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Author Topic: E85 fueling, in cold climate!  (Read 30239 times)
sn00k
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« Reply #30 on: December 06, 2012, 03:25:09 AM »

Is there any reason we can't get %STADAP to handle startup enrichment?

If you are maxing out the enrichment adaptation, then the limit can just be increased.

Only range zero would have to be tweaked I think, maybe adjust the temp ranges themselves slightly too.

hmm, care to elaborate on STADAP works?
i think it would be great if this can be used.. from what i can tell by a quick look in FR, the ecu will "learn" the best startup enrichment itself?
i wonder how that works for different temperatures, as the ethanol in this case is far from linear.. if it could handle this, then yeey!  Smiley

were talking pretty massive enrichments here for -5 degC and downwards..

im designing a fuel pre-heater to eliminate the need for that massive enrichment in this -25-30degC weather we have had the last couple of days.. as in -5> there is really not much enrichment needed.. should radically improve fuel economy and driveability.. as well as no unburnt E85 ending up in the oil-pan.
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phila_dot
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« Reply #31 on: December 06, 2012, 09:41:26 AM »

This function creates an adaptive factor, kstaa, for the injection factor at start fst_w.

Coolant temp at start, tmst, is evaluted into three temp ranges, zero, one, and two. Each temp range has it's own adapted value. There are also interpolating factors, WAD*T*, to allow a percentage of influence between ranges.

If the number of ignitions during start reaches a threshold, ZSYNAUSW, then the number of combustions is checked against ZBURNSOL and ZBURNDEC and the decision is made to increment kstaa for too lean or decrement kstaa for too rich. The amount to adjust kstaa is determined in DECKSTAI (amount to decrement) and INCKSTAI (amount to increment) based on temp range.

I think that the only a few small things might need to be adjusted. I'm not sure of the temperature ranges that cause problems and if it gets increasingly worse as temps drop. I was thinking have range 0 exclusively handle the problem range, but if there is a large difference within the problem range, then you could have range 0 for extreme cold and range 1 for slight problem temps. Range two would then be for normal operation during the warmer months. The interpolation factors may need a good amount of tweaking to balance everything.

KSTAI : to fudge the temp ranges slightly
KSTAMX0 : the max cap for range 0
WAD0T1 : to adjust range 0's influence on range 1
WAD0T2 : to adjust range 0's influence on range 2

The other interpolation factors may need some adjustment as well and I think that you would want very minimal if any influence between range 2 and the colder ranges 0 and 1.

IMO it will be much better to allow the ECU to adapt the amount of fuel required for startup and dynamically adjust rather than trying to fight for the optimal enrichment.
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Rick
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« Reply #32 on: December 06, 2012, 02:01:08 PM »

I've had a look at this function before but had no need to use it as it never gets cold enough here.

It is disabled out of the factory.  Max adaptation is set to 0, and temp ranges are 0C 1C 2C.  Time since start values are a little off too. 


Rick
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phila_dot
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« Reply #33 on: December 06, 2012, 02:50:14 PM »

I've had a look at this function before but had no need to use it as it never gets cold enough here.

It is disabled out of the factory.  Max adaptation is set to 0, and temp ranges are 0C 1C 2C.  Time since start values are a little off too. 


Rick

The values you see in KSTAI are not in *C. The axis is tmst (coolant temp at start) in *C and the map values define which range is active (0-2).
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Rick
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« Reply #34 on: December 06, 2012, 05:51:11 PM »

Yes I realise that.  But if you look, some values for active range are set at 255
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phila_dot
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« Reply #35 on: December 06, 2012, 06:14:11 PM »

Yes I realise that.  But if you look, some values for active range are set at 255

Yep...these are inactive temp regions. Anything other than 0, 1, or 2 will not be active.
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smurfbus
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« Reply #36 on: March 05, 2013, 09:24:43 AM »

What are these axes about in KFFFANZ? They should be nmot and tmot?

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smurfbus
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« Reply #37 on: March 05, 2013, 10:56:30 AM »

I figure this STADAP only affects non start issues and  has no affect on warm up adaptation. I have no problems on initial start but the engine stalls right after the start if I dont give it plenty of throttle and keeping it over 2000rpms. This is at colder than minus10C. My KFFWL tables are maxed already so now Im looking for msd, KFFWLW and Stadap.

I should add: ev14 96# @4bar and E85
« Last Edit: March 05, 2013, 12:35:02 PM by smurfbus » Logged
silentbob
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« Reply #38 on: March 05, 2013, 02:03:43 PM »

I figure this STADAP only affects non start issues and  has no affect on warm up adaptation. I have no problems on initial start but the engine stalls right after the start if I dont give it plenty of throttle and keeping it over 2000rpms. This is at colder than minus10C. My KFFWL tables are maxed already so now Im looking for msd, KFFWLW and Stadap.

I should add: ev14 96# @4bar and E85

The adaptation factor is also used in afterstart enrichment.

This function is not the right way to handle E85. Calibrate your start for the fuel you use. You need a different map for gasoline and high ethanol fuels anyway. Using all the adaptation stuff will not get optimal results. OEM calibrations have to use it because of the big fuel quality span you get in different regions of the world. If you know "your fuel" there is no need for that.
STADAP is typically used for fuels down to E25. Higher ethanol contends use other adaptation strategies because the difference in behaviour compared to regular gasoline fuels is just too big.

As I have mentioned before I don't think it's the best idea to use E85 on such cold ambient conditions because of the oil dillution problem. If you don't warm up your engine really good (oil warmer than 90°C for at least half an hour) you can literally see your oil level go up. You can change your oil after 2000km then.
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smurfbus
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« Reply #39 on: March 05, 2013, 10:17:19 PM »

The adaptation factor is also used in afterstart enrichment.

This function is not the right way to handle E85. Calibrate your start for the fuel you use. You need a different map for gasoline and high ethanol fuels anyway.

As I have mentioned before I don't think it's the best idea to use E85 on such cold ambient conditions because of the oil dillution problem. If you don't warm up your engine really good (oil warmer than 90°C for at least half an hour) you can literally see your oil level go up. You can change your oil after 2000km then.

Thanks
As I have already maxed my KFFWL_ tables next calibration is the weighting MAP KFFWLW. I added 20% over zero temps and now I need to wait for the next really cold morning.

I have eberspaecher engine/interior heater but I'd like to get this sorted when or if my heater decides not to function. This morning was only  minus 1C and no problems but I only have that 20% on KFFWLW and MSD active under 1400 rpms, but the KFFFANZ is a bit mystery. I have the 40 and 80 columns at 2 sofar.

E85 is the most economical blend over here so thats why I use it over winter too.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2013, 10:30:23 PM by smurfbus » Logged
smurfbus
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« Reply #40 on: March 09, 2013, 01:14:36 AM »

Started and run just fine at minuc 16 C,  which is good as the heater started to act up yesterday and only fired on 3rd try. It would be nice to know which change affected the most, msd or stadap.
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