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Author Topic: WG PID-Regulator, Motronic 2.3  (Read 21983 times)
karel5000
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« on: March 05, 2013, 03:34:20 PM »

Hello,

i search for the address of the Map of the PID-Regulator (on the constant Value) of the Wasegate. Does something exist? Or how can i set it? I drive Audi 200 20V and the Regulator oscilates...

Thanks!
Karel5000
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vdubnation
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« Reply #1 on: March 05, 2013, 03:38:42 PM »

this may help

http://www.nefariousmotorsports.com/wiki/index.php/LDRPID_25.10_%28Charge_Pressure_Regulation_PID_Control%29
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karel5000
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« Reply #2 on: March 05, 2013, 04:12:53 PM »

Thanks. It seems to be a regulation of a turbocharger of a newer Bosch system. Nevertheless very interesting...
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prj
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« Reply #3 on: March 06, 2013, 04:21:00 AM »

It doesn't oscillate for the reason you think it does.
This ECU does not have classical PID, it's PI with self-learning P.
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Acki
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« Reply #4 on: March 06, 2013, 08:19:37 AM »

It doesn't oscillate for the reason you think it does.
This ECU does not have classical PID, it's PI with self-learning P.

Some ECM only shows this after some mileage. So it's important to understand the type of regulator Smiley
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karel5000
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« Reply #5 on: March 06, 2013, 01:17:36 PM »

If i drive the 300kPa quick pressure sensor from Ultimot, the regulator seems to be oscillating in the part load (0,5-1bar relativ). If i use the 250kPa slower pressure sensor from Bosch, i have no problems. Also it must be someting with the regulation. How can i fix it?

Thanks,
Karel5000
« Last Edit: March 06, 2013, 01:19:27 PM by karel5000 » Logged
prj
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« Reply #6 on: March 06, 2013, 01:26:24 PM »

Quick pressure? Slow pressure?
What a load of bullshit...

You can fix it by calibrating the boost control correctly in the ECU, and not just fooling it with a bigger sensor.

Example:
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karel5000
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« Reply #7 on: March 06, 2013, 01:41:22 PM »

In my case it oscillates because of my setup - smaller RS2 Turbocharger and the bigger wagner exhaust manifold. The problem is not, what you type. You can turn with N75 as you want and it will always oscillate...
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prj
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« Reply #8 on: March 06, 2013, 01:45:30 PM »

In my case it oscillates because of my setup - smaller RS2 Turbocharger and the bigger wagner exhaust manifold. The problem is not, what you type. You can turn with N75 as you want and it will always oscillate...

No, it won't.
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Acki
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« Reply #9 on: March 06, 2013, 02:02:27 PM »

If i drive the 300kPa quick pressure sensor from Ultimot, the regulator seems to be oscillating in the part load (0,5-1bar relativ). If i use the 250kPa slower pressure sensor from Bosch, i have no problems. Also it must be someting with the regulation. How can i fix it?

And between both sensor you modified the boost table?
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karel5000
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« Reply #10 on: March 06, 2013, 02:04:30 PM »

If you write 0x0 in the map of N75, the turbo pressure will not increase above the basic pressure ca. 0,4 bar. If you write 0x1 inside, the pressure will accelerate and than oscilate. It is one example of the behaviour of my setup. Also how do you want to tune the map correct? The quicker 300kpa pressure sensor from Ultimot does it, the 250 oder 200kpa one from Bosch not. In every controll system can you make up conditions, which leads to oscilating, especially in the systems with the bigger delay of the regulation...
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karel5000
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« Reply #11 on: March 06, 2013, 02:07:57 PM »

And between both sensor you modified the boost table?

Yes. With the 300kPa from Ultimot i had written in the map of N75 0x1. It oscillates. With the 250kPa from Bosch you can drive with higher numbers and it seems ok.
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karel5000
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« Reply #12 on: March 06, 2013, 02:14:08 PM »

Probably in some next days i will measure the voltage of the N75 with my oscilloscop with the 0x01 in the map and post it. Then i will be sure what exactly happen...
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prj
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« Reply #13 on: March 06, 2013, 02:16:06 PM »

If you write 0x0 in the map of N75, the turbo pressure will not increase above the basic pressure ca. 0,4 bar. If you write 0x1 inside, the pressure will accelerate and than oscilate. It is one example of the behaviour of my setup. Also how do you want to tune the map correct? The quicker 300kpa pressure sensor from Ultimot does it, the 250 oder 200kpa one from Bosch not. In every controll system can you make up conditions, which leads to oscilating, especially in the systems with the bigger delay of the regulation...

Look, you have no idea how this works. Of course it will oscillate if you put 0x1 in there.
It has nothing to do with the sensor being Bosch, Motorola or otherwise.

The MAP is sampled 5 times per cycle and the highest value is picked once per cycle. Which is why what you are saying is completely useless.
If you set the map to 0x01 you essentially are running only P, so it will oscillate like crazy.
There is no "slower" or "quicker" sensor, this is complete bullshit.

Only way you will find out how it works is IDA Pro. All your guesses are completely wrong so far.
I have tuned these cars with 200, 250, 300, 350, 400, 700kpa MAP sensors without any issues. P is adaptive, it learns rate of climb, you rarely need to adjust it.
This control system will only oscillate if you map it wrong, which is what you are doing. And you are not going to be able to map it right unless you can log actual vs requested N75 DC.
The log I posted was with a 400kpa sensor as you can see with zero issues holding 1.7 bar boost.

You can do this either with McMess or like me with a custom protocol implemented in the ECU.
Just buy VEMS or something, you are never going to get this running. I spent more than 3 years on this, and I have a very good understanding of code. I also have no intent whatsoever to spoon feed any information.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2013, 02:22:10 PM by prj » Logged

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karel5000
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« Reply #14 on: March 06, 2013, 02:46:56 PM »

So, if P is fully selfadaptive and the map is only I part, so why it does not oscillate, if i write 0x0 inside?

If it is the same if i use 250kpa or 300kpa sensor, why is it significantly different by me?

Have you ever measured the time response of some pressure or some other sensors? It is interesting. For example those from Motorola are also quicker than those from Bosch...
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