Placebo
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« on: June 13, 2015, 08:05:35 AM »
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Hi all
Because I'm a Newby, I purchased a tuned file for my 97 aeb 1.8t and figured out how to flash the ECU. all stock except forge DV.
Pretty happy with it but now that I am learning more about tuning, I want to tweak the file for excessive KR and wonder about actual load not meeting requested load when wg 100%. I am seeking some advice.
I have been vcds logging rpm, KR via channel 20 and load via 114. for WOT 3rd gear I get KR peaking up to 9 degrees when at rpm 4k+ and load above 8.5ms.
I should modify KFZW.0 .1 .2 and retard my timing in this load/rpm range if I want to get this KR down to around 3? Correct ?
M5.9.2 does not report boost, but the boost max is 16psi from my gauge, and is about right for stock turbo? If so, I interpret actual load not meeting requested load at wg 100% as a physical limit of my k03, correct? I seem to have actual load 1-2 ms or so below requested when wg is 100% If turbo is healthy, should I be concerned about this? If so, is reducing requested torque maps the correct route to investigate to get requested and actual loads to match up?
Thanks for whatever advice you wish to share.
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tjwasiak
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« Reply #1 on: June 13, 2015, 09:25:16 AM »
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It all depends where (engine speed wise) you are getting 16psi of boost. If it is at not more then 5000-5500 RPM it should not be bad but for stock K03 you could be already running at low compressor efficiency (sometimes it is better to have lower boost as you might be just heating charge air now).
Also it would be good to check AFR using wideband oxygen sensor as your knock might be related to lean mixture.
I would check intake for leaks because 2 ms is quite big load difference.
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Placebo
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« Reply #2 on: June 13, 2015, 09:37:26 AM »
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Thanks for the advice. Now that I know 2ms is significant, will swap with my spare stock ECU and first see if loads match, should give an idea about physical vs tune issues.
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tjwasiak
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« Reply #3 on: June 13, 2015, 09:59:39 AM »
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Keep in mind that for example warn DV can be up to hold stock boost level while it may have issues with higher pressures...
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Placebo
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« Reply #4 on: June 13, 2015, 02:42:35 PM »
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Okay, swapped in stock ECU., thanks for the note about DV, is new so hopefully ok.
Did a couple of 3rd gear pulls, the requested load and actual load stay much closer, within 1 ms or thereabouts. Also, I noticed up to 4.5 degrees of KR correction for stock ECU file so maybe the max 9 degrees KR correction I see tuned isn't all that bad for this car and its sensors?
My max boost tuned is definitely below 5k rpm. Not sure what to conclude at this point other than maybe my original thought about the tuned file requesting more boost than my k03 can kick out warrants further study.
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tjwasiak
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« Reply #5 on: June 13, 2015, 03:34:16 PM »
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I would check your spark plugs (for wear and gap size) and your coils as 4,5* is too much for me in normal situation. If it were mine car I would set it up so it would have max 3* retard.
I would double check AFR as you may have some fuelling related issues causing so high retard (for example worn MAF).
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eliotroyano
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« Reply #6 on: June 13, 2015, 07:35:17 PM »
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Hi placebo those DBW ECUs are greatly dependent of MAF signal measure. I don't know which ECU are your engine using, but those VCDS log channels seems to be from another ECU type. I will suggest post some logs to take a look in detail to your issue. But first I will follow tjwasiak recommendation, check your AFRs because high KR could be due to some poor AFRs.
About logs, do good one of RPM, Air Mass, Load & KR. Seems to me that channels 002 and 024 can help. I will not log more than 2 channels at same time to have at least some useful log resolution.
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Placebo
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« Reply #7 on: June 13, 2015, 09:42:12 PM »
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Really appreciate the help. ECU is m5.9.2 558M, pretty sure I am logging correct as I had to read-up a steep hill when figuring out how to flash. Still, will double check the logs and channels for vcds for when I go to log and post as suggested.
From your feedback, it appears I really do need to check my AFR. My idle and part throttle trims look good but seems nobody can make headway on AEB tuning without wideband. Does this mean bringing it somewhere for a dyno?
Little car background about its age. Car is almost new, no kidding. I got it with only 20k on the odometer 6 mo ago for grand total of $1k. Somebody's somebody's 93 yr old mother had it sitting in limp mode in her garage for nearly 20yrs and wanted it gone and I figured I needed a project. Another $1k on towing, tires and suspension, fuel pump and other things that age with gasoline and sitting, now good as new, with even new car smell in the trunk!
Will post back with logs and also AFR once I figure out how and where to get reliable AFR info
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tjwasiak
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« Reply #8 on: June 14, 2015, 06:29:30 AM »
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Could you check and post your MAF readings?
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Placebo
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« Reply #9 on: June 14, 2015, 06:31:16 AM »
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I would check your spark plugs (for wear and gap size) and your coils as 4,5* is too much for me in normal situation. If it were mine car I would set it up so it would have max 3* retard...
Can you clarify for me? When you say max 3 degrees in normal situation, you mean during WOT logging? I see very little CF for daily driving, only during logging is it over 3 on the stock ECU. |
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tjwasiak
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« Reply #10 on: June 14, 2015, 07:18:30 AM »
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Yes, I mean maximum 3* even at WOT as it let ECU to retard it more if something bad happen. If you (or someone who made the tune you are using) have set it so it already retards 9* at WOT now engine damage may happen in "unforeseen circumstances".
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Placebo
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« Reply #11 on: June 14, 2015, 07:25:52 AM »
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Here is a log portion from my way to work on Friday. Not the best but should give you some ideas of how it is running. Will figure out how to attach files and get a better WOT run to post ASAP.
Group A: '114 Group B: '003 Group C: '020
Time Time Time Duty Cycle RPM Mass Flow T.B. Angle Ign. Timing Knock Reg. Knock Reg. Knock Reg. Knock Reg.
TIME TIME TIME
Marker STAMP ms ms ms % STAMP /min g/s ° °BTDC STAMP ° ° ° °
427.95 9.15 7.65 4.35 99.6 428.2 2240 34.79 74.2 19.5 427.69 0 0 0 0
428.73 9.55 9.45 7.5 99.6 428.98 3080 89.51 76.4 12.8 428.47 0 0 0 0
429.48 9.7 9.55 9.35 73.4 429.74 3640 108.96 81.6 18 429.23 0 0 0 0
430.26 9.7 9.45 9.2 77.7 430.51 4160 120.07 86.8 20.3 430 0 0 0 0
431.01 9.7 9.4 9.1 83.2 431.26 4560 132.64 86.8 20.3 430.76 0 0 0 0
431.76 9.7 9.4 9 91 432.01 5040 140.48 86.8 19.5 431.51 0 0 0 0
432.51 9.7 9.4 8.6 99.6 432.76 5440 145.56 86.8 23.3 432.26 2.2 0 2.2 2.2
433.26 9.7 9.45 8.05 93.8 433.51 5800 147.01 86.8 23.3 433.01 2.2 0 0.7 3
434.01 9.7 9.45 7.6 99.6 434.26 6160 146.94 86.8 21.8 433.76 1.5 0 0 2.2
434.76 9.7 9.4 8.9 87.1 435.01 4800 138.61 86.8 16.5 434.51 1.5 0 0 2.2
435.53 9.7 9.15 9 82.8 435.79 4840 139.37 86.4 17.3 435.27 3.7 0 2.2 1.5
436.29 9.7 9.1 8.95 85.9 436.54 4960 140.83 82.5 14.3 436.04 3.7 2.2 4.5 3.7
437.04 8.7 8.85 8.45 24.2 437.29 5160 107.01 59.5 24 436.79 5.2 2.2 4.5 6
437.79 9.7 8.8 8.65 80.1 438.04 4120 124.31 86.8 15 437.54 5.2 1.5 3.7 6
438.54 6.8 8.45 3.8 0 438.79 3640 15.48 12.6 37.5 438.29 5.2 1.5 3.7 5.2
439.29 6.85 8.45 0.55 0 439.55 2520 4.23 5.2 30 439.04 0 0 0 0
440.06 6.7 8.45 0.35 0 440.31 2520 2.84 3.5 30 439.81 0 0 0 0
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tjwasiak
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« Reply #12 on: June 14, 2015, 08:46:23 AM »
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MAF reading of 140g/s should give around 170-180HP which might be too much for AEB stock injectors (taking into consideration that your fuel pump harness is quite old and the pump under load may get low voltage) and that is why you have knock retard as you are running too lean. I would try to drop requested load a bit and check if it will still retard timing (do it in small amounts and log what is happening between 4500 and 5500 RPM).
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Placebo
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« Reply #13 on: June 14, 2015, 10:27:49 AM »
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Thanks for the insight! I should mention the above log was with the purchased tune file and me adjusting the kfzw maps -5% as a first attempt at tweaking it.
Think I'm going to log the stock bin for a while to diagnose the fueling issue. I know the stock loads are giving up to -4.5* KR so no use in tuning the loads until I get this fixed for the stock bin. Good reason to get me a fuel pressure gauge.
Once okay for stock, will report back and dig back into tuning.
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tjwasiak
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« Reply #14 on: June 14, 2015, 11:18:30 AM »
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Placebo, do not do italian tunes on your car. I would not change any map by percent or even by gradient. If I were you I would adjust KFZW maps only in those spots where you see excessive timing pull. You can also try to adjust (enrich) fueling in those areas (but check if it is outside closed loop because otherwise you will only screw fuel trims).
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