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Author Topic: E85 Tuning Methods  (Read 78804 times)
Matt Danger
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« Reply #15 on: August 04, 2011, 09:43:37 AM »

I'm putting an ethanol content analyzer in my car and will likely check the content after  almost every fillup.

I've read of guys doing this because the ethanol content varies between stations and deliveries. I haven't kept track of the ethanol content at the local pumps but I try to stick to 1 station that's nearby my house. So far I haven't experienced any oddities related to ethanol content fluctuation.

Quick Fuel makes a $15 e85 measurement tube, I'll probably grab one to satisfy my curiosity.



http://www.quickfueltechnology.com/specialty-parts/echecker---e85-fuel-test-tube.html

So you don't worry about being knock limited at all when tuning with E85, eh?  Knock and CF's are still good indicators to make sure the tune is safe though, right? (E85 doesn't affect the knock sensors ability to detect actual knock or anything like that, right?) I'm new-ish to MBT tuning as well, but is MBT boost independent then?

I'm still learning but in my limited experience I have not been knock limited with e85. It's very resistent to knock and so knock volts and CFs are misleading.

A lot of people tune timing based on knock and CF, including guys on regular gasoline. This is useful for people who don't have a dyno or some controlled environment to measure performance. My understanding is that the correct way to tune ignition timing is to advance until max torque is achieved or when knock occurs (then back down a little). I've been told "e85 won't knock" and in my experience this has been true.

On gasoline tuning ignition timing based on knock and CFs is fine if you don't have the luxury of a dyno. On e85 you won't get accurate feedback of the car's performance from knock volts.

I've been using the same stretch of road and monitoring my FATS. My timing logs:





So again, my answer is don't advance timing based on knock with e85. Advance until you stop making power.
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nyet
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« Reply #16 on: August 04, 2011, 09:46:03 AM »

Matt: a bit off topic, but have you ever figured out why the timing oscillates so badly between two very distinct operating points? I've seen this in many, many tunes.

It seems related to the rate of increase of MAF and/or RPM.
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NOTORIOUS VR
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« Reply #17 on: August 04, 2011, 10:12:22 AM »

I honestly believe it's related to 2 things...

how clean your MAF signal/curve is.. and knock volts...

The quieter/cleaner both are the less timing drift you will see... that's what I've noticed so far.
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phila_dot
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« Reply #18 on: August 04, 2011, 10:23:48 AM »

Matt, how do you tune for MBT without the use of an emulator?
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Matt Danger
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« Reply #19 on: August 04, 2011, 02:43:25 PM »

Matt: a bit off topic, but have you ever figured out why the timing oscillates so badly between two very distinct operating points? I've seen this in many, many tunes.

It seems related to the rate of increase of MAF and/or RPM.

No Sad I have searched and read threads (yours and others) on the topic but am unsure of the cause.

Matt, how do you tune for MBT without the use of an emulator?

Poor man's method: Log FATS times on the same stretch of road under similar conditions and increment from there. I have been doing it little by little and am uneasy about making more advances because of my inexperience.
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nyet
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« Reply #20 on: August 04, 2011, 03:24:59 PM »

Matt: a bit off topic, but have you ever figured out why the timing oscillates so badly between two very distinct operating points? I've seen this in many, many tunes.

It seems related to the rate of increase of MAF and/or RPM.

No Sad I have searched and read threads (yours and others) on the topic but am unsure of the cause.

SIGH. We need to put this on the short list of things to solve. I'm sure its hidden away in the Funktionsrahmen somewhere.

Quote
Poor man's method: Log FATS times on the same stretch of road under similar conditions and increment from there.

Heh. This is why I added HP/TQ estimation to ECUxPlot Smiley

Also, gtech (or similar accelerometer) isn't a bad way to do this kind of tuning. A much bigger problem is how fast you are going at the top of 3rd .... on a public road?
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ME7.1 tuning guide (READ FIRST)
ECUx Plot
ME7Sum checksum checker/corrrector for ME7.x

Please do not ask me for tunes. I'm here to help people make their own.

Do not PM me technical questions! Please, ask all questions on the forums! Doing so will ensure the next person with the same issue gets the opportunity to learn from your experience.
lulu2003
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« Reply #21 on: August 04, 2011, 03:50:36 PM »

Matt: a bit off topic, but have you ever figured out why the timing oscillates so badly between two very distinct operating points? I've seen this in many, many tunes.

what do you mean exactly with oscillating timing?
the frequent plots on 20 as either 25 degrees in the first diagram?
wouldn't it be more precise to see it with a correct time axis?
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nyet
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« Reply #22 on: August 04, 2011, 04:07:57 PM »

the frequent plots on 20 as either 25 degrees in the first diagram?
Yup

Quote
wouldn't it be more precise to see it with a correct time axis?

They look almost exactly the same Smiley Boy, I wish I knew the cause.
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ME7.1 tuning guide (READ FIRST)
ECUx Plot
ME7Sum checksum checker/corrrector for ME7.x

Please do not ask me for tunes. I'm here to help people make their own.

Do not PM me technical questions! Please, ask all questions on the forums! Doing so will ensure the next person with the same issue gets the opportunity to learn from your experience.
lulu2003
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« Reply #23 on: August 04, 2011, 04:15:56 PM »

can you post a WOT log with it instead of an Excel x-y map?
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nyet
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« Reply #24 on: August 04, 2011, 04:22:29 PM »

Here's one. Very old. No clue what tune its from.
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ME7.1 tuning guide (READ FIRST)
ECUx Plot
ME7Sum checksum checker/corrrector for ME7.x

Please do not ask me for tunes. I'm here to help people make their own.

Do not PM me technical questions! Please, ask all questions on the forums! Doing so will ensure the next person with the same issue gets the opportunity to learn from your experience.
silentbob
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« Reply #25 on: August 05, 2011, 12:41:49 AM »

The oscillating timing might also be a torque intervention through ignition angle out of torque coordination.   
I haven't looked at the calibration and usually you don't allow this on full load, but with all the scaling and stuff you never know.
If anyone wants to dig a bit deeper I would recommend to have a look at MDKOG and MDZW.
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silentbob
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« Reply #26 on: August 05, 2011, 02:24:23 AM »

Forgot something  Grin

Log zwist and zwbas. If zwist<zwbas you get a torque intervention through ignition angle.  Wink
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NOTORIOUS VR
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« Reply #27 on: August 05, 2011, 06:55:42 AM »

Forgot something  Grin

Log zwist and zwbas. If zwist<zwbas you get a torque intervention through ignition angle.  Wink

good to see you back on here Silentbob...

Question that I've always had... Is it worth it to rework the Optimal TQ map in the ECU to closer represent what the motor is really making?
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lulu2003
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« Reply #28 on: August 05, 2011, 07:12:21 AM »

Here's one. Very old. No clue what tune its from.

looks quite odd.

when WOT: actual boost is WAY far away from desired.
Lambda desired goes till 0.67.
Any actual lambda or WG DC?

I would say the engine is deep in BTS and not running healthy at all.
I saw similar durametric logs with fuel problems where the differential pressure tube was removed from the FPR.
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nyet
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« Reply #29 on: August 05, 2011, 10:03:48 AM »

I would say the engine is deep in BTS and not running healthy at all.

Its intentional. Its the only way to get very rich fueling (that I know of) on 91 oct through req AFR.

If there is a better way to get .6-.7 lambda from peak torque through redline, let me know Smiley
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ME7.1 tuning guide (READ FIRST)
ECUx Plot
ME7Sum checksum checker/corrrector for ME7.x

Please do not ask me for tunes. I'm here to help people make their own.

Do not PM me technical questions! Please, ask all questions on the forums! Doing so will ensure the next person with the same issue gets the opportunity to learn from your experience.
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