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Title: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: NOTORIOUS VR on May 14, 2011, 06:52:50 AM Keeping with the other threads in this new section.. here is the rundown on my mods at a quick glance.
Current mods: Stock 2.7T w/ TiAL 605 turbo kit Self-made 85mm MAF using OE Hitachi sensor 1000cc ID Injectors Stock 4 BAR FPR Bosch Motorsport "044" Fuel pump w/ check valve Ebay dual in/out FMIC w/ custom 2.5" piping VAST W/M still using dual #3 nozzles (K03 setup) SSAC 3" > 2.5" catless DP, mated to single 3" Milltek turbo back (two mufflers) Future Mods: HPX sensor in 85mm housing 3 BAR FPR ER SMIC w/ carbon shrouds Dual 3" Catless DP to either single 3.5" or True dual 3" turbo back Larger W/M nozzles + AEM failsafe or new Aquamist HFS-3 kit __________________________________________________________________________ I figure I'll keep my info relevent to my car/605's in here only... that way I can share info with you guys and get help/feedback without cluttering up the site. Anyway, last night I got the MAF on and the injectors in. Basic Fueling Specs... Inj: ID1000 MAF: 85mm File: Tony's Stage 3 M-Box for now I started with some KRKTE & TVUB #'s from Juliex yesterday, and while the TVUB numbers are probably ok, the car was idling very, very lean with a KRKTE of .05, so with no wideband installed yet (yeah I know....) I decided to up the KRKTE until I felt the motor was responsive enough (seemed to be around 0.06 already), I then noticed that the ECU was still adding fuel so I bumped it to 0.07. Now the car seemed to be somewhat happy, idle was still hunting and VAC on my boost gauge was less then normal (16-18) but I'm unsure if this is due to the slight hunting and possibly increased TQ req. @ idle in Tony's file. But the motor was responding nicely to the accelerator so I could tell the fueling was at least ok. Anyway, I ended up extending the decimal point for the KRKTE value to 3, and settled on a value of I think .075 for now... A little on the right side, but with no changes at all to Tony's file other then TVUB and KRKTE it was time to go home (1am). But before that I took it for a few test drives to make sure I would get home in one piece and of course for at least one 2nd gear log :) (http://i55.tinypic.com/64l460.jpg) (http://i52.tinypic.com/142u70w.jpg) (http://i55.tinypic.com/afhmja.jpg) (http://i51.tinypic.com/nch4k8.jpg) (http://i55.tinypic.com/25a2r0w.jpg) (http://i51.tinypic.com/23ti1jq.jpg) (http://i54.tinypic.com/drdqc6.jpg) (http://i54.tinypic.com/8z4apd.jpg) (http://i52.tinypic.com/2pt86xz.jpg) Either way, today's task is to get the idle and part throttle right with a closer to realistic KRKTE value. As it seems around .5 is more or less correct just at idle it's far too lean. But with higher valves idle is fine, but cruise and boost is WAYYYYY too rich. Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: julex on May 14, 2011, 08:47:20 AM Looks good!
One major comment. The TVUB I am using is for Bosch ev14 1000cc, yours are ID 1000cc, you will have completely different TVUBs! Appropriate TVUB table is usually supplied with their injectors and if you don't have it, it is on their website. I suspect that the TVUB you have in your tune right now is just too small for what your injectors really should use and you had to add tons of % to KRKTE which then reared its ugly head in WOT where you were dumping far too much fuel. Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: NOTORIOUS VR on May 14, 2011, 08:52:06 AM Looks good! One major comment. The TVUB I am using is for Bosch ev14 1000cc, yours are ID 1000cc, you will have completely different TVUBs! Appropriate TVUB table is usually supplied with their injectors and if you don't have it, it is on their website. I suspect that the TVUB you have in your tune right now is just too small for what your injectors really should use and you had to add tons of % to KRKTE which then reared its ugly head in WOT where you were dumping far too much fuel. Interesting... Can I just plug these in as is then? (http://www.injectordynamics.com/ID1000SumData.bmp) Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: julex on May 14, 2011, 02:49:15 PM Yup, the ones for 60psi should work ok, you might want to choose a value in the middle between 55 and 60psi since 4 bar is I think something like 58psi.
Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: NOTORIOUS VR on May 14, 2011, 07:34:04 PM Yup, the ones for 60psi should work ok, you might want to choose a value in the middle between 55 and 60psi since 4 bar is I think something like 58psi. Did that and it helped... but I'm still having a hard time with lean idle AFR's and what seems to be oscillating light/cruise AFR... And if course I can't seem to always get the boost AFR where I want to to be... so I gave up for the night. Made good power on the dyno (don't really want too much more right now, still on the stock FP)... (https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/_51mfYIRRh0Y/Tc8sMO_jICI/AAAAAAAAAbk/1Pv_vDSYJTo/s800/Tial_650_dyno_final.jpg) Need to get my wideband in and post up the shit ton of logs that I have from the dyno pulls... and then start tinkering. I still ended up with a KRKTE of .066 to help with the leaner idle/cruise situation. Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: silentbob on May 15, 2011, 01:38:39 AM What's your injection time in ms in the problem area?
Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: judeisnotobscure on May 15, 2011, 02:49:25 AM TVUB values for ID 1000 injectors based off info from the injector dynamic website.
voltage/ time msec 7.04/ 4.362 10.0672/ 2.030 12.03/ 1.656 14.08/ 1.324 17.8816/ 0.821 Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: NOTORIOUS VR on May 15, 2011, 09:24:35 PM ^^^ Thanks!
What's your injection time in ms in the problem area? These logs go with the dyno chart above... but it seems anywhere between 10-11ms this run. (http://i52.tinypic.com/2ugh0uv.jpg) (http://i53.tinypic.com/jhddoz.jpg) (http://i56.tinypic.com/s2bfgy.jpg) (http://i53.tinypic.com/e7ky8g.jpg) (http://i53.tinypic.com/wlw1lj.jpg) (http://i56.tinypic.com/2nkmb6a.jpg) (http://i55.tinypic.com/2cmswag.jpg) (http://i55.tinypic.com/20tm9dw.jpg) (http://i51.tinypic.com/mcviat.jpg) (http://i55.tinypic.com/103yeqe.jpg) And the Actual Log files if you prefer: http://schnell-engineering.com/misc/web/Typical-5-14-2011_8-02-00_PM.csv http://schnell-engineering.com/misc/web/Typical-5-14-2011_8-02-00_PM.elg Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: julex on May 16, 2011, 07:03:27 AM Part of the reason why I went with 3bar besides issues with fitting solid FP into a C5 platform (shorter fuel tank), was the fact that at idle an injector with so much flow will have serious issue opening/closing accurately and will lead to all sorts of issues.
If you look at ID site and locate the graphs for injection error you will notice that they have rather large linearity error at low pulse widths. The problem is that with 1000cc @ 4bar you are well into that area since our cars idle at around 1.4-1.5 with 4 bar and slightly more (but just enough to get our of trouble area especially that the curve moves the the left 3 bar) at 3bar. I think you might have to do the same thing I did which is go with 3bar albeit I have ev14 1000cc which no doubt have different characteristics altogether. Here are the graphs: 3bar: (http://www.injectordynamics.com/ID1000LD3B.bmp) 4bar: (http://www.injectordynamics.com/ID1000LD4B.bmp) As to osciallation at idle/cruise. With 1000ccs it is almost unavoidable, but it all depends how many 0.1s are we talking about. 0.1-0.2 below/over oscillation I would call normal, undershooting/overshooting by 0.5 while idling is no good and probably related to the linearity error. Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: NOTORIOUS VR on May 16, 2011, 07:59:25 AM I've always planned to go 3 BAR, I just haven't gotten on FPR yet... But thanks for the insight.
What I really need to take care of is the lean idle/cruise situation... it's really annoying.. and I need to lower my KRKTE again... I got a system too rich code for both banks yesterday... My train of thought on my last two passes on the dyno was to increase the KRKTE so that leanness @ idea/cruise wouldn't be as bad but clearly that doesn't work... as I tried to compensate with the component protect table and get two things... too rich anyway (see last dyno/logs) and system to rich error under boost. So I'm going back to two files ago (lower KRKTE) and then am going to massage KFKHFM for idle/cruise... what do you guys think about that approach? Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: nyet on May 16, 2011, 09:55:29 AM So I'm going back to two files ago (lower KRKTE) and then am going to massage KFKHFM for idle/cruise... what do you guys think about that approach? Yea. Use KRKTE to get open loop right (use a wideband!), then use KFKHFM to massage idle/cruise to get your trims zeroed. Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: NOTORIOUS VR on May 16, 2011, 11:10:54 AM Yea. Use KRKTE to get open loop right (use a wideband!), then use KFKHFM to massage idle/cruise to get your trims zeroed. Yup, gonna get my WBO2 in and start playing around some more... If I can get the AFR's dialed in somewhat and I can figure out why the hell my IAT's are so damn high then I'll probably head back to the dyno for finalization. Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: julex on May 16, 2011, 12:09:12 PM Yea. Use KRKTE to get open loop right (use a wideband!), then use KFKHFM to massage idle/cruise to get your trims zeroed. Yup, gonna get my WBO2 in and start playing around some more... If I can get the AFR's dialed in somewhat and I can figure out why the hell my IAT's are so damn high then I'll probably head back to the dyno for finalization. I hope that the MAF you made is not the culprit here. What does it mate to on filter side? Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: NOTORIOUS VR on May 16, 2011, 12:15:24 PM I hope that the MAF you made is not the culprit here. What does it mate to on filter side? The MAF being the culprit for the high IAT's? Because of the way it sits by the motor? Maybe... In all the logs here there was nothing at the end, no filter nothing... just looked like this: (https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/_51mfYIRRh0Y/Tc1klkE7T5I/AAAAAAAAAY8/eCeDtxFTbys/s800/2011-05-13%2013.03.32.jpg) I have now since yesterday a filter on though. Or were you thinking of something else causing the high IAT's related to my "custom" MAF? Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: julex on May 16, 2011, 12:39:50 PM Just thinking about geometry here. It seems to me that the sensor opening is pretty far from exact center of maf housing, am I right?
The further it is from the center, the less air speed it will register at the same air flow as in the exact center. You might have to compensate for that in your MAF table or by KRKTE. Having no filter is not only bad from the IATs perspective but also because the air has no time/travel distance to mix properly and get rid of vorticles the sharp edges of of maf housing generate. So many variables... but follow post in the other thread above/below where I posted about TVUB. I think the FPR/TVUB combination is the issue at hand. Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: nyet on May 16, 2011, 12:47:44 PM HOLY CRAP!
Bad news man, get a proper velocity stack before doing any tuning. Your MAF is reading garbage w/o anything there to straighten the flow and allow it to properly develop. You need at LEAST 1 foot of ... something before the MAF sensor. I can't stress this enough. FULL STOP. Do not do any further tuning until you get your intake sorted. Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: NOTORIOUS VR on May 16, 2011, 01:50:26 PM HOLY CRAP! Bad news man, get a proper velocity stack before doing any tuning. Your MAF is reading garbage w/o anything there to straighten the flow and allow it to properly develop. You need at LEAST 1 foot of ... something before the MAF sensor. I can't stress this enough. FULL STOP. Do not do any further tuning until you get your intake sorted. Really? I don't see how this is any different then the stock MAF connected to the top of the airbox... it doesn't have any velocity stack either... Anyway, here is my current setup. Still not ideal, but better then before obviously. BTW my 85mm MAF housing has the flow straightener in it: (https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/_51mfYIRRh0Y/TdF_qRtznMI/AAAAAAAAAcw/IILXFgu47MM/s800/2011-05-16%2015.47.36.jpg) (https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/_51mfYIRRh0Y/TVwZb5cOGkI/AAAAAAAAAHI/FQAP9iWD8wY/s800/2011-02-16%2013.31.12.jpg) Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: nyet on May 16, 2011, 02:31:26 PM Really? I don't see how this is any different then the stock MAF connected to the top of the airbox... it doesn't have any velocity stack either... If you're running an airbox you don't need a stack... the airbox takes care of letting the flow form. If you have a short intake to a cone filter you need a stack or at least some straight pipe. Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: NOTORIOUS VR on May 16, 2011, 07:02:03 PM If you're running an airbox you don't need a stack... the airbox takes care of letting the flow form. If you have a short intake to a cone filter you need a stack or at least some straight pipe. I see... well what I've got right now (above) seems to be working for me. I don't see anything strange going on in the logs in regards to the MAF values anyway. What should I be looking for if anything? Thanks again! Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: nyet on May 16, 2011, 07:08:52 PM I see... well what I've got right now (above) seems to be working for me. I don't see anything strange going on in the logs in regards to the MAF values anyway. What should I be looking for if anything? basically, you'll find that the less linear the MAF response is, the weirder the KFKHFM required to compensate (i.e. make your WB readings match your req AFR *and* have your trims, both short and long term, near zero). Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: NOTORIOUS VR on May 16, 2011, 07:42:02 PM basically, you'll find that the less linear the MAF response is, the weirder the KFKHFM required to compensate (i.e. make your WB readings match your req AFR *and* have your trims, both short and long term, near zero). Alright, well I'll def. keep an eye on things... I think with the silicon and elbow it's around 8-10 in total right now before the MAF. Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: NOTORIOUS VR on May 17, 2011, 06:10:53 AM Ugh, the drive to work today was pretty crappy... I seem to have more lean spots now during cruise. It's pretty annoying. And of course I forgot my WBO2 @ home again...
I also think I'm a little lean in under boost/open loop now... The worst part is the oscillating of the AFR under cruise... it mainly seems to run on the leaner side and then all of a sudden the ECU correct and the car picks up power and surges forward. Exhaust note changes and everything... Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: NOTORIOUS VR on May 17, 2011, 12:27:21 PM Just thinking about geometry here. It seems to me that the sensor opening is pretty far from exact center of maf housing, am I right? The further it is from the center, the less air speed it will register at the same air flow as in the exact center. You might have to compensate for that in your MAF table or by KRKTE. Sorry just noticed this post now... You are correct that it is not 100% in the center, I would think that since the MAF sensor is a fixed length going to a larger diameter that almost every MAF housing used on Stg 3+ cars would have a similar issue. I'm going to put my wideband in tonight and see what I can do... Because the car really drives like poo under partial load... Either that or I might just invest in the MAF/sensor that you have. If I do go that route, would you help me with interpolating the MAF values as you did with yours? Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: NOTORIOUS VR on May 17, 2011, 09:49:47 PM Well installed the wideband today, and obviously the wideband shows completely different stuff then the ECU's NBO2's... it's constantly richer then what the ECU thinks it is.
That said, I started to play around again with TVUB values... and I just can't wrap my head around it. Now I'm at a point where ultra light (20-23 in vac) load is stupid rich, idle is somewhat ok sometimes, lean when idle and voltage drops (ie. when the a/c and/or the EFK is on). Med load 5-15 in. vac is ok ish for the most part, sometimes too lean. And boost is again stupid rich now... Anyway where are some logs from tonight. Admittedly they're the best logs of the night... (http://i54.tinypic.com/2h6zgid.jpg) (http://i54.tinypic.com/33z8pww.jpg) (http://i56.tinypic.com/1ju42q.jpg) (http://i54.tinypic.com/2im86k1.jpg) (http://i54.tinypic.com/14kumw4.jpg) (http://i56.tinypic.com/9ftm2v.jpg) (http://i52.tinypic.com/2ly4w1f.jpg) Also the oscillation problem I've mentioned before doesn't (always?) seem to be related to AFR. My WB shows the AFR's to re relatively steady (0.1 AFR difference) while I can still feel the car pulling/not pulling sometimes during certain cruse ranges. It's really frustrating (to me) that it takes so long to make minor changes, especially since you cannot see what exactly is going on (not live). IMO that is the biggest draw back to trying to learn ME7 tuning like this (drive/log, tune, flash, drive again to log, analyze log, etc, etc...) I think I just need sleep :D Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: NOTORIOUS VR on May 18, 2011, 06:55:03 AM Question... KFKHFM adjustments...
Larger numbers are to correct for rich spots? or vice versa? So larger # = leaner or richer? Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: julex on May 18, 2011, 07:17:15 AM Question... KFKHFM adjustments... Larger numbers are to correct for rich spots? or vice versa? So larger # = leaner or richer? It is a multiplier to amount of fuel. So anything below 1.0 will decrease amount of fuel and vice verse. I looked at that AFR graph. Is that from wideband? You know that your target AFR for WOT is AT MOST 11.8 but for a sake of safety (getting a batch of crap fuel) and reducing knock overall, it would be nicer to be at 11.5-11.6 across the board. If you jump over that 11.8, you will no doubt get a lot of timing retard/fuel dump which will result in quite perceivable slow downs. To massage AFR at wot you can use either KFKHFM or KFLF (despite the name of table it controls fueling across the board) or FKKVS (modifier for injectors RPMs/Pulsewidth). Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: NOTORIOUS VR on May 18, 2011, 07:30:26 AM It is a multiplier to amount of fuel. So anything below 1.0 will decrease amount of fuel and vice verse. Thanks! Also here is a screen of a problem area under cruise... You can see the AFR is all over the place even through am at a constant throttle angle. (http://i56.tinypic.com/3010ym0.jpg) Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: julex on May 18, 2011, 08:52:36 AM You noob! ;D
That's how narrowband sensor operates lol. It can only measure exact 14.7 AFR/1.0 lambda -+ like 0.5AFR (maybe even less, it is very little usable range since the further you deviate from 14.7 the less resolution that sensor has) so it is constantly doing wild swings around and ECU tracks the pattern and is changing mixture so that oscillations are within expected range. I think it measures 0.5v or so around 14.7AFR with voltage swinging around a lot even with 0.1 - 0.2 change. It is completely normal. You should see your wideband sitting comfortably at target AFR of 14.7 while the O2s are on the roller coaster ride. Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: NOTORIOUS VR on May 18, 2011, 09:03:00 AM You noob! ;D That's how narrowband sensor operates lol. It can only measure exact 14.7 AFR/1.0 lambda -+ like 0.5AFR (maybe even less, it is very little usable range since the further you deviate from 14.7 the less resolution that sensor has) so it is constantly doing wild swings around and ECU tracks the pattern and is changing mixture so that oscillations are within expected range. I think it measures 0.5v or so around 14.7AFR with voltage swinging around a lot even with 0.1 - 0.2 change. It is completely normal. You should see your wideband sitting comfortably at target AFR of 14.7 while the O2s are on the roller coaster ride. :P I'm just trying everything to understand the oscillation issue... so when I see that, and then further down the log (scroll to the right if you haven't seen the rest of the log because of the forum layout) the AFR's are steady what am I supposed to think lol.. anyway... I have a feeling I need to start from scratch again. Maybe even from a base M-box and just copy the linearization tables for the MAF, etc over and just start from the very beginning... Calculate a KRKTE, start with some close TVUB's and see what happens. What do you think? Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: NOTORIOUS VR on May 18, 2011, 11:17:43 AM Checked my LTFT's after the drive to work this morning... partial is pegged @ -25%, even though @ partial the car is stupid lean for the most part (except at super light loads like @ ~20in vac).
LTFT's for idle is @ 0%. STFT's are pegged at -25% as well. Tried to get some logs this morning through ECUx, but lately it seems to be choosing what to log and what not to log... Not sure if this is due to the VM or not, either way I'm missing the entire 4k RPM section in two different logs (Logs fine from 3k to 3.9K, skips all of 4K and resumes at 5K RPM, time line is perfect), so they're useless. Everything the logs are telling me makes no sense to me. It shows the ECU is pulling fuel when it's already lean, the car jerks around like no ones business even when the AFR's are stable, anything below 4k rpm and from say -10 in vac to 5psi boost is stupid lean (15.0+ AFR). Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: Jason on May 18, 2011, 11:40:12 AM The oscillation is there for a reason - long story short, 3-way catalytic converters use two processes - reduction and oxidation. The catalyst converts NOx when the mixture is rich, and when lean it converts HC and CO.
The ECU intentionally oscillates the mixture at idle and cruise so one catalyst can convert all 3 gases. Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: Jason on May 18, 2011, 11:41:37 AM Also, why are you running ECUx in a VM?
Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: NOTORIOUS VR on May 18, 2011, 02:05:16 PM Also, why are you running ECUx in a VM? Easier as all my tuning stuff is in a VM Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: julex on May 18, 2011, 02:26:05 PM Also, why are you running ECUx in a VM? Easier as all my tuning stuff is in a VM Strange that it would disable itself at 4k repeatedly, I sometimes get no logs but it is not a back-to-back event. Are you sure your cable is ok? Let me tell what happened to me once, I bought a several foot extension for odb2 port with 90deg plug so that I don't kick it getting in/out of the car. It worked fine except every now and then I would lose connectivity when flashing/logging so I deemed it "Crap" and wasn't using it. But one day I decided to see what's up with it and continuity/short test on all leads showed perfect cable. So what was wrong with it? With a flashlight in hand I ducked under the dash and plugged the cable... only to realize that the 90 deg bend was just too close to plug itself and a corner of the plug was hitting kick panel and preventing the cable from going 100% in. Sure enough, the 12v lead was not contacting right from time to time. So I just shaved a bit off that corner and since then the cable is 100% reliable. I am just wondering if this might be a factor in your situation. Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: NOTORIOUS VR on May 18, 2011, 05:15:02 PM ^^^ Seems like restarting the VM (instead of always hybernating it) does the trick and it logs again.
On other interesting news, the jerking that I am feeling is something in the NefMoto Stg 3 base tune.... So before when I was saying the AFR's are solid and the car is still jerking means that it's obviously not fuel related (I'm pretty sure it's not timing related either). I switched to another M-box tune, plugged in some KRKTE and TVUB values and the car drives butter smooth again. So, that makes me feel much better about the ECU and myself lol.. Didn't have enough time to get the WOT fueling under control for the other file (super lean under boost (14.7 lol), but idle and cruise looks pretty good after 2-3 revisions of the TVUB values. Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: Jason on May 18, 2011, 06:47:42 PM My hybrid K04/K16 car did not like that tune until I restored the stock latency values and stock idle torque reserve. I also nudged KRKTE to .065 with the Siemens 60's @4bar. YMMV... something to try.
Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: julex on May 18, 2011, 07:12:09 PM If you think Tony's stage 3 tune is weird you should have seen that other tune I initially had from *cough* you know who (see very loud thread in reverse engineering section).
For some reason, the tuner threw factory M-box MAF correction table totally off by adding as much as over 20% maf correction in spots. Then they messed the injector correction table just as bad (stock is think 1.00 or 1.02 is all cells) and then to make tings right I think, they adjusted (again to the extreme) the table for main fueling in part load. There might have been a plan behind the madness since once you combine the three tables for a given load it yields right results but still, what a mess. Anyway, I tried Tony's Boost PID tables responsible for max/over the MAP values and PID and I overboosted bad to the amount of 27psi so I think he might have very inefficient setup, but in general I started appreciating tuner's job to get custom tunes dialed in. Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: NOTORIOUS VR on May 20, 2011, 02:26:44 PM Well did two more revisions on my new M-box file... 1st one was too much KRKTE, wayy too rich and also the boost limit was too low so I was getting throttle cut.
So I revised it again, lowered the KRKTE and voila the car drives amazing! AFR's look pretty good under full boost, but coming into boost it might be too lean in a few spots for my liking so I will start to massage the MAF correction table next. But for now the car drive like it's stock. Idle back to ~800 rpm, no surging/oscillation at all either... All in all, I'm very happy right now. I have no logs so after the long weekend I will try to get some to see how the car is reacting and where to make changes in the file. Once I get that settled in I might try out the LC/Flat shift code, order up some larger meth nozzles, install my 044 and start to tweak the timing advance and boost curve to my liking. Thanks to all for the great suggestions btw... needed to help me get my head on straight and back on track. I was really getting frustrated with the way the car was driving. Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: carlossus on May 20, 2011, 03:51:50 PM One thing I will say, it's really nice that you take the time to post back and update the thread. Even if it seems quiet, I'm following with interest.
Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: judeisnotobscure on May 20, 2011, 06:48:49 PM Thanks for sharing your work in this thread.
I've been checking daily. Looks like you're making great progress. Do you plan on trying an e85 tune? I hope to get my hands on a 605 car next month... I'll let you know how i make out. Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: Matt Danger on May 20, 2011, 08:05:07 PM My hybrid K04/K16 car did not like that tune until I restored the stock latency values and stock idle torque reserve. I also nudged KRKTE to .065 with the Siemens 60's @4bar. YMMV... something to try. I found similar positive results (smoother on/off throttle) by reseting these maps to stock M-box values. Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: NOTORIOUS VR on May 24, 2011, 10:52:52 AM Alright so I've got WOT fueling pretty much exactly where I want it now... and I'm super happy about that.
I've got req. load to be inline with actual load as well... But Idle AFR and Part throttle/cruise AFR's are really starting to piss me off. Can someone explain to me how this is supposed to work? From what I've gathered is this (simplified). Idle and part load lambda is always supposed to = 1. Fine. TVUB has the greatest impact @ Idle and some part load. The least impact on WOT fueling. KRKTE is the overall offset for fueling but is the exact opposite effects from TVUB. KFKHFM is for correcting the MAF scaling during low loads... possibly idle? What is the Axis for the MAF g/s? Is it directly what I see in VCDS? Or is there some conversion needed to use the MAF and STFT's values from VCDS logs? I've been told to try stock TVUB values... forget it, I just tried and the car run's super lean just at idle and hardly wants to rev (WB shows 18-19:1, hardly possible but still bottom line it's lean). I've now got stock TVUB values with a multiplication factor of 2.1 added... Thave gave me values around where I used to be with other tunes but slightly more all over... This is giving me a very rich idle as described above, but when around part load from say 12in hg. vac to 0 and into boost values that I would be comfortable with and the car seems to be smooth. Thing is, extreme light loads is very touch now because it's very rich. Even throttle transitions suck now and make the car jerk. I'm wondering if I should now start correcting with the FKKVS map for low pulse widths, to try and smooth things out for me seeing that almost everything else is where I want it to be. Thought's, suggestions? Thanks for the encouragement as well guys. Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: nyet on May 24, 2011, 11:13:01 AM What is the Axis for the MAF g/s? Is it directly what I see in VCDS? Yes. Quote Thing is, extreme light loads is very touch now because it's very rich. You mean your STFS are very negative, or they are *maxed* negative, so you are *actually* rich? Quote I'm wondering if I should now start correcting with the FKKVS map for low pulse widths, to try and smooth things out for me seeing that almost everything else is where I want it to be. Maybe. But all this really tells me is that I still think something is wrong with your MAF set up... in which case KFKHFM is there to compensate for badly non-linear MAF setups that the owner is too lazy to fix properly :) Either that or you have a boost leak. Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: NOTORIOUS VR on May 24, 2011, 11:47:03 AM Yes. Good to know, thanks. Quote You mean your STFS are very negative, or they are *maxed* negative, so you are *actually* rich? Correct. Quote Maybe. But all this really tells me is that I still think something is wrong with your MAF set up... in which case KFKHFM is there to compensate for badly non-linear MAF setups that the owner is too lazy to fix properly :) Either that or you have a boost leak. Boost leak? I guess it's possible. I will pressure test tonight. But I hear no leak, I make good power for the boost level I'm running, MAF curve looks good in the logs, etc, etc. non-linear MAF setup? Tony's file is supposed to be properly scaled, he claims it as such anyway and the curve does look good under power. But you're right there must be something there. As the other M-box file I tried (with underscaled MAF values) was running butter smooth. So maybe you are right and the MAF values in Tony's file aren't very good in the lower end. Any suggestions on getting it scaled properly? Is it really going to be a matter of driving and logging STFT's and MAF values, correcting them and rinse/repeat? If so that is going to suck. Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: NOTORIOUS VR on May 24, 2011, 12:05:45 PM I just compared the MLHFM between the two files.
They're both linear in my eyes.. just the scaling is different. But between that file (nefmoto) and the one that isn't giving me idle/part throttle issues the only difference (in the MAF table) seems to be the scaling. The one that is smooth can't be because of the underscaling, that just doesn't make sense. (http://i53.tinypic.com/2qvvy3b.jpg) Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: julex on May 24, 2011, 01:41:23 PM MAF is always l/h inside ME tables. VCDS/EcuC reads g.s. Conversion factor is 3.6, eg. 1g=3.7l/h
Having said that, these two maps for MAF are very far off, by 25%. Without graphing them I cannot tell if one is simply the first one multiplied by 125% or something else is going on there. I think you need to scratch the table and go back to basics. Take M-box maf table which is a good basic shape for Hitachi MAF (you're not running Bosch by any chance?) and use it to calculate theoretical MAF curve for your housing. You need to figure out what the multiplication/division factor is to transform stock MAF to your 90mm (right?). It isn't hard: Cross Section Area = Pi * (r^2) Calculate both for stock and your housing. Divide resulting number for your housing by stock housing number and you will get the multiplication factor. Multiply all cells in the MAF table by that number, there, you should have something you can work with. If this still doesn't work for you you probably have some serious issues with flow inside that MAF housing. Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: NOTORIOUS VR on May 24, 2011, 02:02:48 PM Well... you just made me think of something.
I'm using a Bosch MAF housing modified for the Hitachi sensor. In my mind I figured an 85mm MAF housing is an 85mm MAF housing... but I guess there is more to it then that. 2nd. If I have two programs, both for 85mm housings, both M-boxes, but one drives fine at part throttle and idle and the other doesn't (nefmoto) I tend to lean away from it being a hardware issue to be quite honest. And when I say the other file drives fine, I mean the car drives like stock pretty much. I just don't want to run an underscaled MAF and obviously a few other reasons to not use that file. Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: Matt Danger on May 24, 2011, 04:51:19 PM I'm using a Bosch MAF housing modified for the Hitachi sensor. In my mind I figured an 85mm MAF housing is an 85mm MAF housing... but I guess there is more to it then that. My Hitachi is molded into the RS4 Bosch housing very similar to the way you did yours without problems. Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: nyet on May 24, 2011, 04:58:47 PM Hm. Well if you don't have a boost leak, i'd drive around randomly at different load/rpm operating points and log STFTs (make sure your ltfts are stable! if not, your stft data might not be accurate!)
Then make a scatter plot and see if you can see any patterns. If you want, you can post the log here and I can try to post up some 3d gnuplot visualizations. I have a couple scripts I used for it. Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: NOTORIOUS VR on May 24, 2011, 08:35:41 PM ^^^ Thanks Nye, so on my last revision for today my LTFT's were stable and I logged the following STFT's & MAF/RPM readings via VCDS after getting off the highway and stopping for gas. It was a drive through the city trying to hit and hold different load points.
Now I noticed that VCDS would stop/freeze during logging and then resume so if you notice "blocks" of data and then nothing or the same values that would be it. I'm assuming my cheap china VCDS cable is to blame. BTW, With my current tweaks (some very minor ones I did blindly to the MAF compensation) and just by TVUB I've gotten the car to drive very smooth... it still has some issues here and there... but it's already much better. Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: Jason on May 24, 2011, 11:37:50 PM I have the freeze issue occasionally with even my newest, latest and greatest vag-com cable. I think it's ECUx to blame, lol.
Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: NOTORIOUS VR on May 25, 2011, 06:37:12 AM I have the freeze issue occasionally with even my newest, latest and greatest vag-com cable. I think it's ECUx to blame, lol. Yes quite possible :P but this time it was VCDS and not ECUx.... I tried ECUx after logging with VCDS and ECUx wouldn't connect at all... Then again this all could be because of the VM... I will try later on to see if I have these issues on a pure WinXP machine. No VM. Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: nyet on May 27, 2011, 02:23:26 PM Sorry man. I looked at your logs, and i can't see any patterns to your STFTs :(
In my case, it was pretty obvious, there were rich/lean spots that were obvious at several load/rpm points, but it was mostly deterministic. Yours are all over the place.. Maybe try swapping O2s and EGT sensors ... Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: judeisnotobscure on May 27, 2011, 05:23:18 PM I was just looking at some logs from a stage 2 s4 that had very similar o2 readings to yours on two different files, giac and custom.
ended up being a vaccum leak on the turbo inlet pipes... silicone around the joints seemed to fix the issue. Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: NOTORIOUS VR on May 28, 2011, 12:01:59 PM Sorry man. I looked at your logs, and i can't see any patterns to your STFTs :( In my case, it was pretty obvious, there were rich/lean spots that were obvious at several load/rpm points, but it was mostly deterministic. Yours are all over the place.. Maybe try swapping O2s and EGT sensors ... I know they're all over the place.. that's what worries me... Anyway, O2 sensors and EGT's were never faulty before the swap (heck even when I was driving the Tial setup on my Stg 2+ tune and stock fueling) and I don't believe in them being bad either if you look at my ECUx logs. They're not triggered at any point in time and the O2's also read nicely. So saying to spend ~$400 on EGT's and another $~150 on O2 sensors on a whim is not going to happen in the slightest. I have not however yet done a pressure test, so that is on my list of to-do's this weekend sometime, along with swapping to the other M-Box tune that makes the car seem to drive butter smooth and take some STFT/MAP logs then to compare with this current tune. I'm still a believer that it is a software/tune issue rather then a hardware issue. A leak that would cause such random lean/rich area's under VAC seems odd to me, since a) the inlets are one piece and there are no leaks points visible to me. B) If there was a boost leak I would think making the HP I did @ the boost level I am at would prove to be difficult and also cause my AFR's to be a little wacky for the loss of metered air, no? It just doesn't add up to me. Thanks for looking over the logs guys... I will update as soon as I start to tinker again. Cheers! Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: NOTORIOUS VR on June 07, 2011, 08:00:08 AM Well, after some TLC yesterday evening:
http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php/421890-NOTORIOUS-VR-s-Stock-2.7T-TiAL-S605-Build?p=6577854#post6577854 The car seems to run much better... I decided it was time for a new revision as well.. TVUB +0.005 from 7 to 12V KRKTE is now at 0.048 (from 0.051) slightly increased the MAF compensation table under higher loads from 3k on up to redline (I think to 0.99 tapering to 0.96). Slightly increased component protection (load fueling) from 5500 on up to prevent it from going too lean by redline. Car seems to run quite nice now. Nye, not sure if you can have a look at the quick STFT log from this morning. IT's not very long and still might have weird gaps from the logging randomly stopping (BTW I think I figured out what is causing that! It's the G sensor in the Thinkpad that turns off the HDD! I will verify later today after work by turning it off) I've also attached a VCDS log of the LTFT's and STFT's (which from what I can see look pretty good). Thought's and suggestions when you guys have them would be great! Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: NOTORIOUS VR on June 08, 2011, 05:06:39 PM Another small update... revised the MAF compensation table a little bit, reduced KRKTE to 0.046 (was still too rich @ .048), slightly increased TVUB across the board (by 0.035). Also zero'ed out DSLOFS this time around, but I'm still just running 0% DC on the N75.
Car is driving nice and pulls well and AFR's are starting to look really nice to me, maybe just a touch too right from 10 PSI and higher but nothing to worry about (~0.87)... The only issue I seem to be having is at 21 in Hg and less throttle it goes stupid rich (0.78-0.85 lambda) anywhere from 1k to as far as 5k rpm... Would this be something to correct in the MAF tables as well? I haven't checked the FT's yet with this revision, and no 3rd gear logs either because of the stupid hot weather (107 w/ humidity) today. Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: NOTORIOUS VR on June 09, 2011, 05:19:11 AM So this is where my LTFT's are currently sitting (screenshot from carputer)...
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-gUfPNCiWKgI/TfC5a4DUf3I/AAAAAAAAAng/8ZphbvDP0Qo/s800/2011-06-09%25252007.52.44.jpg) If it weren't for 2 things I would be happy with the car right now. 1. Very light load (21 in HG and less) it's stupid rich. 2. between 2k and say 3.8k the car stumbles sometimes. 2b. I think the car is injecting too much fuel during starting now, gonna pull back from sold/hot start enrichment see if it gets better. Today it's supposed to thunder and rain, but tomorrow it's supposed to be nice and not too hot so I'll see if I can get some nice complete ECUx logs then. Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: nyet on June 09, 2011, 10:20:16 AM Also zero'ed out DSLOFS this time around, but I'm still just running 0% DC on the N75. If you are planning to run boost past the MAP limit, you may want to keep DLSOFS stock and use a locked WGDC file. Also, i might pull a bit more fuel from KRKTE.. Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: NOTORIOUS VR on June 09, 2011, 11:18:38 AM If you are planning to run boost past the MAP limit, you may want to keep DLSOFS stock and use a locked WGDC file. Also, i might pull a bit more fuel from KRKTE.. Ahh I understand, to give a little extra resolution with PID control you zero out the sensor? I'll put that back then since I see 24psi on the WG alone. Yes you're right I'm going to pull a little more from KRKTE still as well. Any ideas on the super light cruise being very rich? Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: julex on June 09, 2011, 03:33:23 PM super light cruise should be at lambda 1. Are you telling us your car can't stick to L=1, afr=14.7 as per KFLBTS_0_A table?
If that's the case, log block 001 when cruising, if you see some crazy corrections there then your MAF calibration is very off or the injector stuff still very much off. Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: nyet on June 09, 2011, 07:39:50 PM If you are planning to run boost past the MAP limit, you may want to keep DLSOFS stock and use a locked WGDC file. No, i mean if you are running past the end of the MAP, you aren't using the PID anyway, and you want to keep the PID circuit riding at the edge of the locked WGDC limit. You do this by insuring the max MAP reading is always below the max req boost. Quote Any ideas on the super light cruise being very rich? I'm hoping once you pulll a bit of fuel, you'll be within the range of the max stfts. Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: NOTORIOUS VR on June 09, 2011, 08:15:36 PM ^^^ I figured out what is causing the rich super light throttle, Min injector on time is too high, they don't go under 1.70ms... so obviously the injectors are on, but the throttle is only open so much causing the rich AFR's...
Anyway pulled some logs tonight... Car in general drives like ass... I think I'm going to give up on the NefMoto base tune from here on out... Doesn't matter what I do, it's not getting better no matter how nice I get the AFR's... it's always doing something strange. I can't quite pin point it, but I really do have a feeling that it's something in that base file. Ignore the red line/run, it was incomplete. (http://i55.tinypic.com/1zo9gya.jpg) (http://i55.tinypic.com/ju8gtt.jpg) (http://i51.tinypic.com/30vy9np.jpg) (http://i55.tinypic.com/116l5c4.jpg) (http://i53.tinypic.com/11rrnsi.jpg) (http://i56.tinypic.com/122j6hj.jpg) (http://i56.tinypic.com/261f2u0.jpg) Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: nyet on June 09, 2011, 08:22:19 PM That 3rd gear wot log looks fine to me, so i'm assuming you're not happy with part throttle?
Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: NOTORIOUS VR on June 09, 2011, 08:33:37 PM That 3rd gear wot log looks fine to me, so i'm assuming you're not happy with part throttle? Even WOT feels funny sometimes... Sometimes the car has a slight "wavey" WOT pull, but other times it's smooth and pulls hard... But yes it's mainly cruise, although up to today the car drives pretty damn good, it's not driving as it should be. So either I'm way off on my settings or something is up with the file somewhere. And I must say, the more things I put back to stock M-box the better the car starts to drive. Today I put the majority of the stock M-box timing table in the lower load sections (60 and less)... Anyway, I've also attached a .xls with a more or less complete (~2100 to 6500 rpm) pull... maybe someone will be able to spot something. Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: NOTORIOUS VR on June 10, 2011, 05:10:25 AM Well the drive to work this morning was pretty drama free, and the car pulled nice pretty much everywhere... It's a little on the lean side IMO for cruise in certain places still which might cause some of the strangeness I feel when the motor is a little more heat soaked.
I'll try a few more revisions... I also think I need to raise the req boost down low as sometimes at say 1/2 or less throttle in a high gear on the highway between 10-15 psi I get throttle cut. Also going to revise the timing table a bit to see if I can tune out the CF's and that might get rid of the wavyness I felt yesterday sometimes (looking at the logs 7-9 CF sometimes is just too high for my tastes). Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: julex on June 10, 2011, 05:45:49 AM If by requested boost you mean engien load, go for it. I have it very high in all RPMs that the turbo has a chance to spool.
7-9 pull is way too high. When I tune my car, I aim for 4.5-6 is worse case scenario and this won't cause much of boost intervention which is probably what plagues your car. Once you step into 9s, the boost/timing intervention becomes pretty noticeable which is probably what you described as "waviness". Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: NOTORIOUS VR on June 10, 2011, 07:27:29 AM If by requested boost you mean engien load, go for it. I have it very high in all RPMs that the turbo has a chance to spool. Exactly what I'm thinking.. Quote 7-9 pull is way too high. When I tune my car, I aim for 4.5-6 is worse case scenario and this won't cause much of boost intervention which is probably what plagues your car. Once you step into 9s, the boost/timing intervention becomes pretty noticeable which is probably what you described as "waviness". The more and more I think about it.. and the more logs I see, my KV's are not anywhere near crazy... but the CF's are high. I'm going to go with the reasoning that other tuners dumb down the CF's. and I'm willing to bet that OEM knock regulation is pretty conservative as well... I'm going to smooth out my timing tables, and make some small changes to KRFKLN maybe? Or is there another map I should be looking at to reduce the amount of CF's pulled per KV? Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: carlossus on June 10, 2011, 08:07:26 AM I'm going to smooth out my timing tables, and make some small changes to KRFKLN maybe? Or is there another map I should be looking at to reduce the amount of CF's pulled per KV? I have KFKEx raised a fraction on all cylinders. Not sure if yours is still stock calibration? Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: NOTORIOUS VR on June 10, 2011, 08:08:27 AM I have KFKEx raised a fraction on all cylinders. Not sure if yours is still stock calibration? Yes it's completely stock in regards to knock correction Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: carlossus on June 10, 2011, 08:23:59 AM Mine are raised 12% and combined with knocking off just a few degrees around the worst CF's - it lost perceptible hesitation and CF's are < 5/6.
Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: NOTORIOUS VR on June 10, 2011, 08:39:17 AM Mine are raised 12% and combined with knocking off just a few degrees around the worst CF's - it lost perceptible hesitation and CF's are < 5/6. Makes complete sense to me... I'm going to set some time aside this weekend... I really want to revamp a few things in the tune. Thanks for the info! :) Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: NOTORIOUS VR on June 12, 2011, 08:45:44 AM Well finally got it figured out! KFMIRL was the culprit on making the car jumpy... After trying to raise it to avoid the TC in the lower end of the throttle the car got progressively worse in the same way.
I got fed up (after making the same mistake twice, since I had changed more then one map I didn't know what caused the car to get worse) and over wrote the entire KFMIRL map with the one from a stock M-box. I then raised the max and smoothed it upwards from 70%. The car drives amazing now. The only thing I have still yet to figure out is the rich condition at very light throttle/loads (just before overrun around 21-23 in hg). I thought that it might be the minimum inj on time since in VCDS it doesn't go lower then 1.70ms but looking at the program the min on time is set to 0.50. So, there is obviously something else causing it which I have ye to find. Here are some logs with the car running nicely. I am definitely out of fuel pump though (still stock pump) as I attempted to raise the boost (and onset of boost) and was running lean. I would say that while impressive, the approx max for the stock pump is around 440awhp running @ 4bar. Thanks to all for helping me so far... it kept me going! (http://i51.tinypic.com/2cse7bk.jpg) (http://i56.tinypic.com/2h2im2g.jpg) (http://i51.tinypic.com/2a6o70p.jpg) (http://i51.tinypic.com/2a8j8ee.jpg) (http://i56.tinypic.com/a2gdvt.jpg) Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: NOTORIOUS VR on June 17, 2011, 07:08:51 AM Ok after getting the pump in last night I decided to turn up the WGDC... the problem I'm having is fueling is all over the place for some reason...
It seems to dip down and then back up (as you can see in the logs)... it makes no sense what so ever.. anyone have any ideas? I'd really like to be able to run a more aggressive tune before hitting the track today... This is one of my last logs, they all follow a similar patter... but in the last two revisions I believe I was saturating the MAF (right around 380 it flatlined) from 5000rpm and on, so I decided to lower the boost to avoid issues. That's why the boost ramps up hard and then goes back down slightly in this file. (http://i52.tinypic.com/vzkjs2.jpg) (http://i55.tinypic.com/w7mz38.jpg) (http://i55.tinypic.com/2n686u0.jpg) (http://i52.tinypic.com/2elyws4.jpg) (http://i53.tinypic.com/316w6li.jpg) (http://i56.tinypic.com/15f4olu.jpg) Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: NOTORIOUS VR on June 17, 2011, 09:01:35 AM after some talking with another fellow self tuner... would this be something to correct in the MAF compensation tables?
Also, what/how is the load related to the MAF tables... Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: nyet on June 17, 2011, 09:06:23 AM http://s4wiki.com/wiki/Load
ECUxPlot has a load calculator in it that you can compare with your measured load. Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: NOTORIOUS VR on June 17, 2011, 10:00:54 AM how do i use it? lol...
sorry but I see a million things to choose for an axis etc.. Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: nyet on June 17, 2011, 05:19:20 PM RPM for X, Calc Load for Y1
Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: NOTORIOUS VR on July 08, 2011, 05:37:45 AM Question...
I believe I'm getting TC whenever I push the accelerator from 10-60%.... The car starts to pull and then cuts and then resumes... It never does it @ 100% Any ideas of what maps to look at or what I should be looking for in the logs? I don't have any recent logs (car drives quite well except for a few small things like this) it's always really out out during the day and to be honest I'm just loving the car right now so changing the program hasn't been much of a priority for me lately. But I would like to get the TC, light cruise AFR and warm start issues resolved to really make this tune solid. Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: nyet on July 08, 2011, 10:35:17 AM Dont guess, log.
Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: nyet on July 08, 2011, 10:49:59 AM The top 3 usual suspects
1) boost deviation 2) ASR 3) it's not TC and its actually misfires Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: NOTORIOUS VR on July 08, 2011, 11:00:40 AM Dont guess, log. I know, I will... :) Was just putting it out there :P Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: NOTORIOUS VR on July 13, 2011, 05:32:36 AM So yesterday I've made 3 more revisions...
1st. Added Anti-Lag & NLS and reduced TVUB as an experiment. Notes... Didn't notice too much of a difference, although it did tend to run a little leaner down low (especially where I played with the MAF correction table). As for ALS and NLS... WOW, that is amazing... works like a charm especially NLS I love shifting like that, and it just goes into gear like butter. 2nd rev. Set MAF correction table back to 1.0 for the most parts. Lowered TVUB even more. low load and idle AFR's still good no oddities, but still rich @ ultra light load. Tried a launch with ALS, bogged a bit. Then I turned off the car, and it wouldn't start after that. Attempted to try to connect with NefMoto and VCDS, nada... Checked fuses, everything is ok. I started to assume that for whatever reason the checksum was bad in the ECU (even though the MTX plug in said it was corrected). Luckily I had my Galletto cable with me, and I was able to bring it back to life with a Boot-Mode flash. 3rd rev. Adj. ALS limit higher, and reduced TVUB even more. This time checked the flash checksum with WinOLS (It found they were ok, but I resaved it anyway). This flash seems to be ok. Light cruise still very rich (doesn't seem to be getting better at all by decreasing TVUB). That's where I'm at right now. I'm hoping that the weather cools down today a bit and maybe later tonight I will get a log or two. Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: Snow Trooper on July 13, 2011, 10:10:28 AM we are about the same spot in our tunes, fine tuning i guess. I too have been running into issues where it says the checksums are solid when they arent.
what MS are you using on the NLS now and what rpm on the ALS? I have had it at 4500 rpm (feel its too agressive, yet i need revs not to bog my turbo) and 600ms on the NLS Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: NOTORIOUS VR on July 13, 2011, 11:32:49 AM we are about the same spot in our tunes, fine tuning i guess. I too have been running into issues where it says the checksums are solid when they arent. what MS are you using on the NLS now and what rpm on the ALS? I have had it at 4500 rpm (feel its too agressive, yet i need revs not to bog my turbo) and 600ms on the NLS I agree... for the most part my tune is very solid and honestly it's a tune that I can beat the eff out of and not worry about blowing it up. Settings are as follows... ALS: 4600 RPM NLS: 300 ms, 5500 activation, 90% TPS I'm pretty happy with these settings... might need to adjust for it when at the track tho. Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: nyet on July 13, 2011, 01:58:42 PM Light cruise still very rich (doesn't seem to be getting better at all by decreasing TVUB). Is idle still rich too? Have you played with FKKVS? Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: nyet on July 13, 2011, 02:00:14 PM Jared: any chance you can come down to LA once we get WMS's dyno up and running properly?
Might be fun spending a weekend dicking with a beater 2.7t on the dyno. Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: NOTORIOUS VR on July 13, 2011, 07:59:35 PM Logs from tonight..
Single gear (3rd): (http://i53.tinypic.com/242spjn.jpg) (http://i51.tinypic.com/99fndu.jpg) (http://i56.tinypic.com/mjq1kn.jpg) (http://i51.tinypic.com/ztcfua.jpg) (http://i52.tinypic.com/343lv9x.jpg) (http://i54.tinypic.com/j5zgwn.jpg) (http://i52.tinypic.com/68u7wg.jpg) Multigear (2nd-6th): (http://i53.tinypic.com/2uyo9iv.jpg) (http://i55.tinypic.com/33csz8x.jpg) (http://i54.tinypic.com/1r6zag.jpg) (http://i51.tinypic.com/aujmz8.jpg) (http://i53.tinypic.com/34dh307.jpg) (http://i56.tinypic.com/xmtqom.jpg) And attached to the post, the log file that should show the TC (somewhere around the beginning of the log). Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: NOTORIOUS VR on July 13, 2011, 08:01:36 PM Is idle still rich too? Have you played with FKKVS? Idle is fine, and no I haven't at all touched that map. Also, on the Multigear run it worries me a little that the O2 readings are not equal or is this normal? Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: nyet on July 13, 2011, 08:03:52 PM Can't trust narrowband O2s... output will vary by sensor (and aging, etc).
BUT i do worry about your EGTs ... (http://i53.tinypic.com/34dh307.jpg) are they coded out? still havent' checked out your throttle cut; i will do it time permitting. Also, might want to post this to QW and ill have jd take a peek.. Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: NOTORIOUS VR on July 13, 2011, 08:07:08 PM Can't trust narrowband O2s... output will vary by sensor (and aging, etc). BUT i do worry about your EGTs ... Yes is this the first time I've ever seen the EGT's go up.. BUT it was a full out WOT 2-6th! gear run, and that right after the full 3rd gear log above. So I dunno, maybe the EGT's were really getting up there. They don't seem to be sporadic though. Quote are they coded out? still havent' checked out your throttle cut; i will do it time permitting. Also, might want to post this to QW and ill have jd take a peek.. No they're not coded out. No worries, I will post them up there tomorrow. Thanks for the insight tho! Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: nyet on July 13, 2011, 08:11:54 PM I'm not seeing any TC in that log...
Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: nyet on July 13, 2011, 08:12:58 PM So I dunno, maybe the EGT's were really getting up there. They don't seem to be sporadic though. I'd add some fuel, or pull some boost sir :( If those really are your EGTs, i'd worry... Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: NOTORIOUS VR on July 14, 2011, 05:39:49 AM Nye, now that I'm looking at it.. I think the EGT issue is because of the lack of IGN advance in the top end. on my 3rd gear pull it seems like no more then around 17 deg by redline.
On the Multi gear pull even less, 5th gear l;ooks like under 15 deg for the most part, and 6th around 10. That, combined with the back to back pulls I think is why the EGT's skyrocketed like they did by the end (and is why I've never seen it on a single 3rd gear pull). Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: nyet on July 14, 2011, 09:06:16 AM Nye, now that I'm looking at it.. I think the EGT issue is because of the lack of IGN advance in the top end. on my 3rd gear pull it seems like no more then around 17 deg by redline. Adding timing isn't going to help EGTs come down; you're already riding the knock recognition anyway. Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: NOTORIOUS VR on July 14, 2011, 09:18:17 AM True I guess...
I'll add a little fuel :) Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: nyet on July 14, 2011, 09:27:17 AM Heh. I saw that JD wasn't concerned on QW. If he's not concerned, im not concerned :)
Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: NOTORIOUS VR on July 14, 2011, 10:31:32 AM Heh. I saw that JD wasn't concerned on QW. If he's not concerned, im not concerned :) Well I'm might add a touch anyway... and maybe one day I'll do another multigear pull lol Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: vwaudiguy on July 14, 2011, 11:02:53 PM Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: judeisnotobscure on July 20, 2011, 02:54:05 AM you still having part throttle issues?
Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: NOTORIOUS VR on July 20, 2011, 07:54:13 AM kinda... although I'm at this point sure it's load related... and not AFR's or timing...
it has to do with the req. load from KFMIRL or something to that effect... Not quite sure. Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: nyet on July 20, 2011, 07:57:07 AM Put KFMIRL back to stock.
Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: NOTORIOUS VR on July 20, 2011, 08:19:46 AM Put KFMIRL back to stock. Yesterday I kinda did... I copied the stock map from the M-box back... then only increased 100% to 240.66 (26% over stock) did the same for all the load sites until 60%, then for 50% load I cut that in half so my map was completely smooth. The issues got worse then me having larger numbers before. I will try a completely stock KFMIRL just to see how it reacts though. I noticed yesterday on the highway in a high gear if I would try to keep the car around where I assume I'm getting TC (between 10-15psi) I noticed that even without full out TC (or if TC has already happened/passed) the boost gauge was still jumping around 3-4 psi (which could be felt). Not sure if with the throttle body oscillating or not.. but I'm gonna have to log this behavior tonight so I can see what is exactly going on... as it's starting to drive me nuts. Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: NOTORIOUS VR on July 20, 2011, 07:59:16 PM So finally some good news!
We'll start with my light cruise issue... I started to compare my TVUB's to my data sheet from my injectors... for whatever reason they were MUCH larger then even what the sheet says.. I believe I used numbers from another member on here that offered to help me with that. In the end, I plugged in the numbers from the sheet and wow, most of my issues that I had left are going away.. Warm start is much better, light cruise is no where near as rich as it used to be (before low 11's, low 12's at most) and also I noticed then when my EFK would turn on my motor would do a slight bog... not you don't even notice it when it is turning on or off. So I'm going to continue to lower TVUB slowly until my warm start issue is completely gone and my light throttle cruise is almost 100% and then I'll be happy. As for the strange cruising feeling I was getting, as I suspected it was KFMIRL... I played around with a few revisions and the more you increase the req load the worse it gets... It even gets to the point where the turbos will start to surge (5+ psi @ 2k rpm). So I took nye's advice (and thinking back my own advice because I've been here before a few pages back lol) I put it back to M-box stock, and then only upped the 99.9% column by 26% to reach 240.6 and the 90% column by half that to make it smooth. Car drives totally different and smooth! I still do have an issue where it will on the highway in a high gear cut back boost if I build it slowly right around 15psi.... so that is something I will have to log to see if I fine out what it is. But things are looking up! Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: nyet on July 20, 2011, 09:18:12 PM So I'm going to continue to lower TVUB slowly until my warm start issue is completely gone and my light throttle cruise is almost 100% and then I'll be happy. Can't wait to see where your TVUBs end up! Quote upped the 99.9% column by 26% to reach 240.6 and the 90% column by half that to make it smooth. PERFECT! :) Glad you got it all rock solid. Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: NOTORIOUS VR on July 24, 2011, 05:32:57 PM So I wish I knew what was causing my rich condition when using NLS... I was getting on to the highway.. did a 2-3 shift normally, and then a 3-4 with NLS and again pretty much right after releasing the clutch, AFR's just took a dump and the car started to bogg... I let off of the pedal and got right back on and it was fine. :(
See here for my log a week or two ago when I noticed it... http://nefariousmotorsports.com/forum/index.php/topic,607.msg6588.html#msg6588 Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: NOTORIOUS VR on July 26, 2011, 05:27:46 AM So last night I decided I wanted to take another crack at the WGDC and increasing boost and the onset of boost.
Again I'm running into the issue where I"m going lean in the mid range. I'm not (for the most part) running any more boost then I was with just WG crack pressure (almost no WGDC in the file). I just seem to be ramping the boost sooner and for whatever reason the fueling is not keeping up now. Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: NOTORIOUS VR on July 26, 2011, 02:40:43 PM Well seems to be solved now... I duplicated the last 4 lines in KFLBTS to be the same (0.81 lambda), bumped KRKTE from 0.46 to 0.47 and all seems well...
I'm going to slowly add more WGDC by redline to continue to ramp boost and see how it goes from there. Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: NOTORIOUS VR on July 26, 2011, 08:18:20 PM Scratch that... going lean again in the top end... and the more boost I request the sooner and the leaner it gets even though I am not actually making more boost.
I'm about ready to throw ME7 and this tuning business into the garbage... Throttle cut's @ partial throttle from 10-15-psi (I know it's TC because I can hear my DV's open when it does it). Wacky AFR's... It's just really starting to get to me... I do have a feeling it is something MAF related... but I'm just getting so damn tired on how long this process is taking... flashing is long, logging is long... making adjustments not in real time just drags out the process even further... I'm glad I learned what I learned... but man was a pain in the ass this has been. I'll be going to the track tomorrow with my DD tune and will see how things go, but I doubt I will try to invest a whole bunch more time into ME7 tuning on my car. Thanks to all that have helped me with this so far... it's been a pleasure :) Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: nyet on July 26, 2011, 08:44:58 PM You really should be posting logs :)
Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: NOTORIOUS VR on July 27, 2011, 10:18:31 AM I know... I was having a bad day yesterday... and I really wanted to at least have some WGDC on for spool as it makes quite the difference before hitting the track today.
On top of that NLS is not working correctly... when I use it it dumps so much fuel after re-engaging the clutch that I have to let off and get back on the gas. Seems like I'm the only one having this issue as well. Just one thing after another and it's starting to get to me. Either way... I'm now thinking I should just leave the car as is... and make a decision... either go with the same MAF setup as Julex or go standalone and forget about ME7 all together on my car. Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: nyet on July 27, 2011, 10:23:29 AM I don't get it :(
IMO many of your problems can be solved pretty easily, but I haven't seen any logs that show your AFR issues... Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: NOTORIOUS VR on July 27, 2011, 10:29:03 AM I will take some logs sometime later this week... maybe tomorrow... today i'm going to the track with my DD tune which for the most parts seems to behave (from my previous logs)...
Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: s5fourdoor on July 27, 2011, 11:21:57 AM I'm glad you are doing this thread. Its inspired me to keep at my K04 car...
Don't lose hope, we'll help you figure it out! I do agree that it would be nice to have the ability to modify tables real-time. I'm surprised there isn't a running dynamic ME7 emulator available on some embedded chip... Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: nyet on July 27, 2011, 11:31:27 AM Agreed. Please don't give up!
Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: nyet on July 27, 2011, 11:33:30 AM I'm surprised there isn't a running dynamic ME7 emulator available on some embedded chip... I have a ghetto fab setup using this: http://www.promice.com/ but it isn't real time. you don't ahve to sit and wait for a flash though. However, it isn't stable enough to use on the road, only on a dyno. I'll try to get pics of it in action if I get it running properly. Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: sleeperavant on July 27, 2011, 12:07:21 PM Wacky AFR's... It's just really starting to get to me... I do have a feeling it is something MAF related... but I'm just getting so damn tired on how long this process is taking... flashing is long, logging is long... making adjustments not in real time just drags out the process even further... I'm glad I learned what I learned... but man was a pain in the ass this has been. I'll be going to the track tomorrow with my DD tune and will see how things go, but I doubt I will try to invest a whole bunch more time into ME7 tuning on my car. Thanks to all that have helped me with this so far... it's been a pleasure :) What is your KFKHFM table set to? Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: NOTORIOUS VR on July 27, 2011, 12:45:24 PM What is your KFKHFM table set to? Not all too much different from a stock M-box or NefMoto Stg 3 base... (http://i51.tinypic.com/jtb57a.jpg) Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: sleeperavant on July 27, 2011, 12:49:15 PM Shouldn't your values be higher in the high-load / high-rpm areas, such as greater than 1.0 if you want more fueling?
Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: NOTORIOUS VR on July 27, 2011, 01:32:25 PM Possibly... the point of that map is to tune out variations and keep lambda as close to 1.0 as possible.
Most tunes I've seen have a similar shape to mine. That said, 400g/sec is approx 1440kg/hr. Can anyone tell me if I'm looking at MLHFM and the numbers that are in the bins, is that supposed to be kg/hr? If so I think I'm maxing my MAF. Looking at my logs I'm very close to 400 g/sec. Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: sleeperavant on July 27, 2011, 01:45:06 PM Possibly... the point of that map is to tune out variations and keep lambda as close to 1.0 as possible. Most tunes I've seen have a similar shape to mine. That said, 400g/sec is approx 1440kg/hr. Can anyone tell me if I'm looking at MLHFM and the numbers that are in the bins, is that supposed to be kg/hr? If so I think I'm maxing my MAF. Looking at my logs I'm very close to 400 g/sec. From what I've read the values in KFKHFM are not lambda values but air mass values: The values in KFKHM in one of my files cluster around 1.000 so whether they are lambda values or correction factors to lambda, increasing them will increase lambda (leaner) and decreasing them will decrease lambda (richer). I thought they were air mass corrections, not lambda corrections, so it would be the opposite ... higher means adjust MAF reading up (adding fuel to a too lean area) and lower means adjust MAF reading down (remove fuel from a too rich area). Do I have it backwards?? Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: NOTORIOUS VR on July 28, 2011, 11:12:12 AM From what I've read the values in KFKHFM are not lambda values but air mass values: I never said they were lambda values :) They're not air mass values either.. they're a multiplier as far as I understand it to MLHFM... and it allows you to "tweak" the mass air values in certain RPM/Load ranges that might be effected by variations in the intake tract (turbulence from intake arms, MAF placement, short ram/open element filters, etc). 1.00 = no change to MAF value, 0.99 and lower is acting negatively on the MAF value and 1.01 and higher is acting positively on them. Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: sleeperavant on July 28, 2011, 12:41:15 PM Yeah, I'm still learning at this point, please bear with me ;D Thanks for the explanation.
Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: NOTORIOUS VR on July 28, 2011, 12:43:41 PM ^^^ Of course... I'm still learning too :)
I hope I didn't come off as rude, it wasn't my intention at all. Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: sleeperavant on July 28, 2011, 12:44:32 PM No worries, you didn't come off as rude at all ;)
Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: rayce on July 29, 2011, 05:32:04 AM Interesting read so far… I noted something nyet said about your flow meter. I’m an EE/Controls Engineer/ASE Master Automotive Technician but pretend to be an engineer now and have to perform orifice calculations quite often. There is an important part of flow that may clue you in to what I am about to suggest. The beta ratio for delta p (differential pressure) is part of the calculation we have to take in to account when designing orifice plates for projects. A beta ratio closer to 50% will give much higher delta p and accuracy at low flows but less efficiency at high flows. A beta ratio closer to 75% will give less accuracy at low flows but higher efficiency at high flows. Mass flow is much more accurate and much more efficient regarding both but still has pitfalls. A rule regarding orifice flow measurement is no bends ten pipe diameters before the transmitter. Mass flow can get away with less and following manufacturer datasheets are the rule in that respect.
If you are considerably larger with the diameter of a mass flow meter, do whatever you can to straighten out the flow upstream of the sensor in order to smooth flow across the sensor at low air speeds. Mesh screens are often designed in MAF sensors for this reason. A velocity stack is a real good suggestion and or air horns. If this is new territory and there is no example to follow, you may have a lot of time getting it to tune and may be better off trying a different design which already has the hours testing. Also note air flow at high mph can have really big affects on engine performance because of the turbulence from side winds etc., and a Dyno can not simulate this. Just my .02 but I don’t want to sound Daft… Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: NOTORIOUS VR on July 29, 2011, 01:04:54 PM Not taking it the wrong way at all.. thanks for your insight...
I will be investing in a new MAF setup completely and when I do I will revise my intake system.... I also want to get the stock airbox back in place. Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: Hansi on August 02, 2011, 02:22:27 PM Have you adjusted TEMIN?
Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: NOTORIOUS VR on August 02, 2011, 08:42:15 PM Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: judeisnotobscure on August 19, 2011, 01:23:31 PM How's the car running? any progress?
I've heard 450 whp i think but i just figured i'd ask. Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: NOTORIOUS VR on August 22, 2011, 09:54:44 AM It's running well.. too lazy to do any more tuning... I am assuming it's making around 450whp (dynojet) and went 11.9 @120 and 12.0 @ 120 mph... so I know the car is making good numbers.
That said, I've been recently having more and more misfires... I think my ign system is just getting too old to cope with the increased power. I've also been having more and more shutdowns/limp mode activation... Basically I'll get on it in 2nd/3rd and just as the boost comes on strong the car completely shuts down, I get a quick CEL and EPC light and then they go off and if I let off the gas and get back on I'm back to normal if the limp/shutdown happens and I stay on the gas (don't lift) I'm limited to 5 psi until I let go of the gas pedal. This happens completely randomly btw.. it doesn't always go into limp. I have no idea if it is related to the misfires or something I did in my last revision (started shortly after that) or maybe even a boost leak (doubt it). Gonna have to take some time and see exactly what is going on to cause this. Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: s5fourdoor on August 22, 2011, 10:27:34 AM i had something almost exactly like that and got rid of it by coding out my egts... just an idea if your AFR's are good, that should be fine on egt anyways...
Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: nyet on August 22, 2011, 10:53:10 AM I doubt it is anything this complicated. You probably have bad coilpacks, ICMs, or plugs.
Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: NOTORIOUS VR on August 22, 2011, 12:12:53 PM I doubt it is anything this complicated. You probably have bad coilpacks, ICMs, or plugs. to be honest, I'm assuming the same... going to do some trouble shooting tonight... got a new set of plugs just in case, and 2 spare CP's and boots (used but known good)... gonna go from there :) Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: judeisnotobscure on August 22, 2011, 08:17:33 PM Nice work man... saw the vids over on az.
I'm interested to see if you change maf setups. Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: s5fourdoor on August 22, 2011, 09:47:25 PM glad to see you crushing the 1/4 mile with those times...
how is your MLHFM set after all of this? also have you left your KFKHFM the same as the earlier image you uploaded on this thread? Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: NOTORIOUS VR on August 25, 2011, 12:18:51 PM ^^^ MLHFM is still the same as the NefMoto Stg 3 file... the compensation table is 1.00 for the most part right now.
Moving along... now that we have the KRKTE issue sorted out.. I've gone ahead and calculated to the best of my ability the proper values. Using the following to correct for pressure on the dead time values: http://www.injectordynamics.com/ID1000%20Ford%20Calibration%20-%202-24-2011.pdf In my current file I have the following (not yet tested BTW): KRKTE = 0.0264 ms/% TVUB as follows: 7v = 3.4778 10v = 1.9522 12v = 1.4829 14v = 1.2108 17.8v = 0.7334 FWIW with the incorrect scaling in the XDF my corrected KRKTE was 0.0319 ms/% I also stumbled upon a pretty neat .XLS files with flow ratings for almost every Bosch injector made and I've attached it to this post. Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: nyet on August 25, 2011, 12:23:32 PM Just as a tip: if you find you have to scale the MAF up too high for the "correct" KRKTE, you might want to consider keeping your MAF a bit underscaled, and your KRKTE on the high side.
A good rule of thumb is to keep your g/sec under 330-340, and your load under 191. Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: NOTORIOUS VR on August 25, 2011, 12:59:39 PM Just as a tip: if you find you have to scale the MAF up too high for the "correct" KRKTE, you might want to consider keeping your MAF a bit underscaled, and your KRKTE on the high side. A good rule of thumb is to keep your g/sec under 330-340, and your load under 191. Hah! You know what, I was just going to make a post about that. :) I kept going over it in my head. All the load tables only go to 191.. which means anything running off the table the ECU probably freaks out and has no idea what to do then. I've recently seen this and the consequences of it when I was with a friend tuning a Mitsubishi and a R35 Skyline. And it all makes perfect sense. My car really does freak out randomly... obviously looking at my logs I'm peaking around 390 g/sec. I will underscale my MAF as well now and see where I'm at then. Do you suggest I keep the same values and just scale them back by say 25% from start to finish? Also looking at my logs engine load is just at 220 peak... will this be reduced simply by underscaling the MAF? Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: nyet on August 25, 2011, 01:15:01 PM I kept going over it in my head. All the load tables only go to 191.. which means anything running off the table the ECU probably freaks out and has no idea what to do then. As far as I can tell, it doesn't freak out.. it either extrapolates out, or just uses 191. This is beyond my knowledge and experience, but I know some tuners extend the axis data to cover >191 in tables where they want it. I've never tried this. Quote Do you suggest I keep the same values and just scale them back by say 25% from start to finish? Yea. I just use the stock one as a reference, and scale that up or down. I don't scale anything other than the stock reference to prevent errors creeping in. 25% is probably a bit much.. maybe more like 10-15 should be sufficient. Quote Also looking at my logs engine load is just at 220 peak... will this be reduced simply by underscaling the MAF? Yup. Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: NOTORIOUS VR on August 25, 2011, 01:40:38 PM Thank you sir... I will be doing so and reporting back...
Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: s5fourdoor on August 25, 2011, 04:15:31 PM Wait a sec. Are you recommending we start with stock MAF and stock Load? If so, then how do you recommend we scale the MAF? I know before everyone was talking about the surface area ratio, but that's no longer the case. What is the procedure?
Start with stock. Do a pull with guesstimate KRKTE and get log. Use log to adjust KRKTE to set 11.6 AFR WOT. Rerun log with proper KRTKE and measure MAF g/s. Then scale MLHFM to adjust g/s to 340 max? After this is done we again re-scale KRKTE to reach proper WOT AFR with the scaled MLHFM. Is this what you are suggesting? Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: nyet on August 25, 2011, 04:22:28 PM IMO there are several ways to skin a cat. Here's what I do (not on the wiki because YMMV)
1) set FKKVS to all ones 2) if using open air intake, set KFKHFM to all ones. If using stock airbox, leave stock 3) calc approx KRKTE 4) calc approx MAF scaling for MLHFM 5) tweak TVUB/TEMIN if you think you need to 6) tweak KRKTE until your idle/part STFTs are near zero 7) Do a WOT run and make sure your WOT req afr is good - several choices here: BTS, LAMFA, or KR based enrichment (see http://s4wiki.com/wiki/Tuning#Open_loop_AFR and http://nefariousmotorsports.com/forum/index.php?topic=141.msg15756#msg15756) 7a) If your load is >191, or max MAF is >350, scale back MLHFM, and scale up KRKTE in equal parts until load/MAF is reasonable (optional, depending on your tuning philosophy. An underscaled MAF requires less maps be modified*). Go to step 6. 8) Tweak upper load lines of KFKHFM until WOT req afr matches actual afr (using a wideband sensor) 9) drive around and log idle/part STFTs and tweak KFKHFM until they are near zero again 10) repeat above as necessary Again, this is what *I* do... you might have better results doing other things. I'm hesitant to post this on the wiki, since I don't want to mislead people into thinking there is only one way to do it. *This is for K04's on a 2.7t! If you are running big boost or 3.0L etc, you might see significantly higher loads and MAF readings, so the 191 limit simply won't work. You may have to modify various table's load axes to do fine tuning past 191... Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: s5fourdoor on August 25, 2011, 04:23:06 PM ^^^ MLHFM is still the same as the NefMoto Stg 3 file... the compensation table is 1.00 for the most part right now. Moving along... now that we have the KRKTE issue sorted out.. I've gone ahead and calculated to the best of my ability the proper values. Using the following to correct for pressure on the dead time values: http://www.injectordynamics.com/ID1000%20Ford%20Calibration%20-%202-24-2011.pdf In my current file I have the following (not yet tested BTW): KRKTE = 0.0264 ms/% TVUB as follows: 7v = 3.4778 10v = 1.9522 12v = 1.4829 14v = 1.2108 17.8v = 0.7334 FWIW with the incorrect scaling in the XDF my corrected KRKTE was 0.0319 ms/% I also stumbled upon a pretty neat .XLS files with flow ratings for almost every Bosch injector made and I've attached it to this post. Hey - I believe you meant KFKHFM (MAF correction) instead of MLHFM (MAF voltage) in your above response, because KFKHFM is the table near 1.00 on the stock and nefmoto tunes. A few people have discussed just filling this table with actual 1.00, so I wasn't sure if you had done that or not. Also, I was wondering about your actual MLHFM (MAF voltage) scaling. There's been talking of surface area ratios, 85 vs 73, and I was wondering if you had done anything or just left this stock. Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: judeisnotobscure on August 25, 2011, 05:09:43 PM here is what i cam up with when i plugged everything into excel using a log fit to the voltage graph after 10.06 volts. for 7 and 10 volts there is almost a linear transfer between data points.
voltage time 7.04 4.3615 10.0672 2.030960097 12.03 1.656015569 14.08 1.3247899 17.8816 0.826594112 Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: NOTORIOUS VR on August 26, 2011, 08:33:08 AM Did some logs last night...
Not sure what to make of them... basically my first revised tune (with %10 underscaled MAF) seemed to be ok but still a little high in load. So I underscaled again by 10% and now the load seems to be in the right place.. but everything else is whack... especially on the first two runs I did... on the first run I got throttle cut @ 5k to 7k, on the next pull I got it around 6800 and on the 3rd pull no TC. I'm also getting a lot of timing oscillation which I can feel as misfires (maybe it is a misfire? I've been feel this for a while now), not really sure at this point now that I'm seeing the logs, as misfires will usually show up lean on the WB02 or even the NB02 in the log. http://schnell-engineering.com/logs/aug25/10under.csv http://schnell-engineering.com/logs/aug25/20under.csv http://schnell-engineering.com/logs/aug25/10under.xlsx http://schnell-engineering.com/logs/aug25/20under.xlsx Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: nyet on August 26, 2011, 08:39:32 AM With that amount of boost deviation, of course you are getting TC.
I'm not sure what you are intending here, but it doesn't make any damn sense :( I'd also log ldtvm and ldtvr_w ... also get a wideband and a boost gauge. Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: NOTORIOUS VR on August 26, 2011, 08:41:50 AM With that amount of boost deviation, of course you are getting TC. I'm not sure what you are intending here, but it doesn't make any damn sense :( I'm not even sure why I have such a boost deviation to be honest... or why that has changed. LDRXN? ugh... back to square one Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: nyet on August 26, 2011, 08:45:07 AM I'm not even sure why I have such a boost deviation to be honest... or why that has changed. UH. WHAT? Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: NOTORIOUS VR on August 26, 2011, 08:49:24 AM I understand that I underscaled the MAF and now my calculated load is lower...
What I don't get is why my requested is lower... whatever.. i'm gonna scrap these files and start fresh I guess... too many changes at once and this is what you get. I've been down this road before. Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: nyet on August 26, 2011, 09:01:46 AM No, you are thinking along the wrong lines.
there is something very wrong with your wastegates. Log wgdc. Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: NOTORIOUS VR on August 26, 2011, 09:09:39 AM No, you are thinking along the wrong lines. there is something very wrong with your wastegates. Log wgdc. WGDC is included in the logs. why do you think there is something wrong with the gates? Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: nyet on August 26, 2011, 09:18:57 AM Look at your requested boost. Look at your actual boost.
Now look at your WGDCs... you really expect that much boost at 30%? Please go back and study PIDs :) Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: NOTORIOUS VR on August 26, 2011, 09:36:25 AM Look at your requested boost. Look at your actual boost. Now look at your WGDCs... you really expect that much boost at 30%? Please go back and study PIDs :) Considering I see 22-23psi with 0% WGDC, it's not really out of the question yes. my gates are set to crack @ 18.5psi FWIW as per TiAL recommendations Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: nyet on August 26, 2011, 09:40:14 AM Yikes. I didn't realize wg cracking was so high.
You will have to make sure your requested boost stays above WG cracking pressure. Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: NOTORIOUS VR on August 26, 2011, 10:11:14 AM Yikes. I didn't realize wg cracking was so high. You will have to make sure your requested boost stays above WG cracking pressure. Makes perfect sense... I'll look into it and go back a few steps :) Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: NOTORIOUS VR on August 28, 2011, 08:36:49 PM Well I scrapped my file of underscaling the MAF... the car just wasn't reacting right to it... especially the req. boost... I have no idea why it was requesting what it was.. but I decided to go back to a very old (and safe) file with minimal WGDC and wow, the car drives so smooth again...
Also my phantom misfires are gone too from what I can tell... and I'm almost 100% sure now that the "misfires" were actually the timing oscillations. Not sure what I'm going to do now... with this file everything seems to work really well except for the richness @ 21-23 in hg and the warm start issue... But I think if I do some slight MAF scaling down low and play with the TVUB settings I can work that out and I should have a solid base file that I hope I don't have to touch anymore for a while :P Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: judeisnotobscure on August 29, 2011, 05:37:48 AM try messing with kfkhfm at the 2 lowest rpm rows and lower the numbers to lean it out a little. I've had good luck fixing idle issues this way.
Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: NOTORIOUS VR on August 29, 2011, 05:47:39 AM Idle is fine though (even the trims)... it's only on just before over-run that it goes pig rich (11.0)... I'm good up until 21 in hg. after that it just dumps fuel (inj pw. doesn't go below 1.70ms.. and I noticed once I scaled my MAF I was able to hit 1.38ms)
Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: judeisnotobscure on August 29, 2011, 06:33:24 AM If that's the case, how do you scale your mlhfm... I normally multiply the whole table by my correction factor and then start the first value back around stock and do a rough smooth over the first 20-30 or so values.
have you ever compared the bosch rs4 vs. s4 bosch maf scaling... the rs4 values start lower than the s4. Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: NOTORIOUS VR on August 29, 2011, 07:27:11 AM Honestly, I just selected the entire table and divided by 10% each time last time (did it twice until I ended up @ 20% underscaled from the original values).
This time I'm not sure how I will do it... Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: judeisnotobscure on August 29, 2011, 07:35:48 AM this time take a stock hitatchi table and multiply it by 1.1644 then smooth the low end like I said and see how it works for u.
Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: NOTORIOUS VR on August 29, 2011, 07:59:54 AM I'll try that and post up how it works out... thanks!
Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: nyet on August 29, 2011, 02:59:44 PM Also, if you see timing oscillations, PLEASE post logs! In particular, see if you can log more of the things in the MD and ZUE path... miist, misol, zwbas, zwist, zwopt etc. etc. etc.
I really want to solve that issue once and for all. Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: NOTORIOUS VR on August 29, 2011, 03:34:32 PM I have normal ECUx logs that I can post up that show the oscillations... but that's it...
I ain't putting that whack program back in my car. I can however send you the program that goes with the logs if you like. Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: nyet on August 29, 2011, 04:18:42 PM Naw. Just for the future... IF you see oscillations, please log them so we can figure it out :)
Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: Flyingfish on September 02, 2011, 08:15:50 PM I am blown away with the amount of great info in this thread. Thanks alot guys. I love my 605's and cant believe how much you guys know about tuning.
Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: NOTORIOUS VR on September 09, 2011, 07:01:08 AM Thanks... there is still so much to learn though... but with as many great people on this site as we have, every day things are getting uncovered.
That said, I played around with the TQ structure IOP IRL, etc... The car feels a lot better now, ign drop outs are less then before (although still there sometimes). Boost is more consistent... all around just better. But there is still a lot of work/testing to be done with that stuff. Logs from last night: (http://schnell-engineering.com/logs/sept8/sept8_files/4runs_compare_graph_v11.16_23037_image002.gif) (http://schnell-engineering.com/logs/sept8/sept8_files/4runs_compare_graph_v11.16_23037_image004.gif) (http://schnell-engineering.com/logs/sept8/sept8_files/4runs_compare_graph_v11.16_23037_image006.gif) (http://schnell-engineering.com/logs/sept8/sept8_files/4runs_compare_graph_v11.16_23037_image008.gif) (http://schnell-engineering.com/logs/sept8/sept8_files/4runs_compare_graph_v11.16_23037_image010.gif) (http://schnell-engineering.com/logs/sept8/sept8_files/4runs_compare_graph_v11.16_23037_image012.gif) (http://schnell-engineering.com/logs/sept8/sept8_files/4runs_compare_graph_v11.16_23037_image014.gif) (http://schnell-engineering.com/logs/sept8/sept8_files/4runs_compare_graph_v11.16_23037_image016.gif) (http://schnell-engineering.com/logs/sept8/sept8_files/4runs_compare_graph_v11.16_23037_image018.gif) (http://schnell-engineering.com/logs/sept8/sept8_files/4runs_compare_graph_v11.16_23037_image020.gif) (http://schnell-engineering.com/logs/sept8/sept8_files/4runs_compare_graph_v11.16_23037_image022.gif) (http://schnell-engineering.com/logs/sept8/sept8_files/4runs_compare_graph_v11.16_23037_image024.gif) (http://schnell-engineering.com/logs/sept8/sept8_files/4runs_compare_graph_v11.16_23037_image026.gif) (http://schnell-engineering.com/logs/sept8/sept8_files/4runs_compare_graph_v11.16_23037_image028.gif) (http://schnell-engineering.com/logs/sept8/sept8_files/4runs_compare_graph_v11.16_23037_image030.gif) (http://schnell-engineering.com/logs/sept8/sept8_files/4runs_compare_graph_v11.16_23037_image032.gif) (http://schnell-engineering.com/logs/sept8/sept8_files/4runs_compare_graph_v11.16_23037_image037.gif) (http://schnell-engineering.com/logs/sept8/sept8_files/4runs_compare_graph_v11.16_23037_image038.gif) (http://schnell-engineering.com/logs/sept8/sept8_files/4runs_compare_graph_v11.16_23037_image039.gif) (http://schnell-engineering.com/logs/sept8/sept8_files/4runs_compare_graph_v11.16_23037_image040.gif) (http://schnell-engineering.com/logs/sept8/sept8_files/4runs_compare_graph_v11.16_23037_image043.gif) (http://schnell-engineering.com/logs/sept8/sept8_files/4runs_compare_graph_v11.16_23037_image044.gif) (http://schnell-engineering.com/logs/sept8/sept8_files/4runs_compare_graph_v11.16_23037_image046.gif) (http://schnell-engineering.com/logs/sept8/sept8_files/4runs_compare_graph_v11.16_23037_image048.gif) (http://schnell-engineering.com/logs/sept8/sept8_files/4runs_compare_graph_v11.16_23037_image052.gif) (http://schnell-engineering.com/logs/sept8/sept8_files/4runs_compare_graph_v11.16_23037_image053.gif) Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: judeisnotobscure on September 09, 2011, 07:43:22 AM nice, looks smooth... a little rich though. what maf scaling did u use on this file?
changing that iop map had a pretty good impact on part throttle i bet. Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: NOTORIOUS VR on September 09, 2011, 08:15:17 AM nice, looks smooth... a little rich though. what maf scaling did u use on this file? changing that iop map had a pretty good impact on part throttle i bet. not that bad... 11.1-11.3... nefmoto stg 3 scaling, scaled back 10%... yes the car feels really good.. need to play with irl/iop more though... Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: nyet on September 09, 2011, 08:19:34 AM PLEASE try to log some of the torque variables mentioned in the other thread. Trying to find the reason for the ignition dropouts experimentally isn't really productive :(
Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: NOTORIOUS VR on September 09, 2011, 08:35:57 AM yes I know... I have to install setzi's logger and configure it... I will try to get you proper logs by the weekend :)
Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: nyet on September 09, 2011, 08:39:07 AM Yea. It looks really good!
I think you could probably go a bit leaner; you have really good timing and almost no correction.... i'd bet you'd pick up a bit of hp. Do you have a wideband? Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: NOTORIOUS VR on September 09, 2011, 09:17:48 AM I do... and it reads around 11.1-11.3 at worst...
but fuel @ this point isn't my focus... since it's constantly changing... sometimes I'll get on it and it will be leaner... I'm trying to focus on the deviations in general with only minor tweaks to fueling as I go along. The car does feel great though... remember all the times I was complaining about TC around 10-15psi? Well it's still there, but its no where near as noticeable now... so I'm guessing it is something with the TQ management Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: nyet on September 09, 2011, 09:21:32 AM also to summarize some of the vars you need for debugging torque interference (i think... i am probably missing a few)
mdverl,mrfa ALL of the mi's (miasrl, miasrs, miext, mifa, etc) zwbasar_* zwist zwopt zwout Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: phila_dot on September 09, 2011, 11:15:37 AM also to summarize some of the vars you need for debugging torque interference (i think... i am probably missing a few) mdverl,mrfa ALL of the mi's (miasrl, miasrs, miext, mifa, etc) zwbasar_* zwist zwopt zwout I think the main culprit is zwsol Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: nyet on September 09, 2011, 01:34:59 PM The car does feel great though... remember all the times I was complaining about TC around 10-15psi? Well it's still there, but its no where near as noticeable now... so I'm guessing it is something with the TQ management TC is slow path, which is almost always due to negative deviation or ASR, unless there is something VERY wrong with your torque limits. See if you can get a clean log of your TC; I'm sure it will be obvious. Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: nyet on September 09, 2011, 02:45:26 PM I think the main culprit is zwsol Soo... zwopt - dzws (detazwbs in ME7L??) via DZWETA? ME7L has neither zwsol, etazws nor dzws :( Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: phila_dot on September 09, 2011, 03:15:36 PM I think the main culprit is zwsol Soo... zwopt - dzws (detazwbs in ME7L??) via DZWETA? ME7L has neither zwsol, etazws nor dzws :( Exactly. If we had the RAM address we could manually add them or we could ask Setzi really nicely. I have been trying to figure out if I could force ME7Info to find them, but I have not been successful. Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: Tony@NefMoto on September 14, 2011, 04:17:27 PM 8D0907551M 002
etazws 0x380D96 Percent byte unsigned 0.5 dzws 0x380D95 Degrees byte signed 0.75 zwopt 0x380CB6 Degrees byte signed 0.75 zwsol 0x380D97 Degrees byte signed 0.75 Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: nyet on September 14, 2011, 07:06:05 PM THANK YOU!
hopefully it will help me with this: http://nefariousmotorsports.com/forum/index.php/topic,970.msg8740.html#msg8740 Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: Tony@NefMoto on September 15, 2011, 02:12:15 PM Sorry I am late to the party as usual, but here is what I hope is some helpful advice. Don't change multiple pieces of hardware on the car at the same time when tuning.
I would recommend tuning the MAF or injectors in isolation rather than trying to tune for both of them at the same time. Currently you don't know if a miscalibrated MAF or injectors could be causing your problem. When I tuned my car I started with a stock file and K04 turbos with 60lb injectors. Then I tuned the injector latency and scale based on long term fuel trims. Once the injector constants were stable, then I switched to a larger MAF, and again used long term fuel trims to determine the MAF linearization table. Only after the injectors and MAF were stable did I ever turn up the boost or attempt to tune AFR and timing. This is the same approach that the books written by Greg Banish recommend. Also, the NefMoto stage 3 base tune should probably be called an example tune instead of a base tune. Not to mention it works well on my car, and not always on other cars. If anyone can tell me what is non-standard about my car I am all ears. ;D Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: NOTORIOUS VR on September 21, 2011, 03:55:58 PM Well I did some more playing.. less agressive settings on IOP, more changes IRL and complete remap and scaling of LDRXN. The car feels very solid and fast now, with no noticeable bucking/timing drops. No logs because it's raining here.
Also strange thing, I think properly scaling LDRXN fixed my rich light cruise issue because the AFR's are perfect now! I'll try to have some logs soon to see what I am (not) feeling is true. I'm betting it is though! Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: judeisnotobscure on September 23, 2011, 06:27:07 PM fantastic work! I'm looking forward to seeing your logs. I think e85 should be in your future, the timing you can run is amazing.... can't remember if you did rods or not though. If not, they will need to be done for e85. I think you could see 550 whp.
Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: NOTORIOUS VR on September 23, 2011, 09:31:05 PM Yeah, I wan to do some logs... I take a few when i get back from OC though. I would love to do E85, I specifically bought 1000cc injectors for it, thing is there is only one gas station in all of Ontario (really there is two, but the other one is 6 hrs away), and they don't sell E85 to anything but FlexFuel cars.
One day I'll get to it though! And no I don't have rods... but IMO our motors are good for over 500whp on stock rods ;) Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: paracaidista2.7T on September 25, 2011, 04:41:11 PM Yeah, I wan to do some logs... I take a few when i get back from OC though. I would love to do E85, I specifically bought 1000cc injectors for it, thing is there is only one gas station in all of Ontario (really there is two, but the other one is 6 hrs away), and they don't sell E85 to anything but FlexFuel cars. I put a rod through the side of a motor with stock rods on K04s, be careful. This was with a hard mounted LM-2.One day I'll get to it though! And no I don't have rods... but IMO our motors are good for over 500whp on stock rods ;) Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: s5fourdoor on September 26, 2011, 03:02:22 PM holy crap, how much boost was that?
Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: NOTORIOUS VR on September 27, 2011, 03:42:45 AM I put a rod through the side of a motor with stock rods on K04s, be careful. This was with a hard mounted LM-2. I'm not saying it's not possible to window your blow or bend a rod with less power... as the tune will dictate how well your motor will survive. But I've seen far too many people with aggressive tunes on K04's running win the 480-490wtq range early on in the RPM band (something I will never see). Besides, if it happens, it happens ;) Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: s5fourdoor on September 27, 2011, 08:59:39 AM 480wtq with k04's? i need to see a dyno / spec sheet on that... i've yet to see a dyno chart of a k04 car over 450wtq. 605's are another story, but anyways thats a power level i've never heard quoted nor seen a dyno chart about.
Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: NOTORIOUS VR on September 27, 2011, 09:07:11 AM There are a few E85 K04 cars that run it... and there is at least one FT car that is doing it on pump + meth
Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: Tony@NefMoto on September 27, 2011, 10:25:56 AM One thing I started wondering last night...
Are you planning on releasing your Tial 605 tune to the community when you feel it is stable? By no means should you feel obligated to, but it is always nice to have another tune to compare techniques to. Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: NOTORIOUS VR on September 27, 2011, 11:40:23 AM yes I am actually... it will not be as aggressive as my current tune, but I will release one for people to start with :)
Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: paracaidista2.7T on September 27, 2011, 05:35:27 PM holy crap, how much boost was that? That was at 22psi. 100k miles on the motor, stage 3 since about 43k. It was about 435 wtq. Was going well into triple digits in 5th. Pistons were clean, nothing abnormal. YMMV, but it can happen.Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: NOTORIOUS VR on September 27, 2011, 07:58:40 PM if you put a hole in your block @ that psi on K04's with that kind of power something else happened. It wasn't from too much power I'll tell you that much.
Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: judeisnotobscure on September 28, 2011, 03:23:48 AM 480wtq with k04's? i need to see a dyno / spec sheet on that... i've yet to see a dyno chart of a k04 car over 450wtq. 605's are another story, but anyways thats a power level i've never heard quoted nor seen a dyno chart about. I'm pretty sure i know a guy with a ko4 e85 tune that runs close to 480 wtq... I don't have dyno numbers that support this, but I do have a folder full of logs that suggests close to that. back to back 3.1 second fats but I agree 605's are another story. On e85 they can do 530+ wtq easily. Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: NOTORIOUS VR on October 02, 2011, 08:43:11 PM Logs from today... Still getting that damn bump in load which is effecting my fueling.. I don't get why it's doing it....
(http://schnell-engineering.com/logs/oct2/Oct2_5403_image002.gif) (http://schnell-engineering.com/logs/oct2/Oct2_5403_image004.gif) (http://schnell-engineering.com/logs/oct2/Oct2_5403_image006.gif) (http://schnell-engineering.com/logs/oct2/Oct2_5403_image008.gif) (http://schnell-engineering.com/logs/oct2/Oct2_5403_image010.gif) (http://schnell-engineering.com/logs/oct2/Oct2_5403_image012.gif) (http://schnell-engineering.com/logs/oct2/Oct2_5403_image014.gif) (http://schnell-engineering.com/logs/oct2/Oct2_5403_image016.gif) (http://schnell-engineering.com/logs/oct2/Oct2_5403_image018.gif) (http://schnell-engineering.com/logs/oct2/Oct2_5403_image020.gif) (http://schnell-engineering.com/logs/oct2/Oct2_5403_image022.gif) (http://schnell-engineering.com/logs/oct2/Oct2_5403_image024.gif) (http://schnell-engineering.com/logs/oct2/Oct2_5403_image026.gif) (http://schnell-engineering.com/logs/oct2/Oct2_5403_image028.gif) (http://schnell-engineering.com/logs/oct2/Oct2_5403_image030.gif) (http://schnell-engineering.com/logs/oct2/Oct2_5403_image032.gif) (http://schnell-engineering.com/logs/oct2/Oct2_5403_image037.gif) (http://schnell-engineering.com/logs/oct2/Oct2_5403_image038.gif) (http://schnell-engineering.com/logs/oct2/Oct2_5403_image039.gif) (http://schnell-engineering.com/logs/oct2/Oct2_5403_image040.gif) (http://schnell-engineering.com/logs/oct2/Oct2_5403_image043.gif) (http://schnell-engineering.com/logs/oct2/Oct2_5403_image044.gif) (http://schnell-engineering.com/logs/oct2/Oct2_5403_image046.gif) (http://schnell-engineering.com/logs/oct2/Oct2_5403_image048.gif) (http://schnell-engineering.com/logs/oct2/Oct2_5403_image052.gif) (http://schnell-engineering.com/logs/oct2/Oct2_5403_image053.gif) Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: berTTos on October 04, 2011, 07:13:48 AM are these torque monitoring values stock? - RLVMXN RLVSMXN KFMIZUFIL Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: NOTORIOUS VR on October 04, 2011, 11:16:21 AM are these torque monitoring values stock? - RLVMXN RLVSMXN KFMIZUFIL From what I can remember yet. Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: nyet on October 04, 2011, 11:24:38 AM I'd scale your MAF back a bit, or possibly increase rlmax
It looks like you are hitting your spec load, and the ECU is capping something. I'll have to dig through the FR. Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: NOTORIOUS VR on October 04, 2011, 05:14:47 PM Quite possible... I'm gonna try to scale back the MAF again when I have some time... I also want to try fueling via LAMFA as well...
Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: nyet on October 04, 2011, 06:46:42 PM Here is my decode of the calc of rl (load) based on the FR.
Code: rl = rfges - rfagr Yea. It's a mess. I'll have to think about possible sources of that notch. If you really care, we may need to log a few more things :) Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: NOTORIOUS VR on October 04, 2011, 08:31:59 PM I'm down for whatever...
I need to get Setzi's logger setup and running... Do we have a decent/default config for all the variables I should be logging? Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: Snow Trooper on October 06, 2011, 02:19:55 PM why do you start with a lower WGDC, arent you on aftermarket gates?
I think your low DC during spool up is hurting. as for that load bump, no idea. Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: berTTos on October 06, 2011, 04:35:51 PM are these torque monitoring values stock? - RLVMXN RLVSMXN KFMIZUFIL Try loosesning up the torque limit tables --- solved my torque intervention issues. If you loosen these up and your dip is replaced with a throttle cut and Torque Monitoring Limit Exceeded code then I bet you need to scale back your MAF. (https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-JUv8ygMog70/To46grTFeRI/AAAAAAAADGI/TVBff6Xdf_0/s800/TorqueLimits.GIF) From what I can remember yet. Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: nyet on October 06, 2011, 04:44:13 PM Bert, according to the FR, the output of RLVMXN/RLVSMXN only goes into KFMIOP if SY_TURBO is false!
If SY_TURBO is true, rlmax goes into KFMIOP. to generate mimax with FMIVL. (http://nyet.org/cars/images/FDEF-MDMAX.png) I can find no other reference to RLVMXN anywhere in the FR! Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: berTTos on October 06, 2011, 07:59:58 PM Bert, according to the FR, the output of RLVMXN/RLVSMXN only goes into KFMIOP if SY_TURBO is false! If SY_TURBO is true, rlmax goes into KFMIOP. to generate mimax with FMIVL. (http://nyet.org/cars/images/FDEF-MDMAX.png) I can find no other reference to RLVMXN anywhere in the FR! I noticed this too, however, it worked in my current tune. I had a weird load decrease which was eliminated by addressing those 3 tables. Another instance of black magic - I know... the appropriate variables need to be logged to confirm exactly what is going on. Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: NOTORIOUS VR on October 13, 2011, 06:24:17 PM My next move is to underscale my MAF some more to bring my load range back to normal levels... but I will keep that in mind for sure if I am still having issues with timing dropout's and TQ intervention.
Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: NOTORIOUS VR on October 18, 2011, 01:58:10 PM Alright tried something completely different 2 days ago... and here are the logs from that...
I started with a completely stock M-box and transferred only the MAF scaling from the NefMoto STG3 file... the rest is all new... interesting results to say the least... the car feels pretty strong and for the most part fairly smooth (I can feel the ign drop outs though). Initial fueling is based on LAMFA (went a little more aggressive to see how it would all react), IOP load points are rescaled and go now to 205... what I don't understand at this point is why the ECU is pulling that much timing and why my req. boost curve looks the way it does... also the "notch" in the engine load doesn't make all that much sense either, but I'm going to try and work through this and see what I can turn this into. any comments? Logs (.csv posted as an attachment).... (http://schnell-engineering.com/logs/oct16/image01.gif) (http://schnell-engineering.com/logs/oct16/image02.gif) (http://schnell-engineering.com/logs/oct16/image03.gif) (http://schnell-engineering.com/logs/oct16/image04.gif) (http://schnell-engineering.com/logs/oct16/image05.gif) (http://schnell-engineering.com/logs/oct16/image06.gif) (http://schnell-engineering.com/logs/oct16/image07.gif) (http://schnell-engineering.com/logs/oct16/image08.gif) (http://schnell-engineering.com/logs/oct16/image09.gif) (http://schnell-engineering.com/logs/oct16/image10.gif) (http://schnell-engineering.com/logs/oct16/image11.gif) (http://schnell-engineering.com/logs/oct16/image12.gif) (http://schnell-engineering.com/logs/oct16/image13.gif) (http://schnell-engineering.com/logs/oct16/image14.gif) (http://schnell-engineering.com/logs/oct16/image15.gif) (http://schnell-engineering.com/logs/oct16/image16.gif) (http://schnell-engineering.com/logs/oct16/image17.gif) (http://schnell-engineering.com/logs/oct16/image18.gif) (http://schnell-engineering.com/logs/oct16/image19.gif) (http://schnell-engineering.com/logs/oct16/image20.gif) (http://schnell-engineering.com/logs/oct16/image21.gif) (http://schnell-engineering.com/logs/oct16/image22.gif) (http://schnell-engineering.com/logs/oct16/image23.gif) (http://schnell-engineering.com/logs/oct16/image24.gif) (http://schnell-engineering.com/logs/oct16/image25.gif) (http://schnell-engineering.com/logs/oct16/image26.gif) (http://schnell-engineering.com/logs/oct16/image27.gif) Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: nyet on October 18, 2011, 02:25:17 PM Timing looks fine to me.
You could probably add a bit more fuel. Need a wideband to see if your req AFR is lining up right with actual. Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: NOTORIOUS VR on October 18, 2011, 02:39:07 PM yeah I'm still only using my eyes to "log" from my WBO2 gauge... for the most part it looks alright... can use some more fuel in a few places...
timing "looks" ok, but not great... seems like the load has shifted and now it's running more timing in the low/spool end and less up top towards redline... so I def need to fix that. Also the KV are about the same as my other tunes but KR is higher which I believe is tune related (not necessarily actual knock). Either way looks to be a promising start... definitely needs more messaging... Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: nyet on October 18, 2011, 11:58:12 PM timing "looks" ok, but not great... seems like the load has shifted and now it's running more timing in the low/spool end and less up top towards redline... so I def need to fix that. If you are riding the knock limit (and I think you are), from experience there are only a few ways to get more timing. 1) less boost 2) more fuel 3) cooler IATs 4) water injection 5) octane, octane, octane and the weirdest one 6) less timing Thats right. If your CFs are over 5 or 6, you might pick up a half a degree to a degree by PULLING requested timing. Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: phila_dot on October 19, 2011, 10:21:31 AM Timing curve looks fine to me. It looks like your KFZW tables could possibly use some smoothing out though. Are you logging the different inputs to zwout to see what variable it is following?
I agree with everything Nyet said. I think you would benefit by pulling a little timing to get those CF's in check until you can upgrade your air charge cooling. KR tends to overreact IMO. Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: NOTORIOUS VR on October 19, 2011, 10:39:32 AM I disagree with both of you that the timing curve looks fine/good.
Timing needs to go up quite a bit in the top end of things... That said, Nyet what makes you think I am riding the knock limit? Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: nyet on October 19, 2011, 11:05:38 AM I disagree with both of you that the timing curve looks fine/good. Timing needs to go up quite a bit in the top end of things... Shrug. The list I posted is all there is, unless you are ready to numb the KR system. Quote That said, Nyet what makes you think I am riding the knock limit? Your CFs are non-zero. Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: NOTORIOUS VR on October 19, 2011, 11:13:23 AM Shrug. The list I posted is all there is, unless you are ready to numb the KR system. That is besides the point... the timing is too low in the top end. You NEED ign advance to rise in the top end. Quote Your CFs are non-zero. You truly believe that CF's are only related to knock? I don't. Although I haven't really looked into it much (ok not at all really to the point of checking the FR), I'm of the opinion from some experiences that CF's can/will come down when you play with other variables in the ECU (like TQ mgmt). Has it been looked into that CF's are showing only knock retard and that no other ECU compensations would show in the Correction Factors tables/output? Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: phila_dot on October 19, 2011, 12:13:39 PM Shrug. The list I posted is all there is, unless you are ready to numb the KR system. That is besides the point... the timing is too low in the top end. You NEED ign advance to rise in the top end. Quote Your CFs are non-zero. You truly believe that CF's are only related to knock? I don't. Although I haven't really looked into it much (ok not at all really to the point of checking the FR), I'm of the opinion from some experiences that CF's can/will come down when you play with other variables in the ECU (like TQ mgmt). Has it been looked into that CF's are showing only knock retard and that no other ECU compensations would show in the Correction Factors tables/output? You are correct that timing should rise in the top end. Timing should drop as load rises and rise as RPM increases. Hence the "curve". Torque management doesn't intervence through CF's. Torque management intervenes as ZWSOL in ZUE. DWKRZ basically only reflects knock intervention. KR also intervenes via WKRDY, but this is not reflected in DWKRZ(i). Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: NOTORIOUS VR on October 19, 2011, 12:27:21 PM Torque management doesn't intervence through CF's. Torque management intervenes as ZWSOL in ZUE. DWKRZ basically only reflects knock intervention. KR also intervenes via WKRDY, but this is not reflected in DWKRZ(i). Interesting... Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: nyet on October 19, 2011, 12:28:53 PM Has it been looked into that CF's are showing only knock retard and that no other ECU compensations would show in the Correction Factors tables/output? I am loathe to say I'm 100% confident in anything in ME, but i've logged almost the ENTIRE timing path, and I BELIEVE CF is ONLY from KR... and short term only! It doesn't include long term KR correction... IMO right now, the easiest way for you to get more timing is to add more fuel :( try 11.0-11.5 or pull boost.. Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: phila_dot on October 19, 2011, 12:42:48 PM Has it been looked into that CF's are showing only knock retard and that no other ECU compensations would show in the Correction Factors tables/output? I am loathe to say I'm 100% confident in anything in ME, but i've logged almost the ENTIRE timing path, and I BELIEVE CF is ONLY from KR... and short term only! It doesn't include long term KR correction... IMO right now, the easiest way for you to get more timing is to add more fuel :( try 11.0-11.5 or pull boost.. wkra is included in dwkrz. I will be disabling kra and krldya when I redo my timing. Adaptation is only a hindrance while tuning. Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: Gonzo on October 19, 2011, 04:44:58 PM nyet is right, more fuel, less timing or less boost will bring the CF down.
I would try more fuel (if possible) and pull timing a little bit and see how that goes. You can't have moar boost and moar timing at the same time. I'd say your timing needs some work. Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: nyet on October 19, 2011, 04:47:27 PM wkra is included in dwkrz. Err. my mistake. I was thinking of wkrdy. Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: NOTORIOUS VR on October 20, 2011, 02:11:23 PM nyet is right, more fuel, less timing or less boost will bring the CF down. I would try more fuel (if possible) and pull timing a little bit and see how that goes. You can't have moar boost and moar timing at the same time. I'd say your timing needs some work. Guys, you're clearly missing the fact that it's an incomplete tune.. I'm quite aware how to tune a motor... Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: NOTORIOUS VR on October 20, 2011, 09:13:48 PM Alright, did some fine tooning tonight and I'm very happy with the results... enough so that I'm going to keep it like this for now. Only things I still want to change is reduce WGDC @ lower loads (currently locked @ 90%) since I don't want the N75 to burn out for no reason, and lean it out ever so slightly between 6-6.5k.
BTW, my meth kit was (and still is) disconnected while creating these files so WYSIWYG! (http://schnell-engineering.com/logs/oct20/image01.gif) (http://schnell-engineering.com/logs/oct20/image02.gif) (http://schnell-engineering.com/logs/oct20/image03.gif) (http://schnell-engineering.com/logs/oct20/image04.gif) (http://schnell-engineering.com/logs/oct20/image05.gif) (http://schnell-engineering.com/logs/oct20/image06.gif) (http://schnell-engineering.com/logs/oct20/image07.gif) (http://schnell-engineering.com/logs/oct20/image08.gif) (http://schnell-engineering.com/logs/oct20/image09.gif) (http://schnell-engineering.com/logs/oct20/image10.gif) (http://schnell-engineering.com/logs/oct20/image11.gif) (http://schnell-engineering.com/logs/oct20/image12.gif) (http://schnell-engineering.com/logs/oct20/image13.gif) (http://schnell-engineering.com/logs/oct20/image14.gif) (http://schnell-engineering.com/logs/oct20/image15.gif) (http://schnell-engineering.com/logs/oct20/image16.gif) (http://schnell-engineering.com/logs/oct20/image17.gif) (http://schnell-engineering.com/logs/oct20/image18.gif) (http://schnell-engineering.com/logs/oct20/image19.gif) (http://schnell-engineering.com/logs/oct20/image20.gif) (http://schnell-engineering.com/logs/oct20/image21.gif) (http://schnell-engineering.com/logs/oct20/image22.gif) (http://schnell-engineering.com/logs/oct20/image23.gif) (http://schnell-engineering.com/logs/oct20/image24.gif) (http://schnell-engineering.com/logs/oct20/image25.gif) (http://schnell-engineering.com/logs/oct20/image26.gif) (http://schnell-engineering.com/logs/oct20/image27.gif) Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: NOTORIOUS VR on October 24, 2011, 07:34:14 AM logs of the current tune.... now more aggressive...
(http://schnell-engineering.com/logs/oct23/image01.gif) (http://schnell-engineering.com/logs/oct23/image02.gif) (http://schnell-engineering.com/logs/oct23/image03.gif) (http://schnell-engineering.com/logs/oct23/image04.gif) (http://schnell-engineering.com/logs/oct23/image05.gif) (http://schnell-engineering.com/logs/oct23/image06.gif) (http://schnell-engineering.com/logs/oct23/image07.gif) (http://schnell-engineering.com/logs/oct23/image08.gif) (http://schnell-engineering.com/logs/oct23/image09.gif) (http://schnell-engineering.com/logs/oct23/image10.gif) (http://schnell-engineering.com/logs/oct23/image11.gif) (http://schnell-engineering.com/logs/oct23/image12.gif) (http://schnell-engineering.com/logs/oct23/image13.gif) (http://schnell-engineering.com/logs/oct23/image14.gif) (http://schnell-engineering.com/logs/oct23/image15.gif) (http://schnell-engineering.com/logs/oct23/image16.gif) (http://schnell-engineering.com/logs/oct23/image17.gif) (http://schnell-engineering.com/logs/oct23/image18.gif) (http://schnell-engineering.com/logs/oct23/image19.gif) (http://schnell-engineering.com/logs/oct23/image20.gif) (http://schnell-engineering.com/logs/oct23/image21.gif) (http://schnell-engineering.com/logs/oct23/image22.gif) (http://schnell-engineering.com/logs/oct23/image23.gif) (http://schnell-engineering.com/logs/oct23/image24.gif) (http://schnell-engineering.com/logs/oct23/image25.gif) (http://schnell-engineering.com/logs/oct23/image26.gif) (http://schnell-engineering.com/logs/oct23/image27.gif) Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: nyet on October 24, 2011, 10:07:50 AM You've got 0 CFs now! :) Looking really good man.
You can add a bit of timing back. Just get all the cylinders correcting (1-5 deg CF) and you're set! Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: NOTORIOUS VR on October 24, 2011, 10:11:43 AM yup... as usual i'm not ever done lol... i'll keep messaging this tune... I'm much happier with it over my previous ones. also if you notice my accel. graph is a lot stronger and broader.
Now if I can just figure out how to get my damn inj pw lower then 1.7ms I would be one happy Audi driver :P Also I'm now running W/M again just for info. Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: judeisnotobscure on October 24, 2011, 04:42:50 PM coming along very nicely.
u didn't hit the track with this one yet right? I saw someone talking sh!t over on az about your time slip. lol, i doubt they could tune their way out of a wet paper bag. Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: NOTORIOUS VR on October 24, 2011, 06:29:01 PM Correct, I made this tune after the track (because of the track time actually lol)
Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: NOTORIOUS VR on October 25, 2011, 04:02:50 PM So ummm ya.... made another revision... this tune is starting to look VERY nice.... The car pulls really nice now...
this run was done slightly uphill in the poring rain kinda spinning (I barely have traction in 3rd as it is now from downlow) and netted me a pretty nice Accel. graph and 3.19 FATS.. Boost is @ max 25 psi... running W/M still... Teaser of the logs: (http://i55.tinypic.com/161dffk.jpg) Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: nyet on October 25, 2011, 04:50:40 PM Do a HP/TQ log :)
Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: NOTORIOUS VR on October 25, 2011, 07:56:55 PM ^^^ Is there a specific way to do that?
I just put the log into ECUxPlot and this is what it came up with... I'll have to try again when it's not raining and I'm not going uphill though lol... (http://i40.tinypic.com/t8vx46.jpg) Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: NOTORIOUS VR on October 25, 2011, 08:07:22 PM Full logs....
(http://schnell-engineering.com/logs/oct25/image01.gif) (http://schnell-engineering.com/logs/oct25/image02.gif) (http://schnell-engineering.com/logs/oct25/image03.gif) (http://schnell-engineering.com/logs/oct25/image04.gif) (http://schnell-engineering.com/logs/oct25/image05.gif) (http://schnell-engineering.com/logs/oct25/image06.gif) (http://schnell-engineering.com/logs/oct25/image07.gif) (http://schnell-engineering.com/logs/oct25/image08.gif) (http://schnell-engineering.com/logs/oct25/image09.gif) (http://schnell-engineering.com/logs/oct25/image10.gif) (http://schnell-engineering.com/logs/oct25/image11.gif) (http://schnell-engineering.com/logs/oct25/image12.gif) (http://schnell-engineering.com/logs/oct25/image13.gif) (http://schnell-engineering.com/logs/oct25/image14.gif) (http://schnell-engineering.com/logs/oct25/image15.gif) (http://schnell-engineering.com/logs/oct25/image16.gif) (http://schnell-engineering.com/logs/oct25/image17.gif) (http://schnell-engineering.com/logs/oct25/image18.gif) (http://schnell-engineering.com/logs/oct25/image19.gif) (http://schnell-engineering.com/logs/oct25/image20.gif) (http://schnell-engineering.com/logs/oct25/image21.gif) (http://schnell-engineering.com/logs/oct25/image22.gif) (http://schnell-engineering.com/logs/oct25/image23.gif) (http://schnell-engineering.com/logs/oct25/image24.gif) (http://schnell-engineering.com/logs/oct25/image25.gif) (http://schnell-engineering.com/logs/oct25/image26.gif) (http://schnell-engineering.com/logs/oct25/image27.gif) Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: nyet on October 25, 2011, 08:14:51 PM ^^^ Is there a specific way to do that? Nope. You got it. There are constants in the vehicle setup area.. so you might want to twiddle weight, etc. Also, if you log ambient pressure and temp, in theory, it should be able to do SAE correction. Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: NOTORIOUS VR on October 26, 2011, 05:31:33 AM So I'm going into hard limp mode when pushing the accelerator to only around 20-25%... I get the code something along the lines of Torque Model 2 Exceeded....
Not sure what to do about it at this point... I'm going to try to be systematic about it, change one map at a time to resolve it. But it's very annoying. The car comes on extremely hard (too hard for 25% throttle actually), so my first guess is the reduce IRL from 1000 to 3500 RPM Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: s5fourdoor on October 26, 2011, 10:38:04 AM sasha, holy crap man your tune might grace a 3.0 fats very soon. that is fantastic. f all the haters man, love it.
are you still running the 85mm + hitachi setup? could you possibly share your MAF related tables for the good of the community. I guess i was thinking MLHFM, but maybe also KFKHFM.... thanks bro, peace Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: NOTORIOUS VR on October 26, 2011, 10:58:27 AM yes that's the plan... I need to get this TQ exceeded thing sorted now... or at least find out why my car feels like it wants to make 600HP @ 25 % throttle all of a sudden after the last small changes.
Yes still running the 85mm Hitachi... Basically my goal is to make it as fast as possible on the current setup, and it's looking promising. No more boost, just tweaks to the ECU. I am using the MLHFM from Tonys Stg 3 file... it really is IMO a VERY good scaling, I tried the old calculate the stock 73mm MLHFM and crap... it down right sucks compared to Tony's scale. KFKHFM is set to 1.001 everywhere for now except for down low it's scaled back to 0.97 or so.... I haven't really played with it much. But thanks for the encouragement! :) Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: nyet on October 26, 2011, 11:36:43 AM I am using the MLHFM from Tonys Stg 3 file... it really is IMO a VERY good scaling, I tried the old Is his scaling not a constant %? What scaling did you try? Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: NOTORIOUS VR on October 26, 2011, 12:29:08 PM I don't know what his scaling is.. but it works great.
I tried Area, but I think I also tried Dia. although not 100% sure on that one. Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: berTTos on October 26, 2011, 01:00:08 PM yes that's the plan... I need to get this TQ exceeded thing sorted now... or at least find out why my car feels like it wants to make 600HP @ 25 % throttle all of a sudden after the last small changes. Yes still running the 85mm Hitachi... Basically my goal is to make it as fast as possible on the current setup, and it's looking promising. No more boost, just tweaks to the ECU. I am using the MLHFM from Tonys Stg 3 file... it really is IMO a VERY good scaling, I tried the old calculate the stock 73mm MLHFM and crap... it down right sucks compared to Tony's scale. KFKHFM is set to 1.001 everywhere for now except for down low it's scaled back to 0.97 or so.... I haven't really played with it much. But thanks for the encouragement! :) I was experiencing this same code on my aggressive file. Disable Torque Monitoring and it will cease. The throttle will be a bit sharper but it's not at all wild or unrefined. Here are the values required to deactivate Torque Monitoring (per the FR): Table KFMIZUOF = 99.6% for all base points Z - 11619 * 0.390625 X - 1008E * 40 Y - 1166D * 0.390625 Scalar TMNSMN = -48 C 11676 * 0.75 - 48 Scalar TANSMN = -48 C 11675 * 0.75 - 48 I attached a copy of Nye's mbox xdf w/ these params added to the Torque category Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: nyet on October 26, 2011, 01:04:48 PM Thanks bert, i will be adding that to both the wiki and the next map pack.
Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: NOTORIOUS VR on October 26, 2011, 01:25:22 PM Thanks berTTos, I want to try and avoid this at first and see if I can fix it without needing to disable anything. But I remember you posting this in your thread as well... :)
Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: judeisnotobscure on October 26, 2011, 03:30:35 PM how much of kfmirl and kfmiop are you changing? I found changing less yeilded better results... i don't change the entire map and i smooth the stock map into my changes.
Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: berTTos on October 26, 2011, 03:47:49 PM Thanks berTTos, I want to try and avoid this at first and see if I can fix it without needing to disable anything. But I remember you posting this in your thread as well... :) No problem - your logs look fantastic. Congrats on a tune well done so far! Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: nyet on October 26, 2011, 04:10:19 PM BTW Tony@EPL indicated mild torque intervention might be needed for very very big torque setups where the motor isn't built for it.
According to him, KR and extra fuel isn't always enough to limit cylinder pressures. Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: NOTORIOUS VR on October 26, 2011, 06:51:24 PM yes I am aware of that... as well...
btw I tried the following tonight: I tried lowering the values in IOP and load values in IRL with no success other them making the car less aggressive... This is interesting though... Jason @ AMD is pointing to something to do with the N249, but I'm not yet sure how it all comes together: http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php/421890-NOTORIOUS-VR-s-Stock-2.7T-TiAL-S605-Build?p=6977725&viewfull=1#post6977725 Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: NOTORIOUS VR on October 27, 2011, 10:07:34 AM ok so far the things I've tried haven't done squat...
can someone who knows ME7L quite well help me with what variables to log to see if we can get this figured out? Looking over the FR last night and the TQ model is very complicated and involves a lot of factors. Cheers! Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: nyet on October 27, 2011, 10:09:49 AM here is my progress
http://nefariousmotorsports.com/forum/index.php/topic,970.msg8735.html#msg8735 haven't had time to hit the dyno, so i never finished my investigation Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: NOTORIOUS VR on October 27, 2011, 10:30:18 AM I am going to go back to one of my earlier files to see if I can track down exactly what changed that caused me to get to the TQ limit problem.
I have a hunch it is when I changed the optimal ignition tables WOP and WOP2 (increasing them). Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: NOTORIOUS VR on October 27, 2011, 01:33:25 PM I've added the following to my cfg for ME7L, will that be enough to get some information that might be needed?
Code: ;Added timing variables Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: nyet on October 27, 2011, 01:45:50 PM wkrdy and dzwwl maybe
Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: NOTORIOUS VR on October 27, 2011, 02:00:35 PM done
Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: NOTORIOUS VR on October 27, 2011, 03:01:28 PM Put one of my older files in with just a few tweaks and the car drives normal again... Pretty certain at this point it was WOP and WOP2.
I'll get some logs this weekend of the other file to see if we can find out where/what is causing the TQ exceeded code and how to avoid/change it. Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: nyet on October 27, 2011, 03:09:59 PM also mizsol, miopt, and dmaufr
Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: judeisnotobscure on October 27, 2011, 04:24:58 PM Put one of my older files in with just a few tweaks and the car drives normal again... Pretty certain at this point it was WOP and WOP2. I have increased both of those maps substantially and never had a tq exceeded code. (several cars) I'll get some logs this weekend of the other file to see if we can find out where/what is causing the TQ exceeded code and how to avoid/change it. Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: phila_dot on October 27, 2011, 04:55:13 PM Put one of my older files in with just a few tweaks and the car drives normal again... Pretty certain at this point it was WOP and WOP2. I'll get some logs this weekend of the other file to see if we can find out where/what is causing the TQ exceeded code and how to avoid/change it. You increased KFZWOP? What is the logic in that? I think you need to look at MDFUE. I am not at my laptop right now, can we log misopl1_w? Edit: misopl1_w is defined in the config file. Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: berTTos on October 27, 2011, 05:08:55 PM i made an observation today on a 550mi road trip related to this Torque Monitoring2 - Control Limit Exceeded code.
i began the drive on my aggressive file with Torque Monitoring disabled and i have to say, i enjoyed the car much more this way. the throttle is sharp and i was able to pass with ~25% throttle in 6th without issue (with TM enabled this would sporadically cause the TM2-control limit exceeded code). this file is pretty well sorted by now and everything from idle to WOT to throttle lift off is pretty smooth BUT - i know i need some MAF correction for some low load areas where MAF is reading too low. i hit some traffic and had to slow down for some miles where i was cruising at very light load (10-25). when i resumed normal speed (and load) i could tell i was running way rich and the throttle was a little crazy. i pulled off and hooked up my netbook to check LTFTs which were +11% (!!!). they are normally -2% or so. i left the netbook hooked up and left 032, 033 and a group that shows load (dont recall #) and commenced normal 80mph cruise. load was 35-60 depending on incline and STFTs showed major trimming. STFTs stayed negative for quite a while and i watched LTFTs drop until they settled around -1%. LTFTs stayed here for over an hour while load was >35. this gave me the idea to load up my file with TM enabled so i pulled off and flashed it. when i kept load around 40+ my fuel trims were close to zero and i had no problems with TM related throttle-cut. if i slowed for a period and used light load this caused my trims to go way positive. if i then suddenly increased load (to pass in 6th gear with 25-40% throttle) - bam - throttle-cut + EPC light with the TM code. so - in my case - it seems that venturing into territory where MAF readings are accurate after lingering in a load area where they are low (which causes trims to go way positive) means too much fuel in the normal area and is related to exceeding Torque Control Limits. so - does this make sense? does anyone have any insight? i'm going to hook up the wideband and do MAF correction this weekend. Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: nyet on October 27, 2011, 06:00:42 PM *req* lambda definitely affects "actual" torque. Not sure if trims somehow go into this calculation.
Other than that, I have no clue what's going on :( Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: berTTos on October 27, 2011, 06:20:06 PM *req* lambda definitely affects "actual" torque. Not sure if trims somehow go into this calculation. Other than that, I have no clue what's going on :( i don't think trims are involved in the calcs but i do suspect that if trims are +11% when i dip into the throttle and increase load then actual lambda goes way lower than requested and this may influence the torque calculation. maybe? Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: phila_dot on October 27, 2011, 06:37:00 PM I'm pretty sure it is based off of lambas.
Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: nyet on October 27, 2011, 06:40:54 PM Oh, also, have you tried logging the appropriate torque values? i don't know them offhand.
Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: phila_dot on October 28, 2011, 12:23:34 PM i made an observation today on a 550mi road trip related to this Torque Monitoring2 - Control Limit Exceeded code. i began the drive on my aggressive file with Torque Monitoring disabled and i have to say, i enjoyed the car much more this way. the throttle is sharp and i was able to pass with ~25% throttle in 6th without issue (with TM enabled this would sporadically cause the TM2-control limit exceeded code). this file is pretty well sorted by now and everything from idle to WOT to throttle lift off is pretty smooth BUT - i know i need some MAF correction for some low load areas where MAF is reading too low. i hit some traffic and had to slow down for some miles where i was cruising at very light load (10-25). when i resumed normal speed (and load) i could tell i was running way rich and the throttle was a little crazy. i pulled off and hooked up my netbook to check LTFTs which were +11% (!!!). they are normally -2% or so. i left the netbook hooked up and left 032, 033 and a group that shows load (dont recall #) and commenced normal 80mph cruise. load was 35-60 depending on incline and STFTs showed major trimming. STFTs stayed negative for quite a while and i watched LTFTs drop until they settled around -1%. LTFTs stayed here for over an hour while load was >35. this gave me the idea to load up my file with TM enabled so i pulled off and flashed it. when i kept load around 40+ my fuel trims were close to zero and i had no problems with TM related throttle-cut. if i slowed for a period and used light load this caused my trims to go way positive. if i then suddenly increased load (to pass in 6th gear with 25-40% throttle) - bam - throttle-cut + EPC light with the TM code. so - in my case - it seems that venturing into territory where MAF readings are accurate after lingering in a load area where they are low (which causes trims to go way positive) means too much fuel in the normal area and is related to exceeding Torque Control Limits. so - does this make sense? does anyone have any insight? i'm going to hook up the wideband and do MAF correction this weekend. MDZUL states deactivation via KFMIZUOF can trigger a level 2 torque monitoring fault in UFMZUL and fuel switch off. Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: berTTos on October 28, 2011, 04:12:41 PM MDZUL states deactivation via KFMIZUOF can trigger a level 2 torque monitoring fault in UFMZUL and fuel switch off. i noticed this as well - though i struggled with the translation of the last part of the application note. here is my translation -- A total deactivation of the function by the map KFMIZUOF can be carried out (KFMIZUOF = 99,6% for all data points). A deactivation of the afterstart extension can be achieved by data input into the maps KFDMINS and KLDMKH. In this case the map KFDMINS is filled with 0. The temperature thresholds TMNSMN and TANSMN are set to -48C. Deactivation of the function %mdzul (Maximum allowable torque) while Torque Monitoring is active can result in a Level 2 Torque Monitoring response (%ufmzul) with the error response SKA (Safety fuel cut-off condition) i don't completely understand the last part and my german is not very good. it seems to state that if mdzul (which calculates maximum allowable torque) is disabled and Torque Monitoring is active - then a TM2 error may occur. this makes no sense to me. also - does the 2.7t have the maps KFDMINS and KLDMKH? Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: berTTos on October 28, 2011, 04:19:00 PM Oh, also, have you tried logging the appropriate torque values? i don't know them offhand. i haven't logged shit. i've been so crazy busy. hopefully i'll have some time this weekend. i'm planning on driving out to summit racing on saturday and my gf is going to help log MAF and fuel at various loads for MAF correction. i'll see if i can get motivated and configure ME7L tonight. i have a feeling my TM2 codes are related to lambda readings. the FR notes that lambda and ignition angle influences actual torque calculations. Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: nyet on October 28, 2011, 04:34:57 PM i have a feeling my TM2 codes are related to lambda readings. the FR notes that lambda and ignition angle influences actual torque calculations. I haven't checked the FR, but I dont' see any way it can know what the actual lambda is... it can only know req AFR.... Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: berTTos on October 28, 2011, 05:02:28 PM I haven't checked the FR, but I dont' see any way it can know what the actual lambda is... it can only know req AFR.... you are correct, sir - i should have said 'basic lambda' - lambas. Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: phila_dot on October 28, 2011, 06:11:14 PM berTTos, did you also increase KFZWOP?
I cannot find any benefit to increasing it. What are you guys seeing that I'm not? Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: berTTos on October 29, 2011, 02:52:12 AM berTTos, did you also increase KFZWOP? I cannot find any benefit to increasing it. What are you guys seeing that I'm not? i do have a file where i increased it in the low end as i had timing increases in the corresponding areas where KFZW values exceeded KFZWOP values. it made no difference either way for me as far as the TM2 code appearing. Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: judeisnotobscure on October 30, 2011, 08:32:41 PM I cannot find any benefit to increasing it. What are you guys seeing that I'm not? Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: phila_dot on October 31, 2011, 08:40:10 AM Wow, so your KFZW(2) values are meeting or exceeding the stock KFZWOP(2) values?
The only applications I see for KFZWOP(2)'s output is in various forms of intervention (torque, charge, lambda, and ignition angle). Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: judeisnotobscure on November 01, 2011, 03:21:25 AM going through this right now,
http://nefariousmotorsports.com/forum/index.php/topic,881.0.html but yes i've gone over kfzop values, though i'm not requesting 42*, seems that kfzwop is supplying those timing values while kfzw is saying 36. (http://i714.photobucket.com/albums/ww142/judeisnotobscure/timing.png) Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: NOTORIOUS VR on November 01, 2011, 10:10:53 AM The only applications I see for KFZWOP(2)'s output is in various forms of intervention (torque, charge, lambda, and ignition angle). Bingo Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: NOTORIOUS VR on November 18, 2011, 11:13:01 AM For the archives in relation to (possibly) http://nefariousmotorsports.com/forum/index.php/topic,617.msg10182.html#msg10182:
In properly operating boost system, DVs open immediately after the driver stops requesting boost by N249 switching on and connecting DV vacuum hose with vacuum reservoir. This forces vacuum into DV immediately and it purges charge. Vacuum reservoir is located behind check valve, this allows it to stay under vacuum even when manifold sees positive pressure. If you delete N249, you lose the ability to immediately purge DVs via N249 action and must wait until the manifold goes into vacuum all by itself which could take appreciable amount of time... or never if you just slightly let the gas pedal go. In such a case the desired boost might sit at 1000mbar while you're still kicking tires with 20 psi for a second or two before everything calms down. This in turn might cause the overboost condition if the vacuum doesn't kick in quick enough. KFDLULS defines maximum delta which is easy to exceed without properly operating N249 (or boost leak at DV). Playing with time tables for LDOB might make more sense. One table in particular is very popular with tuners for disabling overboost detection.... TLDOBAN. You zero that one out and it never goes into effect.... Overboost protection with anything larger than k04 is pointless anyway since you will be operating above MAP limit all the time hence the system doesn't work anymore... only gets in the way. Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: NOTORIOUS VR on April 01, 2012, 09:30:22 AM Well, time for a trusty update... been a long time since I've touched the tune on my car... it drove pretty good for the most part... but still nothing I was happy with, especially low to part throttle loads...
I decided to implement a range of new ideas from the tuning section (adaptive knock fueling, no catalyst heating, etc, etc). I also wanted to try masterj's latest .xls and see if I could get rid of the some the TQ management problems I've been feeling. I have to say, using the converters in there it developed numbers that looked smooth but they just don't work. I had half way decent low load cruise (better then before I must admit) and the aggressiveness was welcome (I used 10%), but under mid/part throttle (10-15 psi) I had massive oscillations in load/boost... much worse then I am ever used to feeling with stock TQ management settings. Under full throttle pulls it was even worse, the TQ management was not happy at all it was using ignition angle to reign in the load/TQ/whatever and the car felt horrible mid-pull. Only as the load got greater and slower (ie. higher gears) did the car smooth out. 2nd gear full throttle was even worse. I tried to make a few changes here and there that I thought might help (KFZWOP/2 adding and taking away, but it really didn't help and it was obvious the values were just not right). Logs of a 3rd gear pull, as you can see other then the TQ intervention the logs actually look quite good : (http://schnell-engineering.com/logs/wizzard_rev4/image001.png) (http://schnell-engineering.com/logs/wizzard_rev4/image002.png) (http://schnell-engineering.com/logs/wizzard_rev4/image003.png) (http://schnell-engineering.com/logs/wizzard_rev4/image004.png) (http://schnell-engineering.com/logs/wizzard_rev4/image005.png) (http://schnell-engineering.com/logs/wizzard_rev4/image006.png) (http://schnell-engineering.com/logs/wizzard_rev4/image007.png) (http://schnell-engineering.com/logs/wizzard_rev4/image008.png) (http://schnell-engineering.com/logs/wizzard_rev4/image009.png) (http://schnell-engineering.com/logs/wizzard_rev4/image010.png) (http://schnell-engineering.com/logs/wizzard_rev4/image011.png) (http://schnell-engineering.com/logs/wizzard_rev4/image012.png) (http://schnell-engineering.com/logs/wizzard_rev4/image013.png) (http://schnell-engineering.com/logs/wizzard_rev4/image014.png) (http://schnell-engineering.com/logs/wizzard_rev4/image015.png) (http://schnell-engineering.com/logs/wizzard_rev4/image016.png) (http://schnell-engineering.com/logs/wizzard_rev4/image017.png) Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: NOTORIOUS VR on April 01, 2012, 09:46:50 AM I then spent about an hour in a parking lot with what I thought to be a neat idea and test... copy over the tables from the RS4 box in regards to ONLY the TQ settings... KFWZOP/2, KFMIOP and IRL, and some others...
No other changes to the box... and what do you know, the car drives probably the BEST it has EVER driven... I mean it's so freaking smooth it's unbelievable... it's smooth everywhere... under a full throttle pull there are very minor TQ/ign angle changes but I'm sure a little tweaking will smooth them out. BUT... I am still under the belief that the TQ management is too subtle... it's not agressive enough for me... I've seen/felt what my car can really do if you trick the TQ management (last time I almost doubled the KFZWOP/2 tables and the car under full throttle pulled twice as hard, but would give me TQ mgmt exceeded codes under part thottle). I think what needs to be done here is focus on how we can best use the factory TQ settings and tweak them just enough to remain smooth but agressive, all while keeping the TQ mgmt happy. Logs from the RS4 box TQ management tune (rev_0): (http://schnell-engineering.com/logs/rs4TQ_rev0/image001.png) (http://schnell-engineering.com/logs/rs4TQ_rev0/image002.png) (http://schnell-engineering.com/logs/rs4TQ_rev0/image003.png) (http://schnell-engineering.com/logs/rs4TQ_rev0/image004.png) (http://schnell-engineering.com/logs/rs4TQ_rev0/image005.png) (http://schnell-engineering.com/logs/rs4TQ_rev0/image006.png) (http://schnell-engineering.com/logs/rs4TQ_rev0/image007.png) (http://schnell-engineering.com/logs/rs4TQ_rev0/image008.png) (http://schnell-engineering.com/logs/rs4TQ_rev0/image009.png) (http://schnell-engineering.com/logs/rs4TQ_rev0/image010.png) (http://schnell-engineering.com/logs/rs4TQ_rev0/image011.png) (http://schnell-engineering.com/logs/rs4TQ_rev0/image012.png) (http://schnell-engineering.com/logs/rs4TQ_rev0/image013.png) (http://schnell-engineering.com/logs/rs4TQ_rev0/image014.png) (http://schnell-engineering.com/logs/rs4TQ_rev0/image015.png) (http://schnell-engineering.com/logs/rs4TQ_rev0/image016.png) (http://schnell-engineering.com/logs/rs4TQ_rev0/image017.png) Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: nyet on April 01, 2012, 10:59:35 AM need more logs of the various torque management variables.
http://nefariousmotorsports.com/forum/index.php?topic=617.msg8221#msg8221 obviously bad timing oscillations: http://schnell-engineering.com/logs/wizzard_rev4/image005.png Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: NOTORIOUS VR on April 01, 2012, 11:55:26 AM need more logs of the various torque management variables. http://nefariousmotorsports.com/forum/index.php?topic=617.msg8221#msg8221 yeah.. I'm going to do that next... I really need to dive into me7l... I still haven't used it. Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: NOTORIOUS VR on April 01, 2012, 04:17:43 PM OK took some logs w/ ME7L, for some reason nmot (RPM) isn't correct... it's always around the same? I've attached a few to this post.
Also for some reason now I'm getting positive boot deviation code and my N75 is stock @ 10% no matter what I do... Any suggestions? Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: nyet on April 01, 2012, 04:35:32 PM fix rpm or we can't figure anything out.
re positive deviation: http://s4wiki.com/wiki/Tuning#Positive_deviation http://nefariousmotorsports.com/forum/index.php?topic=871.0 Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: NOTORIOUS VR on April 01, 2012, 04:46:54 PM fix rpm or we can't figure anything out. re positive deviation: http://s4wiki.com/wiki/Tuning#Positive_deviation http://nefariousmotorsports.com/forum/index.php?topic=871.0 Thanks, I'll underscale my MAF a bit and re-do LDRXN (I did bump it recently)... as for the RPM in ME7L I suppose I will have to post in the Datalogging section to see if anyone has an answer... Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: nyet on April 01, 2012, 04:58:28 PM Uh. Why are you using the 8 bit nmot?
You know there are only 256 possible 8 bit values, right? Use nmot_w :P Code: nmot_w , {EngineSpeed} , 0x00F87A, 2, 0x0000, {rpm} , 0, 0, 0.25, 0, {Motordrehzahl}Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: nyet on April 01, 2012, 05:02:12 PM Thanks, I'll underscale my MAF a bit and re-do LDRXN (I did bump it recently)... Make sure your peak LDRXN actually reflects what your turbos can do. Your spec load looks a bit... optimistic. Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: NOTORIOUS VR on April 01, 2012, 05:10:44 PM Uh. Why are you using the 8 bit nmot? You know there are only 256 possible 8 bit values, right? Use nmot_w :P Code: nmot_w , {EngineSpeed} , 0x00F87A, 2, 0x0000, {rpm} , 0, 0, 0.25, 0, {Motordrehzahl}Nope, didn't know... I started with the mark_p_typical.cfg.... but thanks, I'll change that. Also, would you have any idea why zwopt doesn't work? It says it cannot find it in the ECU if I leave it enabled? Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: s5fourdoor on April 01, 2012, 05:26:57 PM can you share the KFMIRL / KFMIOP / KFZWOP / KFZWOP tables you mentioned? i'm interested in how you did the interpolation / map transposition.
Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: NOTORIOUS VR on April 01, 2012, 06:54:04 PM can you share the KFMIRL / KFMIOP / KFZWOP / KFZWOP tables you mentioned? i'm interested in how you did the interpolation / map transposition. From which tune? My current or a specific one? Attached are some ME7L logs w/ my tune with a slightly underscaled MAF and more sane LDRXN values... no more pos. boost deviation (funny thing is, it seemed to be the MAF scaling alone causing it. Also with nmot variable fixed... maybe someone can have a look or at least show me what to do with them so I can see what the TQ management is doing at this time. Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: nyet on April 01, 2012, 08:40:12 PM From which tune? My current or a specific one? Attached are some ME7L logs w/ my tune with a slightly underscaled MAF and more sane LDRXN values... no more pos. boost deviation (funny thing is, it seemed to be the MAF scaling alone causing it. reread the s4wiki. The higher your MAF values, the earlier the pos deviation detection starts. Quote Also with nmot variable fixed... maybe someone can have a look or at least show me what to do with them so I can see what the TQ management is doing at this time. I dont see miist/misol intervention... (http://nyet.org/cars/logs/mark_p_style_20120401_21103-misol-miist.png) Notice miist stays well below misol... Now yours is doing the same as mine.. and i havent' figured out why on mine yet because I haven't logged wkrdy or krldy/zaldy READ THIS! http://nefariousmotorsports.com/forum/index.php?topic=970.msg8735#msg8735 and other info here: http://nefariousmotorsports.com/forum/index.php?topic=970.msg8758#msg8758 http://nefariousmotorsports.com/forum/index.php?topic=970.msg8923#msg8923 Now you need to log zwgru zwsol wkrdy B_krldya B_krldyv zaldy Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: NOTORIOUS VR on April 02, 2012, 05:57:02 AM reread the s4wiki. The higher your MAF values, the earlier the pos deviation detection starts. I did and I understand that, but I did both the MAF and LDRXN changes at once and when I switched back to the other MAF (only 10% more) I was a little surprised to see the pos. deviation come back. Quote I dont see miist/misol intervention... IMAGE Notice miist stays well below misol... Now yours is doing the same as mine.. and i havent' figured out why on mine yet because I haven't logged wkrdy or krldy/zaldy READ THIS! http://nefariousmotorsports.com/forum/index.php?topic=970.msg8735#msg8735 and other info here: http://nefariousmotorsports.com/forum/index.php?topic=970.msg8758#msg8758 http://nefariousmotorsports.com/forum/index.php?topic=970.msg8923#msg8923 Now you need to log zwgru zwsol wkrdy B_krldya B_krldyv zaldy I will absolutely log it then next chance I get... the car is already running much better now, thanks again for the help... Here is an ECUx log just for fun (done w/ the same tune I took the me7l logs with above just after that)... disregard the weirdness in the middle (around 4k), I lost traction over a bump or something. FWIW 20 psi comes in @ 4000 RPM in this run :) Also looking @ the logs... I seem to be flat lining the MAF, that means it's pretty much @ the end no? BTW this is max 24-25psi... guess it's time to upgrade! (http://schnell-engineering.com/logs/rs4TQ_rev5/image001.png) (http://schnell-engineering.com/logs/rs4TQ_rev5/image002.png) (http://schnell-engineering.com/logs/rs4TQ_rev5/image003.png) (http://schnell-engineering.com/logs/rs4TQ_rev5/image004.png) (http://schnell-engineering.com/logs/rs4TQ_rev5/image005.png) (http://schnell-engineering.com/logs/rs4TQ_rev5/image006.png) (http://schnell-engineering.com/logs/rs4TQ_rev5/image007.png) (http://schnell-engineering.com/logs/rs4TQ_rev5/image008.png) (http://schnell-engineering.com/logs/rs4TQ_rev5/image009.png) (http://schnell-engineering.com/logs/rs4TQ_rev5/image010.png) (http://schnell-engineering.com/logs/rs4TQ_rev5/image011.png) (http://schnell-engineering.com/logs/rs4TQ_rev5/image012.png) (http://schnell-engineering.com/logs/rs4TQ_rev5/image013.png) (http://schnell-engineering.com/logs/rs4TQ_rev5/image014.png) (http://schnell-engineering.com/logs/rs4TQ_rev5/image015.png) (http://schnell-engineering.com/logs/rs4TQ_rev5/image016.png) (http://schnell-engineering.com/logs/rs4TQ_rev5/image017.png) (http://schnell-engineering.com/logs/rs4TQ_rev5/image018.png) (http://schnell-engineering.com/logs/rs4TQ_rev5/image019.png) (http://schnell-engineering.com/logs/rs4TQ_rev5/image020.png) Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: nyet on April 02, 2012, 08:59:35 AM Also looking @ the logs... I seem to be flat lining the MAF, that means it's pretty much @ the end no? BTW this is max 24-25psi... guess it's time to upgrade! The 8 bit maximum is 364 ish, the 16 bit maximum is 499 (iirc) Which are you logging (like nmot_w, dont log the wrong one :P) Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: NOTORIOUS VR on April 02, 2012, 09:35:54 AM The 8 bit maximum is 364 ish, the 16 bit maximum is 499 (iirc) Which are you logging (like nmot_w, dont log the wrong one :P) I am logging the right one (this time lol)... but JFC, I can believe there are that many combinations lol. That said, I am maxing my MAF @ 5600 RPM my values (from ECUx) is 376 (x 3.6 = 1353.6), the last bin in MLHFM is: 1354.1... so I'm maxing the sensor in this housing (at the same time that happens my AFR's go whacky/rich). What I am really curious about is my load and the flat line/notch around 4k RPM... I don't see why the load is being limited like that... any ideas? (http://schnell-engineering.com/logs/rs4TQ_rev5/image018.png) Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: phila_dot on April 02, 2012, 12:00:46 PM Does the notch manifest in rlmax_w or rlsol_w?
If not, then it is likely resulting from %BGRSM pressure to load conversions. http://s4wiki.com/wiki/Tuning#Cam_changeover_effect_on_requested_boost Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: jibberjive on April 02, 2012, 10:00:46 PM Does the notch manifest in rlmax_w or rlsol_w? Any insight on how to modify those maps to smooth out the notch for a slightly laggier setup (my boost profile follows NVR's pretty closely)? I've played around with those maps a little, and nothing I did alleviated the notch.If not, then it is likely resulting from %BGRSM pressure to load conversions. http://s4wiki.com/wiki/Tuning#Cam_changeover_effect_on_requested_boost Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: nyet on April 02, 2012, 10:05:02 PM IIRC those do *not* affect actual load, only spec boost.
If you have a discontinuity in your actual load readings, i'd start with smoothing the various HFM maps. Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: jibberjive on April 02, 2012, 10:07:20 PM IIRC those do *not* affect actual load, only spec boost. I'll take some logs tonight and post in my build log here.If you have a discontinuity in your actual load readings, i'd start with smoothing the various HFM maps. Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: phila_dot on April 02, 2012, 11:55:25 PM IIRC those do *not* affect actual load, only spec boost. Those maps are directly used in the calculation of actual load rl_w. Any insight on how to modify those maps to smooth out the notch for a slightly laggier setup (my boost profile follows NVR's pretty closely)? I've played around with those maps a little, and nothing I did alleviated the notch. Unfortunately, none of the relevant variables are provided by ME7Info. I was falsely under the impression that B_nwvs was switched during cam changeover, but in fact it is set by SY_NWS > 0. This would not cause a hard switch. Try logging fnwue and see if it is related to the "notch". If so, KFPBRKNW may be the issue. Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: NOTORIOUS VR on April 03, 2012, 06:53:30 AM IIRC those do *not* affect actual load, only spec boost yes, you will notice on the last page my boost profile looked like this: (http://schnell-engineering.com/logs/wizzard_rev4/image001.png) and setting the cam profiles to all 1.00 gave me the smooth notch then like you see in the more recent logs above. Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: s5fourdoor on April 03, 2012, 08:09:09 AM have a feeling it's time for your pro-m setup....
Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: phila_dot on April 03, 2012, 08:34:21 AM yes, you will notice on the last page my boost profile looked like this: (http://schnell-engineering.com/logs/wizzard_rev4/image001.png) and setting the cam profiles to all 1.00 gave me the smooth notch then like you see in the more recent logs above. Can you post rl_w, rlmx_w, rlmax_w, and rlsol_w all from the same run? Set which map to all 1.00? Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: NOTORIOUS VR on April 03, 2012, 08:34:47 AM have a feeling it's time for your pro-m setup.... most defiantly, waiting on a quote from a buddy as we speak :) Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: nyet on April 03, 2012, 08:47:20 AM Those maps are directly used in the calculation of actual load rl_w. Yes, you're right, I was wrong :) Apologies. Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: NOTORIOUS VR on April 04, 2012, 09:42:24 PM So updates from tonight... no ME7L logs since the stupid thing wouldn't work with the additional parameters I was supposed to log... and I can't really make heads or tails of it when looking through ECUx Plot... so good old ECUx will have to do here:
This was a log just before final revision... the past few revisions I was hitting constant 3.1-3.2 FATS and always above .5 G.... The car is really starting to move now. Same boost as always (24-25 psi), still maxing out the MAF :( 20 psi by 3850 RPM (http://schnell-engineering.com/logs/rick_rev4/image001.jpg) (http://schnell-engineering.com/logs/rick_rev4/image002.jpg) (http://schnell-engineering.com/logs/rick_rev4/image003.jpg) (http://schnell-engineering.com/logs/rick_rev4/image004.jpg) (http://schnell-engineering.com/logs/rick_rev4/image005.jpg) (http://schnell-engineering.com/logs/rick_rev4/image006.jpg) (http://schnell-engineering.com/logs/rick_rev4/image007.jpg) (http://schnell-engineering.com/logs/rick_rev4/image008.jpg) (http://schnell-engineering.com/logs/rick_rev4/image009.jpg) (http://schnell-engineering.com/logs/rick_rev4/image010.jpg) (http://schnell-engineering.com/logs/rick_rev4/image011.jpg) (http://schnell-engineering.com/logs/rick_rev4/image012.jpg) (http://schnell-engineering.com/logs/rick_rev4/image013.jpg) (http://schnell-engineering.com/logs/rick_rev4/image014.jpg) Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: jibberjive on April 04, 2012, 09:56:54 PM Playing with the torque management and stuff, what have you found that is helping spool the soonest?
Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: nyet on April 04, 2012, 11:42:06 PM So updates from tonight... no ME7L logs since the stupid thing wouldn't work with the additional parameters I was supposed to log. Did you try a proper editor, or add a blank trailing line at the end of .ecu like I suggested? Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: nyet on April 04, 2012, 11:44:25 PM Playing with the torque management and stuff, what have you found that is helping spool the soonest? You guys keep insisting you can change spool characteristics by tweaking the torque management. You can't. The spool time at WOT will not be affected unless you are seeing throttle closure, WGDC being cut, or significant timing pull. Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: nyet on April 04, 2012, 11:46:13 PM Also, with that desired boost, you are definitely going to see positive deviation at some point.
Why is your LDRXN so agressive? Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: jibberjive on April 05, 2012, 12:53:17 AM You guys keep insisting you can change spool characteristics by tweaking the torque management. You can't. The spool time at WOT will not be affected unless you are seeing throttle closure, WGDC being cut, or significant timing pull. I made a reply about that in the tq thread, but I thought I had empirically seen spool differences by solely switching up the torque management. I've taken probably over 30 FATS pulls over the past couple of months, and I have seen differences. Looking at my past couple of revisions though, I think you may be right, and the spool differences may be attributed elsewhere. My throttle plate has also been logged and is constant, WGDC has been completely zero'd out for every pull, and timing has been logged and is similar (same timing tables). I'll have to analyze the logs more to see where to attribute the differences to, but the last A to B logs of this last file (the only file being torque management), upon further examination the spool wasn't as different as I had thought. It must have been some other changes I made along the way from the files from a while ago.Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: NOTORIOUS VR on April 05, 2012, 06:05:03 AM Playing with the torque management and stuff, what have you found that is helping spool the soonest? I agree w/ Nye that I haven't been able to see differences in spool... I'm generally always around 3800-4000 to see 20 psi (TB is always @ 100% long before then and WGDC is always the samea s it is locked)... that said, TQ management and the aggressiveness IMO still does play a role in accel. but my TQ mangement settings are pretty untouched, everything is S4 stuff just IOP and IRL are touched... and I'm running exactly what Rick said to do here: http://nefariousmotorsports.com/forum/index.php?topic=970.msg8609#msg8609 and http://nefariousmotorsports.com/forum/index.php?topic=970.msg8678#msg8678 Also Nye, my LDRXN is that aggressive because that is what Rick suggested to do... request as much load as possible down-low. I have no seen any boost deviation messages at this point. I will look into the editor thing later EDIT and that later is now... all I had to do was put a blank line @ the end... WTF, that would have been easily solved long time ago if that's all it took is to press ENTER after the last line. So there my editor doesn't suck :) Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: NOTORIOUS VR on April 05, 2012, 08:32:24 AM Let's have a vote shall we!
85mm Bosch MAF and sensor from a V8 and using fully defined transfer tables from the respective ECU, this setup should be more then I would even need on a stock 2.7 motor it seems (700+ bhp). or 85mm pipe w/ the P-mas HPX sensor and a generally very good MAF transfer function and the ability to ready far more air that I would ever need (good for 1000rwhp) Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: nyet on April 05, 2012, 09:00:41 AM Also Nye, my LDRXN is that aggressive because that is what Rick suggested to do... request as much load as possible down-low. That makes no sense, sorry :( Quote So there my editor doesn't suck :) No, actually, it does. You shouldn't need to add a BLANK line, you just need the LAST line to contain an EOL. Shitty DOS editors (like notepad) can't do that, and they only way they can be convinced to do it is by adding a completely blank line at the end of the file... which is (IMO) retarded Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: NOTORIOUS VR on April 05, 2012, 09:03:54 AM That makes no sense, sorry :( Well so far it hasn't cause me any issues having it this way :) Quote No, actually, it does. You shouldn't need to add a BLANK line, you just need the LAST line to contain an EOL. Shitty DOS editors (like notepad) can't do that, and they only way they can be convinced to do it is by adding a completely blank line at the end of the file... which is (IMO) retarded Well I'm not going to switch to a *nix OS just to use vi.... which I already despise enough when I have to use it when I'm SSH'd into a server, so pressing the Enter key @ the end of the line isn't a big deal to me :) Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: nyet on April 05, 2012, 09:17:26 AM Well so far it hasn't cause me any issues having it this way :) eventually, you will. I dont see a good reason for LDRXN to EVER request something your turbos simply can't do. Look at the RS4 LDRXN. Look where the peak is... Quote Well I'm not going to switch to a *nix OS just to use vi.... which I already despise enough when I have to use it when I'm SSH'd into a server, so pressing the Enter key @ the end of the line isn't a big deal to me :) You dont need a different OS to use a decent editor :) Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: NOTORIOUS VR on April 09, 2012, 09:57:26 AM Tuning will be put on hold until I resolve my slipping clutch issue with Southbend...
results from the 1/4 track on Friday... 12.1 @ 118 mph... highest MPH 118.4 Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: NOTORIOUS VR on April 13, 2012, 02:04:15 PM Ordered the HPX today :)
now I'm on the hunt for a 3 BAR FPR Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: s5fourdoor on April 13, 2012, 02:30:43 PM nvr, why 3-bar? better pulsewidth variance control at lower pressure?
Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: jibberjive on April 13, 2012, 03:54:42 PM Same question, why do you want to go 3-bar?
Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: NOTORIOUS VR on April 13, 2012, 04:27:39 PM Less stress on the pump and the pump flows more @ lower rail pressures... w/ my 1000cc's (@ 3 bar) they will supply more then enough for anything I would ever throw at it even E85... with the 4 BAR they're approx 1180 cc... unnecessary.
Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: jibberjive on April 13, 2012, 04:48:45 PM You're running an 044, there should be zero reliability concerns (differences) between 3 and 4 bar for that pump, and higher pressures have some great benefits as well. I may creep my base pressure up to 6-bar with my dual 044's eventually. If you've got the pump (and you do), I'd personally run 4 bar over 3 for sure (and no idling issues either with 4-bar on the 1000cc EV14's, as I can attest to).
Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: NOTORIOUS VR on April 13, 2012, 04:54:53 PM I don't see any benefits to running a 4 BAR over 3 BAR with my injectors to be honest.
Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: jibberjive on April 13, 2012, 05:37:43 PM Great atomization benefits with these saturated type injectors. If you haven't already seen it, this video illustrates it pretty well.
http://youtu.be/oK2LGTPw2ls Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: NOTORIOUS VR on April 13, 2012, 07:04:03 PM Great atomization benefits with these saturated type injectors. If you haven't already seen it, this video illustrates it pretty well. http://youtu.be/oK2LGTPw2ls thanks for that video.. I had no idea the atomization was that profound.... You have persuaded me to keep the 4 BAR :) Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: NOTORIOUS VR on April 15, 2012, 10:38:32 AM looks like the next plan is to move to an ME 7.1.1 ECU and wire harness from a BEL engined car
Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: jibberjive on April 16, 2012, 08:16:12 PM Did I miss out on a discovery? Why are you going to run the BEL harness?
Edit: Check that, just read the tuning section after being gone for a couple of days. Could be pretty cool! Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: NOTORIOUS VR on May 01, 2012, 06:28:28 AM Well this journey/project has officially come to an end for me.
The car was stolen/recovered and written off by insurance due to irreparable damage. Was fun while it lasted though! Thanks to all that helped along the way, it was much fun to learn this way and while I won't have my own 2.7T I might start to dabble in other things depending on the next car I get. Cheers! Title: Re: My Tial 605 Tune Thread Post by: Vitruvian Engineering on May 01, 2012, 07:01:07 AM Dude... can't believe it. Are you going to buy it back for the performance parts? What did you get for a payout? Curious because I've obviously also got a lot in mods, you can PM if you don't care to post publicly. Got any idea for next car?
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