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Author Topic: KLDPDK and huge intercoolers  (Read 10219 times)
masterj
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« on: April 22, 2013, 09:50:54 AM »

Hi, guys!
I was going through FUEDK function and noticed somewhat of a interesting map: KLDPDK. I don't know if I understand this correctly but this is supposed to help with pressure drop at throttle plate. So, question:
If someone has HUGE intercooler couldn't they just increase values here to countermeasure pressure drop?

Maybe I'm completely wrong on this, but would like some ideas. Thanks
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Bische
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« Reply #1 on: April 23, 2013, 06:50:19 AM »

Hi, guys!
I was going through FUEDK function and noticed somewhat of a interesting map: KLDPDK. I don't know if I understand this correctly but this is supposed to help with pressure drop at throttle plate. So, question:
If someone has HUGE intercooler couldn't they just increase values here to countermeasure pressure drop?

Maybe I'm completely wrong on this, but would like some ideas. Thanks

The boost is measured post intercooler, so there is nothing to compensate for. That map is a correction map for pressure drop over the TB, since the intake pressure is modeled.
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userpike
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« Reply #2 on: April 23, 2013, 08:45:21 PM »

Hi, guys!
I was going through FUEDK function and noticed somewhat of a interesting map: KLDPDK. I don't know if I understand this correctly but this is supposed to help with pressure drop at throttle plate. So, question:
If someone has HUGE intercooler couldn't they just increase values here to countermeasure pressure drop?

Maybe I'm completely wrong on this, but would like some ideas. Thanks

I believe KFZW and KFTARX, mainly KFTARX, is what you need to tune for a larger intercooler.
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prj
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« Reply #3 on: April 24, 2013, 06:35:34 AM »


I believe KFZW and KFTARX, mainly KFTARX, is what you need to tune for a larger intercooler.

Would you care to say why?
Because none of what you said makes sense.
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catbed
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« Reply #4 on: April 24, 2013, 10:30:18 AM »

Why would you need to tune for intercoolers? IAT and charge pressure sensors are post intercooler(s).
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userpike
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« Reply #5 on: April 24, 2013, 12:20:49 PM »

Would you care to say why?
Because none of what you said makes sense.


 KFTARX (Intake air temperature correction for air charge) It was explained to me to properly tune for this you need to know the exact specs of the intercooler (size, flow, efficiency) to scale the values correctly. I asked Nottingham how to do the math but the guy is MIA for months now and has yet to answer my PM back of which we had been having conversation on this subject. The Cupra R models come with factory FMIC and the regular 1.8t Cupra comes with the small side mount. After comparing the files, the major differences are here and KFZW.

Please correct me where I'm wrong PRJ. I said "I believe" because this is how it was explained to me and what I also determined myself accurate after reading the FR. Translating German to English is a task in itself though, and Google Translate is not perfect.

Why would you need to tune for intercoolers? IAT and charge pressure sensors are post intercooler(s).

  Exactly!

More ignition advance generally makes more power so you want to tune KFZW to "match" the lower IATs your aftermarket intercooler(s) allows. In other words you should be able to get more timing advance with a larger intercooler because it gets the IAT's cooler and cooler for a longer duration when compared to stock (say NO to heat soaked small intercooler @ WOT when you finally get to 3rd gear..)
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prj
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« Reply #6 on: April 24, 2013, 12:50:16 PM »


 KFTARX (Intake air temperature correction for air charge) It was explained to me to properly tune for this you need to know the exact specs of the intercooler (size, flow, efficiency) to scale the values correctly. I asked Nottingham how to do the math but the guy is MIA for months now and has yet to answer my PM back of which we had been having conversation on this subject. The Cupra R models come with factory FMIC and the regular 1.8t Cupra comes with the small side mount. After comparing the files, the major differences are here and KFZW.

Please correct me where I'm wrong PRJ. I said "I believe" because this is how it was explained to me and what I also determined myself accurate after reading the FR. Translating German to English is a task in itself though, and Google Translate is not perfect.

  Exactly!

Yea you are completely wrong. Look where the IAT sensor is on your car.
Why would you need to touch KFTARX? Do you even know what the map does? Please do explain.

Quote
More ignition advance generally makes more power so you want to tune KFZW to "match" the lower IATs your aftermarket intercooler(s) allows. In other words you should be able to get more timing advance with a larger intercooler because it gets the IAT's cooler and cooler for a longer duration when compared to stock (say NO to heat soaked small intercooler @ WOT when you finally get to 3rd gear..)

There is IAT based timing correction already. Why would you need to adjust the main timing map???
By your logic every winter you would need to tune KFTARX and KFZW... I think you need to put down ME7 and pick up a book that deals with forced induction motors. Some brushing up on the ideal gas law that gets taught in primary school is probably a good idea too :/

This thread is completely ridiculous. To put it bluntly, there is absolutely nothing you have to do when changing charge cooling.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2013, 12:52:17 PM by prj » Logged

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userpike
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« Reply #7 on: April 24, 2013, 11:14:18 PM »

Yea you are completely wrong. Look where the IAT sensor is on your car.
Why would you need to touch KFTARX? Do you even know what the map does? Please do explain.

There is IAT based timing correction already. Why would you need to adjust the main timing map???
By your logic every winter you would need to tune KFTARX and KFZW... I think you need to put down ME7 and pick up a book that deals with forced induction motors. Some brushing up on the ideal gas law that gets taught in primary school is probably a good idea too :/

This thread is completely ridiculous. To put it bluntly, there is absolutely nothing you have to do when changing charge cooling.

The IAT sensor is in the intake manifold, right after the TB. I don't understand why this means anything at this point. Will you please explain?
 
Since I am completely wrong, why are you asking me to explain what the map does? It's like you are trying to get me to make up some mumbojumbo or something..
I obviously don't understand what the map does. Please! do explain sir what the map does.

I know you are a super guru when it comes to this stuff. If you are going to speak up, please at least back up what you are saying with some kind of explanation and with some understanding that most people on this forum aren't making a living doing this and are amateurs at best.
I'm sorry you get annoyed when people are wrong in what you are a professional in. (I've read some of your other posts..) Just telling people they're wrong isn't really helping anyone. I don't understand how it would make you feel better either.

What I know about KFTARX ( what I thought I knew about it rather..) I posted already. I didn't even know it existed until it was brought up in prior conversation with another member. I'm not denying I'm wrong (or him), the truth is, it was explained it to me like this after it was brought up in  prior(months prior) conversation and I didn't understand. I assumed he was correct and it made sense to me at the time..

"Why would you need to adjust the main timing map???" Don't you anyway? Can't you get just that little bit more timing because it's made "available" via colder IAT's @ the higher rpms and load?(comparing to the stock intercooler setup) I guess really throughout the whole rpm range. 
I noticed how you worded this: "there is absolutely nothing you have to do when changing charge cooling" I'm NOT saying this must be done to use larger intercoolers, just saying you can reap more timing advance in the range where the ECU would normally back it off due to high IAT's because of a stock intercooler becoming heat soaked.

As far as my logic with the winter tuning: I live in FL, USA. Winter here is like 76F and sunny and for like only a week...might hit the 30's 2 or 3 days a year...I don't even own a heavy coat or jacket! It's pretty consistent around here...usually somewhere in the 80's.


just want to make it known that my tone here is not "smart-ass". I seriously want to understand what this map is about. I assure you your explanation won't go to waste.
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prj
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« Reply #8 on: April 25, 2013, 12:13:13 AM »

Look, your problem is you do not understand what an intercooler does on a turbocharged car.
It cools the air charge, period.

The IAT sensor is AFTER the intercooler. If your air is going to be colder, even with factory maps the timing is going to be more advanced (ZWWL). This is true for ANY ecu.
KFTARX is filling correction based on IAT. You do not need to touch that, as your temperature will be lower, so filling will already be higher.

All an intercooler does is make the intake air somewhat colder, there are already correction maps present for IAT. Does not matter if you have an intercooler there at all, timing and filling will be adjusted accordingly. There are reasons to modify KFTARX, but changing charge cooling isn't one of them.
KFTARX is very different in the stock calibration on different cars.
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nyet
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« Reply #9 on: April 25, 2013, 08:11:02 AM »

My two cents on KFTARX

http://s4wiki.com/wiki/Tuning#IAT_effect_on_requested_boost

No clue if i'm right.
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« Reply #10 on: April 25, 2013, 08:32:12 AM »

My two cents on KFTARX

http://s4wiki.com/wiki/Tuning#IAT_effect_on_requested_boost

No clue if i'm right.

1. If KFTARX is flat, boost is already going to decrease, as you are requesting filling, not boost and filling increases as KFTARX increases.
2. There are very different KFTARX calibrations. There are ones where it's backed down when cold (as ignition angle efficiency is going to increase) and it tries to always keep the same power, as well as there are other calibration where there is more load requested when cold. Just depends on the factory calibrators mood I guess.
3. KFTARX has nothing to do whatsoever with intercooler size...
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nyet
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« Reply #11 on: April 25, 2013, 08:37:57 AM »

1. If KFTARX is flat, boost is already going to decrease, as you are requesting filling, not boost and filling increases as KFTARX increases.

My understanding is that for a given target filling, pressure is higher as temp goes up, since hotter air at a specific pressure contains less mass.
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prj
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« Reply #12 on: April 25, 2013, 08:47:41 AM »

My understanding is that for a given target filling, pressure is higher as temp goes up, since hotter air at a specific pressure contains less mass.

Correct, so req. boost is going to decrease as the temperature goes down even with flat KFTARX.
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userpike
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« Reply #13 on: May 07, 2013, 11:18:39 AM »

Correct, so req. boost is going to decrease as the temperature goes down even with flat KFTARX.

So KFTARX has nothing to do with the volume of air between the turbo and intake manifold?

Will you give some examples of when you personally would change KFTARX please? and why you did it?  I just can't wrap my head around this.
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« Reply #14 on: May 07, 2013, 11:23:13 AM »

Stock ECU requests more boost for a given IAT (even after density corrections) because you will see significantly less timing with high IATs. So it compensates so the driver has a consistent experience.

When you are running a lot of boost, increasing boost is unlikely to compensate for that.

In general, at very high boost levels, a flat or decreasing KFTARX will get you the most hp over a large range of IAT.

You can, of course, experiment yourself, starting with a flat KFTARX, and see what happens as you IATs go up. With very high IAT, do you get more power with more boost, less timing, or less boost, more timing?

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Please do not ask me for tunes. I'm here to help people make their own.

Do not PM me technical questions! Please, ask all questions on the forums! Doing so will ensure the next person with the same issue gets the opportunity to learn from your experience.
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