NefMoto

Is it possible to flash a 2.7 S4 file to a 2.7 A6 box? If it has the same chip I'm sure you can do it but are the other chips on the ECU that are car specific? I would be using an ebay cable and Nefmoto flasher through OBDII. Looking for an inexpensive way to have a back up ECU in case I brick mine. :)
Thanks!

Yes you can. If you have immo you may have to disable it.
I know of an allroad that flashed my s4 tune successfully after disabling immo.

No I dont believe NA S4s have an immobilizer but if an A6 has one and I want to use an A6 ECU what would I need to do to the A6 ECU.

I am not sure what info is help in the eeprom, would there be an immobilizer ID verification process that comes from the A6 ECU? I take it the eeprom does more base level functions while the flash chip hold the engine maps. Is that correct?

Immo circuitry and programming is completely separate from engine management part so yes, you should be able to flash the file just fine. It has been done before.

The only time you have to mock around with immo is if you took a different ECU altogether and tried stuffing it in your A6. The ECU would have to have immo circuitry and immo versions would have to match, and if they did, you can only adapt immo2, immo3 needs to be done by dealer.

This is a hear say but I believe that you could also take S4 ECU and stick it into A6. It would start etc. but you'd have key icon on your dash which you'd have to black out or something.

Thanks Julex, But my situation is actually opposite. I have an S4 and want to use an A6 ECU as they are more available and cheaper from junk yards.  I have seen a thread that talks about flashing and A6 ECU with S4 engine maps but they were using a Galetto and didnt mention anything about reflashing eeprom info, how to do that, or if it is even necessary. I imagine if the ECU is requiring an immo and the S4 doesnt have one then it wont start so I would need to bypass the A6 immo or completely swap eeprom data which sounds better anyway. I am trying to figure out if thats all that needs to be done or if there are other chips that would interfere with that.

Just seeing if anyone has done this or know if its possible before I thrown more money down the Audi toilet :)

Not all A6 accept S4 flash, last week i tried to flash 2003  A6 (4B0907551M) with S4 (8D0907551G) file, car does not start. Immo is already off.

could there be other reasons the car won't start? do the files contain the same maf tables?
When we flashed an s4 file to an allroad ecu (4Z7907551M) the car started but died due to the immo. after the immo was disabled the allroad ran like a champ.
did you validate the memory layout?
which memory layout did you use?

Hello!
Yes MAF maps are the same. Both have same Hitachi MAF.
I flashed ECU on table, not via OBD.

AFAIK 2003 A6 has BEL engine and 7.1.1 motronic, just like Allroad? No wonder it didn't work.

How do you disable immo? Thanks.

I will soon clarify the situation with ECUs. Right now I am running Allroad 4Z7907551 ECU (no letter after part ID) flashed with what seems to be M-Box S4 tune file.

When accessing ECU the "Extra" info field is blank and block 81-82 immbilizer ID fields are blank as well. What his means is that the flashed wiped out immo info from ECU...

Prior to blasting S4 tune on it both fields 100% contained relevant info with my VIN and immo ID.

I experimented with the key and put a large steel plate between the key fob and ignition and turned/started the car. The plate 100% blocked EM field so key couldn't respond. No reaction from cluster/ECU and car started just fine...

I think this proves that the immo stuff actually sits in programming of ECU not in separate chip as I thought previously.

I will experiment more to prove or discprove that, I will be flashing spare Audi A6 with Immo3 with S4 another S4 tune soon and plugging into my allroad. If the car starts then it definitely proves that once you insert your own BIN, the immo is gone.

Edit:
Took apart my key and used just the blade to start the car. With original cluster, original hardware ECU box and S4 tune, the blade would start the car and I could drive albeit with flashing "key" icon which with fully functioning Allroad BIN would not allow me to operate the car. I believe the flashing icon was because the cluster is the mediator of immo code and it couldn't get it from the key.

Once a cluster obtains the code it passes it to ECU, which in turn either accepts it and allows the car to operate or sends signal to cluster to pop the Icon. S4 doesn't have immo routines so it just ignores that particular message and doesn't ask cluster to pop the icon.

It looks like you can use any ME7.1, being it from S4, A6 or Allroad and you'll be fine on S4. Moreover, any A6/Allroad user can use any box as well and flash S4 tune but will loose immo protection.

Yes, that was similar to my friends experience minus the steel plate.
vag-tacho cable from ebay was used to disable immo.

I did not do it myself, so i can't say one way or the other.  I just emailed the s4 bin. to him and he flashed to his allroad ecu... the car started, but then died.
after using the vag-tacho cable and software off ebay to disable immo, he was able to flash the s4 bin and the car ran fine.

I ordered a cable so i can test this myself.

it seems both your car and the allroad started, but the allroad died for some reason.  I think you are correct about the location off immo coding because if the coding was still there your car would not run on the s4 tune as you stated.

Depending on UPS, I might have an A6 ECU with completely different immo code on it in today and will see if flashing this guy with S4 tune works ok. It should be a pretty good test since my allroad has immo3 in the cluster. If it works the way I think it will, e.g. immo in ECU will get neutered by S4 tune, I should be able to just start the car and go my merry way...

Will keep posted.

Independent of Immo and A6 to S4 to Allroad, does anyone know if a tip ECU can be flashed and used in a 6-speed car, or does the TCU and/or whatever other programming mess something up?

Tip ECU with 6 speed software? Yes.

Yeah, tip ECU with 6-speed software, in a 6-speed car.  So you've successfully ran a tip ECU in a manual car and verified that yourself then I take it?

I have some discouraging news on this one. Normally, an ECU should be re-coded for a type of tranny you want, but from my experience ECU ignores the tranny indicator change request and stays locked in the type of tranny the ECU was made for.

There is a workaround though for this but depending on what ECU (immo or not) it is, it might require taking it out and making a jumper for boot mode, you'd also need galletto flasher as it can flash in boot mode. Immobilizer ECUs don't allow flashing when not authenticated with cluster so for bench flashing you need boot mode, in car flashing with paired ecu-cluster would probably work with nefmoto flasher.

Last night I was playing with 4z7 907 551 M ECU (allroad model for auto tranny) and it was not possible to change coding from Tip to 6 speed in Vag-Com...

I flashed with S4 M box file and the tiptronic coding remained and I was still not able to change it... I don't know what practical implications of this are but I wasn't feeling warm and fuzzy about it.

The workaround I found was to flash it with allroad 4z7 907 551 (no letter) ECU for 6 speed, then the ECU allowed re-coding to 6 speed. I then flashed it with S4 M box again and the coding was now for manual car...

Next step will be to take this ECU with S4 M-box and install in my allroad to see if immobilizer throws a fit, but seeing how my maestro S4 tune they flash to all APB engines works just fine, I should be ok.

Not personally, but this is standard procedure for the 6 speed swap guys.

Got an ECU from a 2001 tip A6 on the way, so I'll let you all know my experiences  in a little.

It should work just fine. Yesterday I played a bit with a tip Allroad ECU which was throwing a code for missng TCU message sop obviously it was expecting TCU to communicate with it.

I then flashed it with S4 M-box file with galletto in boot mode (read above why, A6/Allroad ECU won't allow Nefmoto flasher to flash due to immo lockout, only boot mode can defeat that) and the message was gone.

I already paid for checksum plugin ($15) to the MTX guys so as soon as I get it, I will make some crude changes to TOny's stage 3 Mbox file (for my maf and injector) and will be trying the ECU in my allroad.

Should be fun!

I haven't reasearched yet (it will take 2 seconds to find out) if the '01 A6's have immo, but I'm hoping not because I don't have galletto and boot mode capabilities.  If it doesn't work, I'm sure I can make it though, just like you're saying. 

I'm excited to see how those MAF tables and injector constants work out!

The A6 EC I am playing with was from 2001 and have immo. AFAIK from late 1999 all A6s had immobilizer of sorts.

Ballls.

But galletto and cable is pretty cheap off ebay. The only tricky part is soldering leads for boot mode flash... They also come with that female obd2 to audi k-line (old style) dongle which you can sacrifice to make either an extension or harness for bench flashing.

More to report on using A6 ECU in other cars.

I am currently running a true frankenstein in my 6 speed Allroad. It is an A6 tip ECU (year 2002) with S4 M-Box file flashed to it.

Most importantly, the immobilizer gets completely nuked when you reflash with non-immo bin file and my car doesn't protest at all running S4 M-Box.

If my allroad with immo circuitry can run hardware box with formerly different immo code then it is rather certain that an S4 would be fine with A6 ECU (up to ME 7.1.1 model which I believe was 2003 for A6).

^^
Agreed.
Great news!  Seems i wasted $25 on the vag-tacho.

Not really. You can at least clock your mileage back to keep the car "young". :)

If I'm reading this right, there should be some s4 files that work on a 6 spd A6? My brother and I both have A6s, and my dad has an Allroad (all 6 spd), only the Allroad has immo. I've been looking for a def file for my A6, but if I could use an S4 bin instead, there's def files all over for them.

Our A6s our both 4B0907551K and the Allroad is a 4Z7907551. Does anybody know what works for those? I previously tried flashing a a-box s4 file to my car, got no start, but VCDS communicated fine with the ECU after flashing it. Car was fine after flashing original file back.

julex, can you flash your Allroad ECU in the car now that the immo is off?

Flash M-box S4 ecu bin file and it will work on both A6 and allroad. It will kill Immo on allroad so no prob there. SO LONG all cars run APB engine, not 2002 and + BEL engine.

I just tuned my AR (same ECU id as the one you listed) and  just clocked 430wph on w/m so it is top notch :) on S4 M-box file.

Enjoy.

I had the wrong # for the Allroad, I'll have to double check it, but I know it's a BEL engine, in an 04 Allroad. I have a bin file for an 03 A6 with a BEL engine, which has a rear O2 delete on it at least (No pre-cats, no CEL). I'm guessing since the 03 A6 has immo, the Allroad won't like the immo ID in the A6 file. Are there any other solutions for a BEL engine? I don't think they were ever put in S4s.

Thanks for the help, I can't wait to get to work (where I left my VCDS cable) and try it out tomorrow!

julex, I'm reading about Jude's M-box file, and he mentions needing to copy MAF maps over if using a Bosch MAF. He also says it works on A6s and Allroads. I'm fairly certain my A6 has a Bosch on it, ETKA says so, too late to run outside now. Do I need to change maps? Should I just view this as an opportunity to upgrade to a Hitachi MAF since I plan on keeping my car for the duration?

Congrats man!

No need to change MAFs and copying maps within TunerPro is exactly a 5 minute activity. You need to copy MLHFM and and MLOFS from any bosch tune file and you should be all set. Hitachi MAF doesn't use (it is zero) MLOFS which is offset value. Bosch uses  200kg/h offset.

Thanks! Getting my ducks lined up before I take engine apart. I want to make sure fueling is working flawlessly on upgraded components before jumping into unknown :)

Thanks julex! I was already half-way through my maf conversion when i read your last post. All works though. Im still trying to figure out mtx plugin. I emailed them, havent heard back, where the heck do I pay for it?

I followed these instructions and got the license file within 24h. Send your hardware ID code form demo plugin along with payment/reply.

"
Hi,

I received your request for a Bosch VAG ME7 license. The Personal Non-Commercial License is Euro 10,00. Payments can be made through paypal towards this email: vendite@mtx-electronics.com

Also if you want I can test your stock BIN file before you buy so you are sure that it is 100% compatible because after I give you the license file there will be no refunds.

Regards,
Salvatore Faro"

I've been waiting for two days, because I neglected to check my "spam" folder.

I'm an idiot.

We are all idiots pretending we are not.  ;D

So moral of the story is that it is possible to flash an S4 file to an A6 box if the A6 box is still in the car with it's corresponding immobilizer. Otherwise a bench flash in boot mode would be necessary to gain ecu access without the right immobilizer present. Boot mode bench flash also goes from TIP to 6 speed changes as the TCU  field does not update.

Is that correct? or is it possible to plug an A6 box into my S4 and then flash?

Also can someone please tell me which maps are related to injector sizing, maf, and other recommended changes to Tonys file? I'd like to change Tony's base file for EV-14s and a 90mm MAF. I am having trouble wrapping my head around which maps change what and how they are all inter related. Noob to tuning in general not just Motronic   :D

Take a look here for starters...

http://s4wiki.com/wiki/Tuning

Correct, A6 plugged into S4 will not allow flashing. If you get an used A6 ECU without matching cluster/key you have to boot mode it.


KRKTE for scaling of injector size.
TVUB for scaling of voltage lag, ev14 have different lag values which you can find in one of the threads floating around here.
MLHFM for scaling of MAF size (this one you want to multiply by cross area difference, you know the PI*R^2 thing not the difference in just diameter)

The three maps above need to be changed when injectors/maf size changes.

Cheers.

Awesome. Thank you that is a start! I basically need a good enough tune to be able to drive it home from the shop with out running lean :)

The way you do it is you come up with the values that should work, flash the car and hope it starts. If it doesn't you'll either smell raw fuel in which case you gave it far too much fuel in KRKTE or it will misfire/bug badly when too lean.

Anyway, if it starts, let it run and access block 001 and 032 in VAG-COM. 001 will show instant O2 corrections from O2 sensors, positive values means your maps are too lean for the car and car is adding fuel, negative the other way around.

Over 25 either way means your fueling is way off and compensation can't correct for that. At this point you probably want to shut the car and re-do KRKTE and alter it by at least 10% whichever way it needs to go.

Repeat, once you get instant corrections in check, let the car warm up and let it idle for like 10 minutes. Eventually block 032 will start changing. Block 032 is your long term corrections for idle (cell1 and 3) and part throttle (cell 2 and 4) for each bank respectively. Once the values stabilize, you want to eventually change the tune again to have blocks 032 as close as possible to 0 in all cells.

Cheers.

Thanks julex - excellent summary of sorting the fueling - will need to go through this myself soon...

Update:

My franken allroad (S4 Mbox file on A6 Auto tranny ECU inside of 6 speed Allroad) just passed emissions in CT in flying colors.

M-box doesn't have SAI by default and this was disabled in the tune, readiness was showing "Not supported" - green - they don't care.

I don't know what CT rules are but maybe its like NJ and you are allowed to have one unsupported/not ready/failed.

they allow one failed but it is a non-issue anyway since it lists as "not supported" so they don't expect readiness for it.

It is all groovy.

So if you load a 6 speed flash into a tip car, what controls the transmission operations?

FYI I have recently put at A6 automatic ECU (L box 4B0 ecu)  in a 6speed S4 (originaly M ecu) and reflashed it in the S4 to stock H ECU file I had and it worked and allowed recoding and eliminated the immo.  Had a customer with a bad ECU and I could not get the correct 8D0 ECU quickly so I tried some experiments with what I could get my hands on.  This L auto ECU was the only one I could find with correct plug to fit S4 harness.  Suffix leters on 4B0 ECU is different.