Logged
matchew
Hero Member
*****

Karma: +47/-22
Offline Offline

Posts: 503


« Reply #38 on: August 31, 2012, 11:39:56 AM »

KFLDHBN  makes up part of the requested load calculation.

When actual load goes over requested then the ECU can go as far to cut the throttle to bring actual load back in line with requested.

So....

If your actual boost goes over KFLDHBN then you ~can get a throttle cut, but this doesnt mean to say that KFLDHBN controls if you get a throttle cut or not.
Logged
nyet
Administrator
Hero Member
*****

Karma: +608/-168
Offline Offline

Posts: 12270


WWW
« Reply #39 on: August 31, 2012, 11:42:11 AM »

If your PID is tuned correctly, you shouldn't get throttle cut, regardless of requested boost. Period.
Logged

ME7.1 tuning guide
ECUx Plot
ME7Sum checksum
Trim heatmap tool

Please do not ask me for tunes. I'm here to help people make their own.

Do not PM me technical questions! Please, ask all questions on the forums! Doing so will ensure the next person with the same issue gets the opportunity to learn from your ex
prj
Hero Member
*****

Karma: +1072/-481
Offline Offline

Posts: 6037


« Reply #40 on: September 01, 2012, 02:46:20 AM »

Then you tell me I dont know how this map is used?
Based on your statements, I figured that this was the case, yes.
Quote
My understanding is that this map will limit the system to run over a specified PR, simple as that. Since this whole ECU is built to output a specific torque in an closed loop, regardless of ambient conditions.

And since boost is controlled in this manner, you could possibly place your car on a dyno ontop of mount everest an try to achieve this requested torque and boost your k03 into pieces, IF it wasnt for this map.

The reason I tuned this map was to hard limit my boost to ~1.45bar while dialing my boost PID on the street, since my block is stock and cant handle any kind of boost spikes. This appeared to me as a very good reason to use this map, but if you have a better way of doing this, please give me some tips.
This map only limits specified corrected via rlmax. Furthermore, this map is there to protect the turbos from overspinning. It is not there to protect your "block" as you put it.
It also has as little or as much to do with throttle cut as any other map that affects the requested load calculation.

The fact that you are using it as you are shows a lack of understanding for this map. If you want to limit maximum cylinder pressure for your block, you should use LDRXN together with KFTARX. Boost is not what puts pressure on your block, cylinder filling and combustion circumstances do.
KFLDHBN is for the turbos alone. This is because cylinder pressure will rise and 1.5 bar in -10C ambient and 30C ambient will put very different strain on the mechanical components in the engine, but it will not do all that much for the turbos. In case of the turbos - the main problem is altitude and overspinning them there.

So in closing - yes, I do not think you are using it correctly.
It's your car, your tune, and you can do what you want with it, but saying that KFLDHBN is some sort of hard boost limit that gives throttle cut is incorrect. In fact, KFLDHBN should never cause throttle cut, it will just make the ECU request less load in some circumstances. If it is causing a cut, then your PID is configured incorrectly or the linearization tables are off.

Look at the LDRLMX section in the FDEF and you will understand what I mean.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2012, 02:50:10 AM by prj » Logged

PM's will not be answered, so don't even try.
Log your car properly - WinOLS database - Tools/patches
Bische
Sr. Member
****

Karma: +25/-4
Offline Offline

Posts: 397



WWW
« Reply #41 on: September 01, 2012, 11:47:59 AM »

Ok, I have gone through these sections a couple times now and I was wrong, thanks for getting me on the right track.

I guess I just got wind up as you called me out for altering maps for kicks, as I always try to get the best understanding possible before altering maps new to me. I do understand how this maps affects the system physically, I mean the ultimate function it has and what value to put there and what not.

But I admit I did never lookup how it was done before I tuned it back under the MAP limit in an attempt to hard limit my boost pressure. I was aware I did not use the maps for what it was intended to do, but this is done in many more ways, like the whole fueling enrichment via BTS or KR is all a big hack -but it works for what we intend it to do!

I assumed it would be based on actual boost and possibly drop the WGDC or cut the throttle, and since after I tuned it back down I did get throttle cut when I over boosted, I never looked it up. A lesson learned (again).
« Last Edit: September 01, 2012, 11:52:43 AM by Bische » Logged
Pages: 1 2 [3]
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines Page created in 0.058 seconds with 18 queries. (Pretty URLs adds 0.001s, 0q)