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Author Topic: Methanol as a Primary Fuel  (Read 12598 times)
Mantis
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« on: June 05, 2013, 05:46:51 PM »

Hello all

First off, thanks to all contributing members, the information that is contained within this site and the wiki are incredible. 

I have been working on dialing in the gasoline + w/m fueling on my FT21 tune, which I now have nailed down with 0.0 LTFT, and 0.0 idle corrections, I currently have EV14 750cc's, the reason for the large injectors is to enable me to run Methanol as a primary fuel or more on point M85.

I have read through the E85 tuning discussion and have gathered that because our ECU's read lambda we should in theory be able to increase KRTE by the effective fuel mass requirement between n-heptane and M85, which happens to be 1.7.  After a couple moments of adaptation my wideband would/should read 14.7 or lambda 1, which would actually correspond to the M85 lambda 1 which is approx 8:1, or M100 which is 6:1

I understand that methanol is slightly tricky to dial in and it is critical to not run lean as it violently detonates, so I would adjust LAMFA and KFLBTS accordingly to run a slightly richer mixture.

Any thoughts or input is greatly appreciated.  I will keep my progress updated here
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matchew
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« Reply #1 on: June 05, 2013, 08:01:17 PM »

After a couple moments of adaptation my wideband would/should read 14.7 or lambda 1, which would actually correspond to the M85 lambda 1 which is approx 8:1, or M100 which is 6:1

Do you wish to clarify what you mean by this?
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Mantis
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« Reply #2 on: June 05, 2013, 08:12:51 PM »

Certainly,  I anticipate my wideband dancing a bit on initial changeover of fuel

My wideband will continue to read AFR 14.7 when lambda is 1
When lambda is 1 for fuel type M100, AFR is 6, my wideband will still read 14.7
When lambda is 1 for fuel type M85, AFR is approx 8, my wideband will still read 14.7

I will be targeting 11.1-11.5 AFR on my gauge in order to ensure a sufficiently rich mixture as lean conditions are not favorable with M85
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prj
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« Reply #3 on: June 05, 2013, 10:50:05 PM »

Some notes about methanol as primary fuel:

* You will need a compatible fuel cell.
* The engine oil must be changed every 1000 km, due to massive contamination.
* Methanol binds water very easily, so the fuel cell must be hermetically sealed or you must fill the fuel every time you go driving.
* A methanol compatible fuel system is big money, for example a metal fuel tank can not be used and so on, this includes pipework.
* The fuel consumption is huge.
* The engine needs tighter clearances and tolerances, as otherwise you will have a methanol mist coming out of the breather.

Are you aware of this? Running straight methanol as fuel is something only for specifically prepared vehicles. E85 is a different story.
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Mantis
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« Reply #4 on: June 06, 2013, 04:41:26 AM »

I do understand this, my project car is a custom single turbo conversion A6, the entire fuel system has been altered, I am looking at using my S4 as a testbed for my project car. 

I would not be running methanol as a daily driver on the S4, also I will be running a ratio closer to 70% (M70) to prevent much of the corrosion issues.

I appreciate all input and will take it into consideration

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NOTORIOUS VR
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« Reply #5 on: June 06, 2013, 06:26:25 AM »

750cc's & Methanol won't get you far at all.

I wouldn't touch that stuff as a primary fuel unless it was a sole drag car.  What made you choose it?

Also, I hope you understand the health risks associated with Methanol and are taking the proper precautions.
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prj
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« Reply #6 on: June 06, 2013, 07:39:16 AM »

I do understand this, my project car is a custom single turbo conversion A6, the entire fuel system has been altered, I am looking at using my S4 as a testbed for my project car. 

I would not be running methanol as a daily driver on the S4, also I will be running a ratio closer to 70% (M70) to prevent much of the corrosion issues.

I appreciate all input and will take it into consideration

You can't put any methanol into your S4 without first changing the entire fuel system.
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CoupedUp
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« Reply #7 on: June 06, 2013, 09:01:25 AM »

Also, make sure, if it has one, that the fuel cell anti-slosh foam is methanol approved. I watched a hydro boat fight issues all day because the methanol was eating the foam and going upstream to the injectors.

But as said previously it's a pretty silly feat. However, innovation and pioneering is gratifying.
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Mantis
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« Reply #8 on: June 06, 2013, 12:21:00 PM »

You can't put any methanol into your S4 without first changing the entire fuel system.

I beg to differ, I ran up to a 50/50, M5 methanol/Petro 94 blend last year on several occasions.  I just added in some extra fuel with lemmi, and bumped up the timing. 

Much of the corrosive tendencies as well as some of the toxicity is combated by staying closer to a 70/30 mixture.

My 750cc were benched at 3bar, as well as 3.5bar @ 820cc. I can safely run them up to 5 bar, I have upgraded the fuel pump to the walbro 455 alky compatible


As for my A6, the entire fuel system has been changed, lines, pump, cell, rails, FPR, running ID2000
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Mantis
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« Reply #9 on: June 06, 2013, 12:24:06 PM »

Guys, I should tell you that I am not trying to be a trailblazer here, but in Alberta Canada there is no and I mean no way that you will ever find E85, except the VP race jazz that runs over 1K a barrel.  Methanol on the other hand is abundant and cheap due to our close proximity to the oil sands
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Axis
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« Reply #10 on: June 06, 2013, 01:55:34 PM »

You can't put any methanol into your S4 without first changing the entire fuel system.
Mix of 10% methanol instead of ethanol in your daily fuel is something that is tested and could soon be a reality in some countries.
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prj
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« Reply #11 on: June 06, 2013, 03:47:33 PM »

There is a big difference between putting in something like a 10% blend and running straight methanol.
Really big difference.

The thread says "running it as primary fuel", so that's what my comment was about. Running the S4 on straight meth without fuel system changes.
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Carsinc
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« Reply #12 on: June 11, 2013, 10:28:07 AM »

I know very little about Methanol on street cars but, big blown drag motors I've played with that run methanol is different.
You will need close to double the fuel to run it straight, Now remember I'm talking carbs here but we started with twice the size
of gas jets and almost double fuel line dia. Now if your talking alki injected motors we always used what was more or less a cis
with a big gear driven fuel pump and pop off valves for injectors. As far as the rest of the fuel system goes if the fuel sits for a
month or so in anything not completely sealed it will have alot of water in it. Oh and it burns like a sob in any cuts or your eyes. Wink
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CoupedUp
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« Reply #13 on: June 11, 2013, 12:42:38 PM »

I know very little about Methanol on street cars but, big blown drag motors I've played with that run methanol is different.
You will need close to double the fuel to run it straight, Now remember I'm talking carbs here but we started with twice the size of gas jets and almost double fuel line dia....

That's because stoichiometric for Methanol is 6.5:1 rather than 14.7:1(gasoline).
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Mantis
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« Reply #14 on: June 11, 2013, 04:09:45 PM »

I have an M70 tune in the can, I just need to find time to drain the tank and refill with my blend
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