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Author Topic: 2000 A6 APB 2.94L RS6-R Build/Tune  (Read 78925 times)
nyet
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« Reply #15 on: March 28, 2013, 10:29:17 AM »

Interesting injector choice. I didn't know about those!

Do you have latency specs for them?

are they the same as these?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/6-EV14-Bosch-650cc-Fuel-Injectors-Flow-Matched-SET-FITS-Hyundai-Tiburon-Genesis-/370595645972
« Last Edit: March 28, 2013, 10:32:15 AM by nyet » Logged

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ddillenger
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« Reply #16 on: March 28, 2013, 10:37:02 AM »

While we're on the subject of alternative injectors, what do we think about these?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/03-04-Mustang-Cobra-Ford-Racing-39-pound-Fuel-Injectors-/230870732554?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item35c0f7cf0a&vxp=mtr

They can be had used for around 100 bucks for 8, add flow testing and cleaning and you're still looking very good on the price. The datasheets are readily available as well.
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pablo53
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« Reply #17 on: March 28, 2013, 05:16:34 PM »

Bosch part number is 0 280 158 123 with ' xT' 24mm extension per the attached data sheet.  There is also a 997 part number on the injector body.  

Hard to know if they are the same with the exception of the extension without knowing the part number. There are so many out there with so many variations of spray patterns. The Bosch documentation is a good reference to show how many factors there are besides flow.

I'm sure there are plenty of affordable solutions out there, but you'd definitely need to get the part number to research the spray pattern.

4 bar latency values are listed in the M-box file attached on my previous post.  Note the voltage axis is modified from stock as well.
« Last Edit: March 28, 2013, 10:06:55 PM by pablo53 » Logged
jibberjive
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« Reply #18 on: April 04, 2013, 03:11:59 AM »

Awesome build!  Glad I stumbled onto this, well done.

Interesting injector choice. I didn't know about those!

Do you have latency specs for them?

are they the same as these?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/6-EV14-Bosch-650cc-Fuel-Injectors-Flow-Matched-SET-FITS-Hyundai-Tiburon-Genesis-/370595645972

Yup, the injectors are the same as those that Five0 sell, as well as USRT, myself and possibly a few others.  Great injectors for our 5 valve Audi's, and their dual cone pattern, cone angle, and offset angle better match the stock RS4 specs than any other EV14.  And like he mentioned, they have EV1 electrical connectors, so no need for adapters.  They are the best EV14 injectors that someone can buy for our cars IMO, for someone looking for an injector around that flow rate (if someone is looking for higher flow rate, there are better options around 1000cc.)
« Last Edit: April 04, 2013, 05:33:26 PM by jibberjive » Logged
pablo53
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« Reply #19 on: April 04, 2013, 09:05:36 PM »

I've been taking the car out for some initial break in runs each night over the last week.  My first impression of the stroked motor is ....WOW.

I just got home, so still a bit giddy.  

I'm finding it difficult to break in properly because the car has such improved low end torque; then gets into positive manifold pressure so fast.  It been nearly impossible to sustain a moderate load for more than a few seconds.  

I've been staying in 3rd and 4th and starting around 1500 rpm.   The motor does not bog down.  Obviously, it doesn't quite feel like an N/A V8, but it's pretty solid.   Boost hits around 2500 rpm, then shift.   This is all under 60% throttle.

I've also noticed that even with the stock flywheel, the motor revs out very quickly.  It takes forever to warm up to full operating temp as well.   I'm sure the stroke helps with the revving.  My question is how much would the rings, bearing coatings, and polished cams and crank journals have to do with it?    How much noticeable across the board power should this equate to?

Because I sure think I feel it.  (yeah, yeah... that's what SHE said)

Anyway... that's my report for now.  Over the next month, I'll get some logs, pics, and video with decent sound quality.   The exhaust note is remarkably tame.... at idle.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2013, 09:32:38 AM by pablo53 » Logged
pablo53
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« Reply #20 on: April 04, 2013, 10:32:59 PM »

In addition to discovering and correcting the reason my car had run like crap on an EPL Stage 3 tune (EGT Faults were coded out, but not EGT function), I deleted the ridiculous brake safety throttle cut.

Went out again this evening, and drove the A6 for about 45 minutes.   Run after run of left foot braking while keeping the engine under continuous load.  Then did about 15 minutes of 2nd, 3rd, and 4th gear pulls at 1 bar.  I think the rings should be seated by now.

This weekend, I've got to throw in the aluminum TBB, V-Band Bi-pipes, and the 95mm MAF tube.   Then the real tuning begins.

As a side project, I had to do some work on my front bumper and re-spray it (2 years of bumper hack job running the JHM FMIC.  Too many supports were cut out, so I had to stiffen it up a bit). 

Since a gallon of Charcoal Metallic was only a few bucks more than a quart of Tornado Red, I made a rash decision and went with the Charcoal.  So I guess I have a bit of another project.   Paint the rest of the car.  Fun, Fun.    If it saves me one speeding ticket, it was worth it.

Cheers.

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pablo53
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« Reply #21 on: April 09, 2013, 09:35:07 PM »

Actually, UPS decided for me.  Didn't get a few parts in time for the weekend swap-out.

It works though.  I decided to log a bunch more with the stock MAF to get some good baseline airflow readings at specific boost levels.   I added an MBC in parallel to simplify logging at x, y, and z boost levels.  Plus I was getting huge boost spikes, but surely didn't want to spend a lot of time dialing in boost PID at low boost break-in levels.   I'm sure I will leave it on the car, then just tune the wastegates to just control boost ramp enough to not have that ON / OFF harshness that you'd get with the MBC standalone.

Painted some trim and the mirrors this evening.  Then pushed the car a little bit more tonight, and this car just rips.  Just got home from about an hour of logging/driving spiritedly (under 5500rpm still), and I'll say it again.  The low end torque and throttle response as well as spool from this setup is amazing.  Absolutely amazing.

For one, I haven't built a motor since high school auto shop class, I'm still excited that it started and doesn't leak anything.
Two, this car was PJK04 Stage 3 EPL car prior to this incarnation.  and that stage 3 car was pretty sweet, but even at 15 psi, this car feels completely different.    

And of course, I can hear the PPPSHWWOOOOOOSSHHHHHHHH of the riduculous amount of airflow rushing through the bypass valves every time I let off the throttle.

So, if anyone is interested, I should have some FATS pulls Friday night to post up.  Car should be up to it by then.  Will still be around 15 psi, and stock MAF housing.  I might turn it up a little to see what pressure it will take to max out the stock maf which is around 337g/s?

Any Guesses at what boost level for a 3rd gear pull will do it?

Any guess what these are? Look hard.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2013, 01:05:08 PM by pablo53 » Logged
prj
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« Reply #22 on: April 11, 2013, 04:11:02 PM »

Thanks for sharing, I'm waiting for same injectors for my rs4 ASJ, also figured KRKTE around 0.05 +/- from other EV14's comparison, though calculated is smth like 0.045.

The problem with the ASJ/AZR is that all that stuff about nice spray pattern goes to waste, because you will be spraying that dual cone of yours exactly into the manifold/port wall.
For RS4 application it is much better to either just get the 980cc Bosch Motorsport with 30 degree cone... or there is actually ONE injector Bosch produces that matches the specs quite well and does not cost 2000 EUR a piece Wink
These with dual narrow cone will need lots of wall film adjustment to get good throttle response.

---

As to OP - your project is looking great.
Regarding MBC - you need to learn to use the LDRAPP and CWMDAPP constants. And you can make runs at fixed DC.
If you want your boost control to work decently you will have to anyway.
« Last Edit: April 11, 2013, 04:13:42 PM by prj » Logged

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jibberjive
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« Reply #23 on: April 11, 2013, 08:32:26 PM »

or there is actually ONE injector Bosch produces that matches the specs quite well and does not cost 2000 EUR a piece Wink

The one that I found that closely matched the RS4 injector specs was indeed crazy expensive.  I guess I'll go look for a different one that apparently is out there.
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peter
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« Reply #24 on: April 18, 2013, 02:46:48 AM »

More Info on this DREAM build Please !!! Prettiest Eye Candy I've ever seen. Would you have done anything differently ?? I will be Building my A6 soon !!! By the way the Bore, your Built heads and quick spooling Turbos are why this Engine Revs so quickly !!!
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pablo53
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« Reply #25 on: April 18, 2013, 09:42:42 PM »

Tried out the new intake this weekend and set up the base tune with the new 95mm MAF Tube.  The car is running pretty well... rich, but not too bad.  Safe to continue.

PRJ - I appreciate the post.  It reminds me why I posted the build here: To learn to tune from start to finish.  The right way. 

My patience was pretty decent throughout the mechanical portion of the build.  Now, I think is the most difficult time.  When the car is running and driving, yet nowhere close to "done".  Too easy to want take shortcuts.

My question is for the gurus, where in the tuning process are you setting up Boost PID? http://nefariousmotorsports.com/forum/index.php?topic=517.0

It seems like if tuning on the street, this would immediately follow the rough fueling and maf tuning.  Meaning, once the car is running decently with safe AFRs.   Is this correct?   It doesn't seem like one could fine tune anything else until boost is under control.

Anyhow, test fitting this weekend:




And a couple more pics from the last few months.   





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pablo53
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« Reply #26 on: April 18, 2013, 10:49:36 PM »

More Info on this DREAM build Please !!! Prettiest Eye Candy I've ever seen. Would you have done anything differently ?? I will be Building my A6 soon !!! By the way the Bore, your Built heads and quick spooling Turbos are why this Engine Revs so quickly !!!

As a whole, I wouldn't do much differently.  Here are a few things I was proud of, and some things to think about:
Machine shop, Import Engine Supply did a great job on the block/heads/crank/ and verifying pin fitment/rod fitment.  They Spec'd everything down to the 10,000th, and taught me a ton..... just make sure you tell your machinist - better yet, write in paint pen on the crank - to not fill in the crank pin hole when balancing the RA.

Be sure to transfer the oil pump cog from the 2.7 crank.  They are different sizes.  10 minutes in the freezer and install is a piece of cake.
Install the front and rear flanges with oil pump chain and tensioner right after you get the rotating assembly in.  THEN do the other things like oil pump/upper oil pan.

Speaking of oil pump/upper oil pan, if you go with main studs, be sure to test fit, grind, and re fit until these will fit with clearance on pump/pan with the main studs torqued.   Do this prior to ever pulling the crank out of the plastic.

Plan for many, many hours when file fitting your rings.

I would use some assembly lube without Moly' next time.  The oil filter on change after first start up weighed a ton. 

I would consider skipping on the non-stretch headbolts next time - just because it sucks cracking open your valve covers again after its starts and warms up but before you drive it... It is good to have the insurance though.  Also, if you go with 034/Eurospec Headbolts, they use the regular 12pt not the polydrive.  I was kicking myself and cursing them for a week while I waited for the 12pt to arrive.
 
Lots of questions still to be answered though:
  • How will these intercoolers perform on this setup? 
    Will the RS6Rs flow enough for a 3L to take advantage of the build heads?
    Will the clutch hold?  (I was on the fence between the ceramic and the feramic.  I went with drivability and crossed fingers)
    Damn did I torque the rod bolts?  Kidding.
    And what kind of torque/power will this make
    What will my ET/TRAP be at Firebird International Raceway (FIR) this summer @ 2700 feet above sealevel?

I'd have liked to have used 4032 alloy pistons, but I didn't see an option for them on a stroker build. Maybe Supertech?  If this motor fails, I will go with these: http://www.intengineering.com/mahle-2-7t-30v-piston-set-81-5mm-bore-86-4mm-stroke-9-1-cr
My spare block is already bored/honed for them.   Another thought would be to build a high compression E85 motor, but then we are back to the higher thermal expansion alloy.

ANYONE HAVE A CONNECTION ON 4032 Alloy Custom Pistons for stroker or high comp set-ups?

Everything about this build is for a daily driver with a mean torque curve.   Warming up the car for 15 minutes gets to be a chore every morning.

Need any parts for your build?  What's left of the the gray car is for sale!!



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prj
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« Reply #27 on: April 19, 2013, 01:54:51 AM »

You can just tune with fixed DC through LDRAPP, KFLDRAPP and CWMDAPP.
Boost control is the last thing really.

Using LDRAPP or KFLDRAPP to fix the duty cycle will also allow you to visit more load sites if road tuning.
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peter
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« Reply #28 on: April 19, 2013, 03:38:37 AM »

Wow I am Amazed at your skill level and dedication !! Again awesome build and I used to Race my cars at Firebird as well, I also am a Chaplain with RFC and used to support that track as well as SCCA events. I am an IE DEALER so whatever you want let me know and I'll help out the best I can...
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« Reply #29 on: April 20, 2013, 11:52:31 AM »

The problem with the ASJ/AZR is that all that stuff about nice spray pattern goes to waste, because you will be spraying that dual cone of yours exactly into the manifold/port wall.
For RS4 application it is much better to either just get the 980cc Bosch Motorsport with 30 degree cone... or there is actually ONE injector Bosch produces that matches the specs quite well and does not cost 2000 EUR a piece Wink
These with dual narrow cone will need lots of wall film adjustment to get good throttle response.
if i read the datasheet right these injectors will fit quite the same, apart from that they are not compact style like 980cc, spacers needed for rs4, no big deal, jet inclination is the same/none in both cases, or am I missing smth?
http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm235/jibberjive/VE%20Intake%20Manifold/RS4_Study_Guide_Injectors.jpg
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