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prj
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« Reply #15 on: April 07, 2013, 08:11:55 AM »
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I am very surprised, that such an old knock management system is so sophysticated. Can you tune the knock pre-windows, knock windows, frequencies (for each cylinder separetely), gain...? Yes. I would like to know, if the known tuning companies also adjust the knock maps during tuning... Some "pro-tuners" turn it off. Haven't seen anyone properly adjust anything. As for reliability, I have per-cylinder KR in real time and I have car on dyno, and every event I hear I can see in real time in the log. I don't bother with headphones for these anymore. I only verify at start that everything is OK (incase of heavily modified engine or incorrectly torqued knock sensors) and after that I just look at logs. Knock recognition works perfectly in this ECU. |
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karel5000
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« Reply #16 on: April 07, 2013, 08:53:16 AM »
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It is very nice to hear, that the knock control works so nice. So i will test, if it works also good by me (i have a chip from PK-Motorsport, Germany, i do not know, how well they do it) and than i can eventually set the ignition to the knock border (the border, where a small knock appears from time to time) without problem:-)
I have my engine and the turbo boost a bit modified, also i have a bit more MAF during a full load. I gess about 50ps more. It could already have an influence on the knock window, what do you think?
Are the seven maps arround and behind the addresses ca. 0x1CE4, 0x1D64 in the boost chip these knock maps?
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prj
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« Reply #17 on: April 07, 2013, 01:01:09 PM »
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It could already have an influence on the knock window, what do you think? You need to look into how knock control works. Knock window is not something to do with how much torque you are making at all. You seem very confused ... Mostly no adjustment is required. I mapped a 650hp engine recently and it worked perfectly with the stock settings. Also, you will be never be able to set your timing correctly on this ECU without good logging ... |
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karel5000
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« Reply #18 on: April 07, 2013, 04:14:49 PM »
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You need to look into how knock control works. Knock window is not something to do with how much torque you are making at all. You seem very confused ...
Mostly no adjustment is required. I mapped a 650hp engine recently and it worked perfectly with the stock settings.
Generally, the time, whenn knocking accures, is strongly dependent on MAF or the indicated pressure. This i can guarantee. It is very logical. That is, why the knock window is to be adjusted after some bigger modifications... |
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« Last Edit: April 07, 2013, 11:39:23 PM by karel5000 »
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prj
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« Reply #19 on: April 08, 2013, 12:03:14 AM »
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Generally, the time, whenn knocking accures, is strongly dependent on MAF or the indicated pressure. This i can guarantee. It is very logical. That is, why the knock window is to be adjusted after some bigger modifications... No, you are wrong. Knock window is the time when knocking is the most likely to occur. The window is after the spark event. The knock sensor is sampled during the window and the highest sample is compared to the average, and knock detection is done from this coefficient. You do not need to do anything with knock window at all. It depends more on engine RPM. Read a little how digital knock detection works, because right now it seems you have no idea... |
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Acki
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« Reply #20 on: April 08, 2013, 07:36:09 AM »
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I use a Knock Box for this. Most tuners which use this, solder the Knock Block at the pins of the ECM and disconnect the pins direct to the ECM. That they do to know how good is the signal which goes into the ECM and to have the knocking still present during the dyno pull. At long dyno pulls you have the engine damaged till you see the knock in the datalog (when timing will be retarded) or you don't know if the detection works or not... Here some information which could help: http://www.rhinopower.org/knock/docs/AN3772.pdfhttp://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/tpic8101.pdfhttp://www.rhinopower.org/knock/docs/TPIC8101_pres.pdfhttp://www.rhinopower.org/knock/docs/HIP9011_evb.pdfhttp://www.rhinopower.org/knock/docs/Prosak_app.pdfThe Bosch CC195 is used in newer Motronics I believe. Somewhere I had information about older CC from Bosch. Don't find it know. How ever, Knockwindow is a must have when you don't run fixed ignition. The problem with time constant and crank angle constant events... Helpful for me would be to know how the "knocking maps" are look like at a M2.3-2.5 motronic. They should be present in the normal ECM software chip because there I won't find big differences between I5 and V8. |
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prj
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« Reply #21 on: April 08, 2013, 08:37:39 AM »
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In V8 3.6 PT the knock control is done by a completely different software compared to 2.2T.
It has only internal ROM and is not possible to modify. Does ABH have two chips? Never looked inside those.
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Acki
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« Reply #22 on: April 08, 2013, 09:36:16 AM »
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ABH has only one chip - 64 KB  When I speak about V8, then I speak about my 4.2 ABH I know that sometimes they also used analog circuits for the knock detection. I have to check the 4.2 ECM circuit. I only installed the emulator and was happy to be able to start working on it. A friend gave me a 3.6 V8 ECM - I will compare both 1:1. But I don't have a I5 to be able to compare this too. In the first step only to identify the ICs etc. - which could be important for knock detection etc. Possible that knock "software" is on extra small eprom or hard in an ROM. |
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prj
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« Reply #23 on: April 08, 2013, 10:04:49 AM »
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Yes then it's the same like 3.6... the software is in the ROM of the chip on the bottom board.
Nothing you can do with it ...
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karel5000
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« Reply #24 on: April 08, 2013, 10:14:26 AM »
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No, you are wrong.
Knock window is the time when knocking is the most likely to occur. The window is after the spark event.
The knock sensor is sampled during the window and the highest sample is compared to the average, and knock detection is done from this coefficient.
You do not need to do anything with knock window at all. It depends more on engine RPM.
Read a little how digital knock detection works, because right now it seems you have no idea...
Some engines i know have all the knock maps MAF dependent and the windows have definitely nothing to do directly with ignition angle... You must learn to accept also the ideas of other people. Maybe you are right but maybe others are also right in spite of the fact they say something different as you. It is much better for exchane of experience because there are more engine management systems on the market... |
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« Last Edit: April 08, 2013, 11:38:16 AM by karel5000 »
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karel5000
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« Reply #25 on: April 08, 2013, 12:13:19 PM »
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Helpful for me would be to know how the "knocking maps" are look like at a M2.3-2.5 motronic.
They should be present in the normal ECM software chip because there I won't find big differences between I5 and V8.
I have found some maps at the addresses at the end of the boost chip, which i posted yesterday in this thread. Because in the lower load range (i gess somewhere till 0.2bar relative by turbo engines) no knock occures, it can theoreticaly be these maps, because some have zeros inside. Maybe it corresponds whith this behaviour. But i only gess, i have not seen it so yet... Ï think, the knock setting is absolutely different in comparison to 5 or 8 cylinder engines. The blocks are absolutely different, another number of cylinders, another pistons, another compression... If the knock managements are good, they should also have a separate maps for every cylinder... If you would like to compare also the software from 5T, i can send it to you |
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« Last Edit: April 08, 2013, 12:19:52 PM by karel5000 »
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prj
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« Reply #26 on: April 08, 2013, 01:24:23 PM »
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Some engines i know have all the knock maps MAF dependent and the windows have definitely nothing to do directly with ignition angle... Dude, knock window by definition IS exactly dependent on ignition angle. The earlier the mixture is ignited, the earlier you need to start to listen for knock and vice versa and this is exactly how it works in the ECU! I think you don't understand what knock window means. There is nothing for me to accept or learn from you about this, because you are confusing even the simplest terms. The time duration of the knock window is mostly dependent on RPM, the start of it is again influenced by RPM and ignition timing. Don't care how it's done in some other ECU, because that's not the point here, is it? Also, you don't need to adjust this at all. I already told you it works fine on 650hp engine with std. settings. |
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« Last Edit: April 08, 2013, 01:33:04 PM by prj »
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Acki
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« Reply #27 on: April 09, 2013, 05:02:53 AM »
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Maybe he also sees it load related and miss the information about the ignition?
@karel: Can you upload the complete bin files? top and bottom? At RS2/S4/S6 datasets which I have I have nothing at you adresses.
I guess there is some additional map to get an boost related impact.
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prj
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« Reply #28 on: April 09, 2013, 05:19:18 AM »
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There isn't. Everything karel5000 said about knock control in M2.3 so far has been wrong.
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Acki
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« Reply #29 on: April 09, 2013, 05:24:20 AM »
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Ok  But neithertheless I would like to see those maps at other applications to get a feeling for this. Also how the knock control works, in the SSP it's said that it also makes the fuel mixture richer - is this true? |
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