Having a bad Monday? 

Bottom line, there are some things that are harder to do in ME than standalone.

It doesn't mean it is impossible.

Still, the AZ criterion of "Motronic based cars are slow, so Motronic sucks" is moronic.

Let be totally honest here, everything is harder to do in ME vs. standalone.

The plain fact is engines will run on absurdly bad programming and inputs quite easily unless you're totally off.  Not saying that it's good but I've seen it many times in the past where someone gets their car tuned and it runs, heck it even makes power, but it doesn't drive properly at all.

At the end of the day, ME has a larger hold on the power output than most will ever know or admit.  Of course it's not IMPOSSIBLE, but at the end of the day not many understand exactly how deep the reach is for even the most basic control principals.  90% of "tuners" simply manipulate the ECU just enough to keep it happy for what it expects to see from it's 1000's of parameters programmed by Audi/Bosch for a docile every smooth car with a warranty since that is the easiest route to take.

A car running standalone vs a car with an ME tuned like described above will drive, and feel completely different even though they could make roughly the same power on a dyno.

Other than the processing speed of the ECM. I think a LARGE part of the reason cars are putting more power out now is how fast they can monitor sensors. I think I saw ME5 monitors the O2 10 times a second, ME7 does it 100 times per second, it allows you to push things a little further without having to worry about a condition that can cause engine failure without the ECM catching it.

And that's what my very long, very rambling post was about. You CANNOT get the throttle control from standalone you can get from a the ME7 without tons of background logic they just don't build into them because track guys don't need them. You'll NEVER build even a 450 hp car on stand alone you'd feel comfortable putting your grandma behind the wheel of and sending her to the store, period.

NOW, I did find something interesting. Anybody ever hear of these guys?

http://pi-innovo.com/openecu-module-comparison/

They make ECMs that are designed with rapid implementation in mind. They use a very easy to use interface. Their controllers can be used to control nearly anything from DSG trans, or even using solenoids to make a standard mt an AMT. 

They've been around 20 years, I ran across them looking for hybrid motor controllers, and found they had done a very interesting project in conjunction with some UK companies to take and replace the factory Bosch management because they didn't want to hack it, and they put their ECM in the car, changed the hybrid strategy, and reduced CO2 emissions 40% over the emissions drive cycle, and fuel economy went from 42 mpg, to 64. I always fealt that the VW hybrids got garbage fueling...not sure what changes they made, but PI Innovo's software meets all federal and world wide environmental standards.

They support can and linbus, they have built in OBD2 and diagnostic ability.

I wouldn't even call them stand alone, they're open source OEM. They have worked with Landrover, Range Rover, and currently make the Mk2 City Golf ECM for VW in Africa. Cool stuff.

https://connect.innovateuk.org/documents/3030546/3708203/H4V_OVERVIEW_FV_DPCHARTERS.pdf/e8018002-9c94-4ecd-b187-f4ac41135c8d

The ME5 series had ONE 16 mhz processor, so could do 16 million computations per second, and sampled the O2 10 times per second ( I can no longer confirm but believe I was taught in VW tech training)

Our Me7 ECM is a 32 bit system from 2 16 bit chips running at variable clock speed from 33 to 43 but the official speed is 25 hz, and looks at the O2 sensor 100 times per second, doing total of about 25 million computations per second up to 43 mhz.

The C167CR processor is listed at the lower end of processors on Infineon sites, it was specified for like ABS modules actually, but MOST of the better chips don't fit this socket. It looks like there WOULD be an upgrade but only to like 40 HZ.

Pi-Innovo's M670 runs at 256 mhz, it has a sample resolution of up to .001 Seconds. You can literally check the O2 and knock sensors 1000 times a second. Makes me wonder if you could even use standard narrowbands since the resolution is enough to check the frequency so much. Regardless the Pi Innovo stuff seems pretty great, easy to use, and it probably costs less than Maestro does 

They support direct injection, automatic manuals like the DSG, and much more. It's basically big enough you could run an ABS system off of it too.

This WOULD be a serious upgrade, something that can monitor the knock sensors, maf, O2, AND uses factory strategies like ME7 or something? Plus it passes readiness and stuff, would be basically undetectable even in Cali.

For example, and I've gotten a lot of shit for this but I don't care, it's tested. I have an engine builder who makes like, streetrod engines for 30 grand, does Viper engines, lots of race shit, and he told me to lean it out to 13 on my sisters mk4 GLI 1.8t which ALREADY had the APR stage 2 tune and it RAPES it. I don't have figures YET I'm doing the breather system then Im going to dyno it with the stock, APR 1 and 2, GIAC, and other tunes I've backed up to check mine against them.

I would never tune a customer car that lean, it's pushing the limits and has very little safety cushion. But if I have to drive through death valley and it pings I'd flash it, so it doesn't scare me. I ALSO bump the timing so that it's pretty much always pulling 5 -7 degrees of timing without detonation, I've shifted the octane requirements so that now I could run 96 or 99 octane it would adjust automatically, 91 is now like running 87 from the factory.

The resolution isn't enough in the ME7 ECM though and I've HEARD detonation while the ecm sees none. With the PI Innovo even you could even change the trigger signal from the knock sensors that initiates timing retard and all that good stuff.

Getting mounts, or other vibration on a heavily modded car could be easily tuned around. The limitation I think we face is the processor speed and thus the proper or BETTER resolution from the sensors. The resolution you could get from 25 BILLION computations per second would allow the diagnostic programming to pick up on misfires better and faster because a better waveform to analyze, likewise a maf that isn't reading right, or when you get a detonation or hickup the better signal res could even help you sense detonations that way.

This shit looks pretty awesome, I'm stoked that it does FSI and stuff as well, with fuel boost circuits, quad VVT control, and much others. I BELIEVE it says you get unlimited phone support too.

I looked at some stand alones. AEM EMS-4 is like a 32 bit 50 Hz processor, and their BEST kits are 200 or so. Megasquirt's NEWEST kit is only 16 bit. Haltech doesn't easily display the exact speeds but from looking at their quoted speed for sensor resolution it looks to be about 50 hz for the cheapest ones, up to 200 hz.

So it appears processor speed IS really important, and the factory setup is at least partially limited from that. I mean, think about it, the goal is to burn as lean as possible, since lean is fast, while also keeping the cylinder and EGT temps in check. And ideally if our computers are good enough, then you stay at the EXACT border of that threshold. IF you can't check the sensors enough you can't do that, then you risk crossing that threshold faster than the ecm knows and corrects. I mean, ideally if you could run it so that the temps get a little higher than you'd like for a nanosecond then pull it back to cool it slightly, you'd be golden.

Only the highest end stand alones for 2k or 3k do that while also having torque management profiles, obd, etc. I think Pi- Innovo is going to be way cheaper and more intelligent, it clearly works if they're doing things for busses, oems, etc. Their ecms are priced at OEM price level, I can't imagine it being any more than a grand for the highest level. As the site shows it requires some knowledge. I'm interested.

really funny last few posts here... ME5 does not exist and has never existed. Knowing exactly what you're talking about is really important, before you start dumping a complete logorrhoea that hundreds of n00bz will be reading and taking for absolute truth.

I didn't bother putting in the exact ECM number big whoop. Point was that we've gone from 8bit in digifant, to 16bit in the mk3 ECM, and the Audi throttle cable ECM
And now we have 32 in the mk4.

Point is processor speed DOES matter. The rest of the info is valid.

Kind of. Like I wrote you basically gain no advantage unless you spend the big money for the higher processor speed.

And the ECM gets analog signals from sensors too.

But as I was saying, the more you can push the file ignition timing and learning the fuel out to the threshold of cylinder temp or egt being out if wack and no detonation, the better.

Because of the slower processor speed you can't do that because it doesn't sense detonation fast enough. As we increase the processor speed to 256khz you're now doing 25,600,000,000 computations per second instead of 25,000,000. It means you can push the shit out of it. The 2.0t runs like 16:1 at hwy cruise.

The systems with processor speeds fast enough to justify the upgrade are thousands of dollars.

Me7 does good enough for me.

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Coming from the guy who essentially claims that motronic can sense knock as well as a modern Tricor ECM?

I gotta go, I'm trying to get in contact with the engineers at TI and tell them not to bother with this since it's not a problem and there's no gains to be had trying to reduce the load on the IC.