NefMoto

 ???

http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php/662244-Single-turbo-tacho-video-0-240?p=10947076&viewfull=1#post10947076

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vM1HHOlo4Vk
100-200 4,9

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q5xrZ_xqVxY
100-200 4,9

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4RNsVkUWFnk
1100hp/1200nm stock ecu

sarcasm...

100% Ethanol most likely...

missed gear change , drivers making the car slow not ecu....

Define fast, I wouldn't agree with that statement at all. There's plenty of fast motoronic cars.

still waiting for NVR's opinion. I mean he is a mod here.

As for me, I dont agree with the statement.

OK I'll bite :)

Up until recently (maybe even still/currently) IMO the way ME was being tuned was not allowing the full potential of the cars....

Still to this day, there hasn't been faster B5 S4's than the ones running on standalone.

Most standalone cars seem to go faster with less/equal parts (ie. Sherrif's car)

My friends 2.7T w/ VEMS on both K03 and China K04's was stronger then almost any other B5 S4 stg3 or otherwise I've ever been in.

Don't get me wrong... ME cars show "power" on a dyno... they just don't seem to perform up to the numbers most of the time.

Are we talking about his post on AZ years ago?

lol.

he has been telling people on AZ for a while that ME7 is too haaaard. lol i guess its good in a way, I just laugh every time.

Going to need more than that. What, EXACTLY makes this magical standalone so fast?

If you can't answer, no amount of dyno handwaving bullshit means anything.

I don't know what it is... I'm going to guess TQ management maybe....

FYI, there seems to be a similar trend of this happening with BMW 335's on stock ECU's... single turbos, etc... all making 600-700whp... all translate to crappy real world performance vs their measured power output.  Is it the same thing?  Not sure.  But it's another example I can come up with.

You can see based on my examples what I think it is... would be other factors, who knows.

Fact is, GURU's trap speeds (and 1320 times for that matter) on 93 octane pump fuel (no meth) haven't been matched as of yet with a car running Motronic.  Sherif's car was also trapping higher than most other cars with similar hardware.  Both cars are/were on full standalone ECU's, both cars running just pump gas.

I know SnowTroopers car is fast, it also has awesome stuff in it and an awesome turbo.  Not everyone can build a fast car, nor can everyone drive a fast car fast.

There are however plenty of high HP B5 S4 littered over the internet, could it be that every single one of them is an absolutely horrible driver to be missing so much off the fastest cars?  Possible maybe... but doubtful IMO.

So uh, timing? Really? That's it? Just timing?

You want timing, turn off KR.

Sorry, this is all bullshit until somebody posts something real, not internet dick waving.

Unfortunately, nobody seems to want to post logs, just non-stop bullshit.

If you can't quantify the gains with actual data and objective facts, stop claiming.

Bottom line, this is a bullshit question to start with.

If all you want is a car that can only go really "fast" on race gas (or e85) rowing through 3 or 4 gears WOT, then all you need is a basic standalone ECU with what, a dozen maps?

Any dipshit can tune that; you just need solid supporting hardware, which is why it is a popular route.

Tired of it; it is a waste of time debating this shit, because it invariably centers around arguments made by complete idiots.

I have no need to quantify anything... But since you're so hot to call BS, why don'y you show me an real deal, fast ME7 tuned S4 with all the bullshit on?  No TQ management off, no hacks...

I'm not pressing my beliefs on to anyone... you can disagree with me, you can choose not to believe me... I don't really care.

Stand alone cars are often "loose" in the sense they don't freak out at the slightest offset from requested or expected. They will run over boost and ride knock if that is how you tune it and be fast, usually and put up solid numbers. Me7 can do this to with things numbed.

Motronic in general has so many limiters when you get down to it, which is great for oem, bad for building fast and powerful cars that run through the gears. You don't need to just turn them off, almost everything is able to be massaged to work how you want.

I'm fully aware of how and why it's probably happening :)  

Of course it all comes back to everyone who is tuning these ME boxes are just modifying the bare necessities to actually get their desired outcome... Not one person here is actually able to completely reprogram a Motronic box accounting truly for all the hardware changes and the DESIRED application which differs greatly from the OEM calibration of the VAG engineers of EMISSIONS > SAFETY > DRIVEABILITY.

In the end everyone is just finding ways to best deal with ME's grip on power control and to minimize it's effect/changes on the fast and slow paths.

I think everyone is able to. All the info is on this forum alone. You don't really have to reprogram anything. Having some extra code like als/nls/map switching is cool but not actually needed to make the car feel and perform like a standalone car.

Maybe now... maybe.

Maybe one day we will see a 700-800awhp ME7 powered S4 that goes fast :)

All I know is if/when I build another one, it will not be running under Motronic  ;D

Meh why bother if it requires race gas or E85?

If everyone thought like that everyone would still be on K03's...

Pump gas sucks balls period... Unfortunately people have very unrealistic expectations these days of what can happen on pump gas just because someone else on the internet did it.

Sure with an extremely well flowing setup you have a much higher ceiling even on pump, but you're still always going to have the limitation from that fuel.

almost always takes race gas of some sort.

i have what I am pretty confident is the one of if not the highest powered 2.7t on california 91 and it is still disappointing on my hardware. the second i put in something that allows more boost and timing i pick up hundreds of whp. 91 octane is what it is. that said i can still get a lot out of it on 91 at 30 psi.

That's because you have a nice setup... you're not trying to get the impossible with crappy 2.8 cast manifolds that the masses just eat up  :D

Only a complete idiot can't get more power out of K04s than K03s on pump. But yea, true for any turbos much bigger than K04s.


Absolutely true.

I STILL don't know what you're talking about. I PERSONALLY built an 03 RS6 that has over 650 whp. We did the manual transmission conversion to it, the water methanol kit,  the center diff upgrade, and a bunch of other stuff. It looks like it came from the factory a manual, we made a new carbon fiber surround for the shifter and everything. I can't lay claim to the tune it was done by a guy here in Woodinville Washington who is apparently a pretty awesome tuner. I'm not sure what he had to do, at the time nobody else managed to do it without a check engine light because it was looking for the TCM. I think he uploaded an S6 tune to it or an A6 tune, and then modified it from there because the RS6 file will not let you code it as manual even though it provides coding info in VCDS to do it. We also had to run some wires to the ABS module I think because the TCM normally supplied the VS signal or the load signal on the auto cars. It was years ago. Anyway, it has a shit ton of power, granted it has 2 more cylinders. But here's the thing, you can put your grandma or wife in it, and you know that it's not going to get squirrely and built 30 hp from a normal throttle application.

The Honda guys do what you're talking about, they take their ECM in a late 90s Civic, and then they turn off absolutely everything so it's controlling air and fuel using basically just the crank and cam sensors, the map, and the coolant temp sensor. They don't run knock sensors, they don't even run an O2 (granted their factory narrowband wouldn't do shit), And then they go build tons of power. And nearly every single person I know that has done that ends up blowing their motor up if they daily drive it. And some of them blow it up even only weekend driving it once and a while. I'm not sure why they don't at least run an Innovate WB with the simulated narrowband output so that it tricks the car into thinking it's .75 v when it's at whatever proper AF ratio you want to run under power. I'd at the least be doing that.

We all know that when you start getting up above a certain amount of hp that the factory knock management, torque limiters, traction control, etc start to get in the way, especially when you're running upgraded engine mounts as a near necessity, and you're on a stiff suspension, the factory strategy wasn't made for it and doesn't know what to do, the knock sensors freak the fuck out.

The people modding other brands of the same era don't have as much to lose, they don't have traction control, their cars don't supply signals to the airbag module to aid in the airbag strategy, and frankly their factory management is inferior in the first place. They don't really have a choice, they have to disable everything to even make the power we can make with no hardware upgrades, they have to sleeve the block on some of them. So their choice is made easy, the car isn't going to be driveable in a tame manner, it's barely going to be streetable, and they go standalone.

The vast majority of the vehicles I built were people who wanted power, but wanted to drive it a few times a week at the least, or daily driveable power. And, I live in Seattle, which due to being next to the mountains has unpredictable weather. People know it rains here, but they don't often realize that we can go from sunny not a cloud in the sky, with no prediction of rain, and 15 minutes later the darkest clouds you've seen rolling in, and a rain and hailstorm, and then back to blue skies an hour later.

Even a 500 whp S4 starts to be an issue daily driving with our terrain and weather. We can drive them with traction control on, and driving them normally, but trying to get on it will break all 4 wheels loose even with good tires. Much over that and you can't drive the car 9 months out of the year, our tracks aren't even open much more than 4 or 5 months. I think they're opening now, around May/June and close in November, but many of the test and tunes and races after August get cancelled from rain.

But our cars are still easily street driven at 500, 600 whp, and my friends that have Hondas or other cars with that much power just aren't. Firstly they aren't AWD, but even when you compare a GTI/Jetta to a Honda, the VWs drive FAR better on the street.

I see you saying that there's no fast ME7 cars that drive well, and I understand you're talking about making maximum power through all gears, but I've yet to ride in a standalone car of any kind that drives well as in, is easy to drive on the street, and doesn't make my kids sick from all the jerking around.

They aren't drag race cars, they're autobahn cruisers, they're meant to be fast and refined/comfortable and I think the majority of the tuners and modifiers out there have the same type of attitude towards them. Even a 450 to 500 WHP Mk4 or B5 car will walk on 99% of the cars on the road. I'm not willing to trade the ability to throw my wife the keys so she can take it to the store and not worrying that she'll torque steer into a telephone pole, to make an extra amount of power that'll I'll likely never need in a light to light race against a random car, or some hwy fun. I WANT my airbag module to get the proper torque signals so it doesn't blow the second stage of the airbag and break my face, and so the auto tensioning pyrotechnic belts work. I want the car to still pass emissions so that I don't have an impossible time selling it if I need or want to. And lastly, I don't want to worry about blowing my motor up. I can shift the timing window so I run water/meth, and it will run full timing, but if I run out and I'm 100 miles from home I can get home with my 10 degree or more window of timing pull on 91 octane and still get on it. I like that when the ambient conditions support it, the car automatically increases the power to compensate for the ability to add more timing.

You're confusing can't with don't want to I think. It's just a different mindset. Go faster, but lose so much street driveability, reliability, emissions, and safety wise. Or go stand alone and get more power, but lose traction control, proper ABS function, proper TCM function if you're auto, proper airbag function, and the smoothness needed in city driving.

I don't see how one can get more power with standalone than with ME7 (assuming the tuner has the knowledge). You can numb/eliminate what you need to circumvent whatever is holding you back. I'm also fairly sure the original point was the ME7 cars make power when measured on a dyno, but fall short when it comes to real-world performance on a road course/dragstrip. This thread is also quite old, so maybe some of the original people in the thread have something to add? I think it's an interesting topic.

I think by now everyone knows enough about ME7 to get whatever they want out of it. ST certainly always has known.

Dumb thread, IMO

More bullshit from AZ leaking into the real world and making people stupid.

Everything you don't need in a Motronic can be turned off.
Standalone ecu is just easy way out if you can't get the Motronic working right.
Often it is a lot faster to get it done with standalone..

I run  9 sec FWD 4 cilinder on Motronic..

Wow you guys are still yapping about a post made 2 years ago, and on top of that this troll thread?

In the past there was a point where the majority of ME cars just weren't fast... that is a fact.  They made numbers, but never translated on the street.

Regardless of what one thinks, there is a difference between making a pull on the dyno in a single gear and racing.

Apparently it's more important to talk shit about posts on other forums and believe there is no point to do something unless you need to use anything else except pump gas.

Having a bad Monday?  :)

Well it is Monday, and it's dark/rainy out... so maybe  :D

Bottom line, there are some things that are harder to do in ME than standalone.

It doesn't mean it is impossible.

Still, the AZ criterion of "Motronic based cars are slow, so Motronic sucks" is moronic.

interesting reading anyway :) I liked this thread :)  (I am a disable everything guy.. for my own cars) There should be a thread on how to make an Me7 really stupid and simple... Just ignition and fuel kinda thing..

Let be totally honest here, everything is harder to do in ME vs. standalone.

The plain fact is engines will run on absurdly bad programming and inputs quite easily unless you're totally off.  Not saying that it's good but I've seen it many times in the past where someone gets their car tuned and it runs, heck it even makes power, but it doesn't drive properly at all.

At the end of the day, ME has a larger hold on the power output than most will ever know or admit.  Of course it's not IMPOSSIBLE, but at the end of the day not many understand exactly how deep the reach is for even the most basic control principals.  90% of "tuners" simply manipulate the ECU just enough to keep it happy for what it expects to see from it's 1000's of parameters programmed by Audi/Bosch for a docile every smooth car with a warranty since that is the easiest route to take.

A car running standalone vs a car with an ME tuned like described above will drive, and feel completely different even though they could make roughly the same power on a dyno.

For 99.99999% of hardware setups this is plainly not true.

There are literally only 3 things

fuel
timing
boost

Getting ME7 to do any of those the way you want to is not a problem until you run into MAF/load limits.


I have yet to drive standalone car that didn't have pure shit part throttle.

"But it is a track car" people say. Drag strip, or TRACK car?

Because even a track car has to be controllable part throttle, even in an AWD car, or you are just killing tires.

Other than the processing speed of the ECM. I think a LARGE part of the reason cars are putting more power out now is how fast they can monitor sensors. I think I saw ME5 monitors the O2 10 times a second, ME7 does it 100 times per second, it allows you to push things a little further without having to worry about a condition that can cause engine failure without the ECM catching it.

And that's what my very long, very rambling post was about. You CANNOT get the throttle control from standalone you can get from a the ME7 without tons of background logic they just don't build into them because track guys don't need them. You'll NEVER build even a 450 hp car on stand alone you'd feel comfortable putting your grandma behind the wheel of and sending her to the store, period.

NOW, I did find something interesting. Anybody ever hear of these guys?

http://pi-innovo.com/openecu-module-comparison/

They make ECMs that are designed with rapid implementation in mind. They use a very easy to use interface. Their controllers can be used to control nearly anything from DSG trans, or even using solenoids to make a standard mt an AMT. 

They've been around 20 years, I ran across them looking for hybrid motor controllers, and found they had done a very interesting project in conjunction with some UK companies to take and replace the factory Bosch management because they didn't want to hack it, and they put their ECM in the car, changed the hybrid strategy, and reduced CO2 emissions 40% over the emissions drive cycle, and fuel economy went from 42 mpg, to 64. I always fealt that the VW hybrids got garbage fueling...not sure what changes they made, but PI Innovo's software meets all federal and world wide environmental standards.

They support can and linbus, they have built in OBD2 and diagnostic ability.

I wouldn't even call them stand alone, they're open source OEM. They have worked with Landrover, Range Rover, and currently make the Mk2 City Golf ECM for VW in Africa. Cool stuff.

https://connect.innovateuk.org/documents/3030546/3708203/H4V_OVERVIEW_FV_DPCHARTERS.pdf/e8018002-9c94-4ecd-b187-f4ac41135c8d

The ME5 series had ONE 16 mhz processor, so could do 16 million computations per second, and sampled the O2 10 times per second ( I can no longer confirm but believe I was taught in VW tech training)

Our Me7 ECM is a 32 bit system from 2 16 bit chips running at variable clock speed from 33 to 43 but the official speed is 25 hz, and looks at the O2 sensor 100 times per second, doing total of about 25 million computations per second up to 43 mhz.

The C167CR processor is listed at the lower end of processors on Infineon sites, it was specified for like ABS modules actually, but MOST of the better chips don't fit this socket. It looks like there WOULD be an upgrade but only to like 40 HZ.

Pi-Innovo's M670 runs at 256 mhz, it has a sample resolution of up to .001 Seconds. You can literally check the O2 and knock sensors 1000 times a second. Makes me wonder if you could even use standard narrowbands since the resolution is enough to check the frequency so much. Regardless the Pi Innovo stuff seems pretty great, easy to use, and it probably costs less than Maestro does  ;D

They support direct injection, automatic manuals like the DSG, and much more. It's basically big enough you could run an ABS system off of it too.

This WOULD be a serious upgrade, something that can monitor the knock sensors, maf, O2, AND uses factory strategies like ME7 or something? Plus it passes readiness and stuff, would be basically undetectable even in Cali.

For example, and I've gotten a lot of shit for this but I don't care, it's tested. I have an engine builder who makes like, streetrod engines for 30 grand, does Viper engines, lots of race shit, and he told me to lean it out to 13 on my sisters mk4 GLI 1.8t which ALREADY had the APR stage 2 tune and it RAPES it. I don't have figures YET I'm doing the breather system then Im going to dyno it with the stock, APR 1 and 2, GIAC, and other tunes I've backed up to check mine against them.

I would never tune a customer car that lean, it's pushing the limits and has very little safety cushion. But if I have to drive through death valley and it pings I'd flash it, so it doesn't scare me. I ALSO bump the timing so that it's pretty much always pulling 5 -7 degrees of timing without detonation, I've shifted the octane requirements so that now I could run 96 or 99 octane it would adjust automatically, 91 is now like running 87 from the factory.

The resolution isn't enough in the ME7 ECM though and I've HEARD detonation while the ecm sees none. With the PI Innovo even you could even change the trigger signal from the knock sensors that initiates timing retard and all that good stuff.

Getting mounts, or other vibration on a heavily modded car could be easily tuned around. The limitation I think we face is the processor speed and thus the proper or BETTER resolution from the sensors. The resolution you could get from 25 BILLION computations per second would allow the diagnostic programming to pick up on misfires better and faster because a better waveform to analyze, likewise a maf that isn't reading right, or when you get a detonation or hickup the better signal res could even help you sense detonations that way.

This shit looks pretty awesome, I'm stoked that it does FSI and stuff as well, with fuel boost circuits, quad VVT control, and much others. I BELIEVE it says you get unlimited phone support too.

I looked at some stand alones. AEM EMS-4 is like a 32 bit 50 Hz processor, and their BEST kits are 200 or so. Megasquirt's NEWEST kit is only 16 bit. Haltech doesn't easily display the exact speeds but from looking at their quoted speed for sensor resolution it looks to be about 50 hz for the cheapest ones, up to 200 hz.

So it appears processor speed IS really important, and the factory setup is at least partially limited from that. I mean, think about it, the goal is to burn as lean as possible, since lean is fast, while also keeping the cylinder and EGT temps in check. And ideally if our computers are good enough, then you stay at the EXACT border of that threshold. IF you can't check the sensors enough you can't do that, then you risk crossing that threshold faster than the ecm knows and corrects. I mean, ideally if you could run it so that the temps get a little higher than you'd like for a nanosecond then pull it back to cool it slightly, you'd be golden.

Only the highest end stand alones for 2k or 3k do that while also having torque management profiles, obd, etc. I think Pi- Innovo is going to be way cheaper and more intelligent, it clearly works if they're doing things for busses, oems, etc. Their ecms are priced at OEM price level, I can't imagine it being any more than a grand for the highest level. As the site shows it requires some knowledge. I'm interested.

It's a really BAD idea, read my couple posts. The Honda guys do that and blow shit all the time. A quick sum up, lean is power, ideally lean and max ignition timing right up to just before detonation, and EGT/valve temps acceptible.

Removing the safeguards essentially means you can't push the tune to the limit, because you could blow up before the ECM notices knock. IF you have different motor mounts the knock sensor signal may even be so different the ECM doesn't recognize it as knock. IF your breather system and your MAF are correct, you can push the limits much further. For example a 1.8t won't pull much or any timing on 91 octane, but if you read the pull in value block 21 with VCDS it will pull 3 - 5 degrees timing to correct. My tunes pull 3 - 5 on 91 or 92 octane. But when the ambient temp and humidity are right, or I add octane, it automatically increases power.

If I were to remove the knock sensing, I'd never be able to do that because it would detonate all the time. I have about 20k miles on my tune like that, no issues, at a MAX of 13:1 AFR under full boost 100% load or whatever, and I'm running 13.5:1 or 14:1 at 65%, 75% load from 2500 to redline.

If I turned anything off, I'd be fucked. And it makes a LOT more power. IF your MAF doesn't read right, and your car isn't on point it won't run it. These are the reasons why companies like APR are known for weak tunes. I have the Alientech Setup, the legit. And I know guys who are the tuners for C2, APR, JHM, and Addict Motorsport here in Washington, and the remote tuners ALL have told me they can't push it further because the tunes wouldn't run on some cars. Addict related that he also fixes EVERYTHING wrong first.

I can't even put my tune on 5% of the cars I try it on, if the breather or maf are fucked,there's oil up under the intake and stuff, I put it on and it's the exact same. Then they fix that crap and it hauls. The tuners don't want that bad PR," Now they say I need $600 in breather stuff and a maf, fuck them!" etc.

The whole tuning stages thing is kinda bunk and imho to sell parts. I've taken a backed up APR stage 2+ from my car and put it on a STOCK 1.8t, and it runs FINE, and honestly isn't as much less hp as the car with the downpipe and stuff too...

If you have to turn shit off your car isn't right. Maf reading should be 3.5 grams per second at idle and when sitting still at 2000 rpms should be about 10.5 or 11%. If you're at 2.5% and 7% the maf is bad (or the breather has internal vacuum leaks sucking from the intake boot, or the valvecover, or the block....

really funny last few posts here... ME5 does not exist and has never existed. Knowing exactly what you're talking about is really important, before you start dumping a complete logorrhoea that hundreds of n00bz will be reading and taking for absolute truth.

 :P m3.83, m5.92
M= Motronic
E= Electric pedal control
...
 :P

I didn't bother putting in the exact ECM number big whoop. Point was that we've gone from 8bit in digifant, to 16bit in the mk3 ECM, and the Audi throttle cable ECM
And now we have 32 in the mk4.

Point is processor speed DOES matter. The rest of the info is valid.

Friends I was reading and I am impress of the amount of knowledge many people have. From my point of view we are controlling an analog system (engine, gearbox, etc....) with a digital system (ECU, TCU, etc....), so processing speed is important , but how the analog system reacts to the digital one is what really matters. Then a "sufficient capable ECU" can control an engine, gearbox, etc... in terms of how many variables it can act to obtain the desired "control". So the main difference between OEM vs Standalone ECUs is just how much knowledge we have about it. This discussion remembers me CISC vs RISC computational systems in the past. As a simple novice is just my point of view.

Kind of. Like I wrote you basically gain no advantage unless you spend the big money for the higher processor speed.

And the ECM gets analog signals from sensors too.

But as I was saying, the more you can push the file ignition timing and learning the fuel out to the threshold of cylinder temp or egt being out if wack and no detonation, the better.

Because of the slower processor speed you can't do that because it doesn't sense detonation fast enough. As we increase the processor speed to 256khz you're now doing 25,600,000,000 computations per second instead of 25,000,000. It means you can push the shit out of it. The 2.0t runs like 16:1 at hwy cruise.

The systems with processor speeds fast enough to justify the upgrade are thousands of dollars.

Me7 does good enough for me.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

You probably shouldn't talk about that when you don't know difference between mhz and khz...

Also, processor speed has not mattered for knock detection for about 20 years now, due to how the algorithm works and how the integration is done over the signal in a separate DSP.
It baffles me how someone can type up so much bullshit without having any actual idea how things work.

Coming from the guy who essentially claims that motronic can sense knock as well as a modern Tricor ECM?

I gotta go, I'm trying to get in contact with the engineers at TI and tell them not to bother with this since it's not a problem and there's no gains to be had trying to reduce the load on the IC.

If you read up further you'll see I quoted the correct 256mhz speed when talking about the Pi Innovo products.

Coming from the guy who essentially claims that motronic can sense knock as well as a modern Tricore ECM? There's absolutely gains to be had. The faster you can sample the more aggressively you can push it and know the safety systems can handle it.

Processor speed matters, PERIOD.

I gotta go, I'm trying to get in contact with the engineers at TI and tell them not to bother with this since it's not a problem, PRJ on Nefmoto says there's  plenty of power and there's no gains to be had trying to reduce the load on the IC.

Meh, my ME7.1.1 V8 S4 Cabrio is pretty fast on the stock ECU...

Then again, Black Betty was definitely fast on her old M3.8 AEB prehistoic ECU.

Here, watch my unassuming German 4 Door 1998 Passat go from 130-200 km/hr in 7 seconds flat lol...

https://www.youtube.com/edit?o=U&video_id=tBaXM5Fxg8k

Standalone can work and drive very well if tuned properly fwiw. I have two standalone cars that drive like oem with triple and quadruple the power output of the stock vehicle. I chose standalone because their factory ecu is ancient. Would I put standalone in my ME7 cars, I don't think so.

Of course most of what is being said in here is nonsense.

Talking about processor speeds, and all kinda of crap shows that some have no idea what they're talking about. None of that is an issue on anything from this century, processor speeds mean little to nothing.

Why someone would think that you cannot drive a car with a standalone normally (grandma argument) is laughable, same goes for part load driving that nye is talking about.  I mean come on.  Just because you haven't seen it done, doesn't mean it cannot be done and I don't see what one has to do with another.

You can tune a standalone car to drive just as smoothly as an ME7 or any OEM ECU car out there.  If you say otherwise you're just wrong.

Just as you "can" tune an ME7 car to be just as "fast" as a standalone car. Doesn't mean anything if 99% of the people posting opinions on the internet can't do it.

but ... but ... the guy has been an expert on an internet site so how dare you question him ;D

Instead of talking about processor performance, sampling rates, etc. why not discuss the real issue.

1) boost
2) fuel
3) timing

Which of the three is making your standalone system "faster"?

Boost. Make sure you aren't over your pressure sensor, manifold pressure, and load limits.

If you can't because you are running 40psi, fine, go standalone.

Fuel. Nothing in ME prevents you from running whatever fueling strategy you like. If anything, it is more flexible than just about any standalone system.

Timing. Yes, ME has a ton of torque intervention systems, but imo, all of them are easily fixed such that ME will not intervene DURING WOT, which is all you really care about, because you still want all of the intervention there for part throttle.

The only exception is KR, which you can also easily detune (or even disable) in ME. However, doing so without detcans is really really dumb idea - something you'll need anyway if you go standalone and want to do KR.

Not that I'm surprised by your one sided views, but if you can't understand what I'm trying to say here then I don't even know why we're talking.

Nothing these days prevents someone from running ME and raising the limits or disabling parts of the ECU's load/intervention to a point where ME is neutered and not going to intervene, we all know that.  If you're going to do that you have ZERO advantages to having ME from a perspective of tuning and everything to gain from going to a standalone ECU.

We can all talk about this till we're blue in the face, and I have already said that currently there is nothing to prevent you from making power or going fast w/ ME at this point.  We can easily look to the unicorn Hannover S4 for that proof if you like.  Doesn't change the fact that almost EVERY other really fast S4 is/was running a standalone and not ME.

Maybe only 2-3 tuners in the world can make an S4 fast on ME.  Maybe your perception of power and fast is different from everyone else. Maybe this, maybe that...

We've seen plenty of S4's tuned some way or another on ME making 700-1000 hp over the years... rarely does it translate on the track, maybe I'm mistaken and maybe just maybe every guy with a 700 awhp S4 on ME just can't drive and everyone on a standalone making 100-200 awhp less going faster by a large margin is a better driver.  But I doubt that is the case.

You break it down to the 3 major adjustments made to the ECU, and you're right.  What you're not right about is that it's just that simple IMO to make sure there is no intervention while keeping most of the ECU intact.  

100's of maps have been modeled by Audi to reflect the STOCK parts on the 2.7T in the B5 S4, 100's of other maps have been modeled by Audi to make the car behave and drive in a certain way with these parts according to what Audi believed the character of the car should be.  Maybe I'm oblivious to the argument you're trying to make since I've never gone so far in completely disabling everything that makes ME, ME.  

oh and sorry, care to elaborate on how ME has a more flexible fueling strategy than just about any stand alone?  "Nothing is preventing you from running whatever fueling strategy you like?" LOL, oh really.  How about to start if you want to run SD or true flex fuel (and these are just two very basic, basic things related to fueling strategy) you have be be a master IDA pro and disassembler/programmer.  Most standalones allow you to choose between many fueling strategies by merely selecting options, that includes options that maybe you're not even aware of that are out there by the sounds of it.

At this point I think you need to relate to your own words:

I was specifically referring to MAF and gasoline, not SD or E85.

The rest you are still vague on.

What, exactly, are the limits you are referring too; especially WOT on a drag strip (please dont say "track" unless you mean it) which seems to be the only thing the 1000hp crowd cares about.

Literally the only one I can think of is the hardcoded load limit.

Fuel, boost, timing.

Which is the limiting factor, and why?

If blow through makes more power, why?

The only remaining issue I can think of is single bank O2, in which case there are obvious difficulties.

The whole point being, this "x is faster than y" crap is bullshit without details.

What is so flexible about ME7's MAF fueling strategy that is better than one on a standalone?


My opinions (originally which now is 2+ years old) was based on the fact that everyone seems to be able to make dyno numbers, or heck even quick FATS times as both just involve going WOT in a single gear.

Yet racing involves much more then that, and while maybe you're thinking drag or road racing only includes 0 and 100% throttle applications, the transients that happen from shifting seem to IMO affect ME in ways that most don't realize.

You can use the stock KR without needing detcans. Other than that, nothing. Just saying you can make it do what you want.


I'm thinking DRAG racing only cares about transients between shifting, for example. For a road race, it isn't nearly as important.

hell, power as a whole isn't that important for road racing, especially considering the multitude of other limitations that make the S4 not so great on the track.

I don't see the relation between KR and fueling strategy being flexible (ie. the load input - MAF).

I will agree that a factory calibrated knock system is a fantastic thing to have in 85% of over all situations.


I'd disagree with you about that but let's not take the rabbit hole any deeper than it already is lol.

Of course you can make ME work with big hp setups.
In a lot of race applications standalone gives a lot of extra's.
Logging during a run, adjust stuff in few seconds, boost by gear etc. etc.

My recent work is on MS43 and MEVD17 not ME7 and MED17, but they use the same C16x and TC179x families. C167 is 16 bit, but it doesn't really matter since the vast majority of variables are 16 bit in a Tricore ECU where they are not using floating point. Pointers are invariably the native register size on both, so apart from the inconvenience of DPPs, there is little performance issue there. Most of the C167 instructions take a few cycles whereas the Tricore does most in one and has typically 10 times higher clock speeds.

There is a similar roughly one order of magnitude increase in memory of various types and size of the code and number of comms messages.

Very little is relevant to performance and getting ignition to tight enough tolerances not to matter for performance is a problem solved last century. Lambda and boost control are not even worth mentioning as they are trivial on less powerful CPUs than a C167.

If it matters, my modified ECU code is in stuff making 500HP/litre, but actually it doesn't as ECU code or CPU performance is virtually nothing to do with making silly power.

The complexity is in emissions targets and the German fetish for never ending models.

The processor - C167, MPC555 or Infineon Tricore has nothing to do with sensing the knock in any of these ECU's, it is done by a DSP. All the MCU does is read the integrator output. How fast it needs to do that is governed by engine RPM, there is absolutely nothing to gain by reading it more or less often, since only the peak-to-peak is what matters.
Because they are not sensing or processing the knock sensor signals it is completely irrelevant what clock speed they run at.
Knock sensing is mostly a solved problem, even M2.3.2 with 12mhz IC and analog circuitry with no DSP reacts to knock perfectly.

You don't even understand the picture you pasted nor how it applies to anything.
Guess what is in ME7?
http://www.farnell.com/datasheets/22751.pdf (http://www.farnell.com/datasheets/22751.pdf) - the very same thing as the picture you pasted, except it was done 20 years ago.
Knock processing chips have been used since 1994 in all Bosch gasoline ECUs.

Just installed two more processors and picked up 100 wheel, this thread is great. Love you guys.

Looking into overclocking my ecu like I do my video card now. Thanks for the hint!

How do you adjust the clockspeed limiter in ME7?

This is why the RS4 B7 is faster than the S4 - two ECU's instead of one...

lol

So what I am seeing that is super intresting is how some of the fastest street cars period are now going
to standalone that seems more like me7 with every new option, take the fueltech ft600 for example.
i remember when drive by wire was bad, now its desired everthing about this ecu is based on power management
which is basiclly traction control for the drag strip...

It goes well beyond that... There are people using ECU's to do wild things, far past what most people would think of doing.  Many ECU's now are capable of users/developers adding functions to the ECU's themselves by writing add-on's.

ME7 was well ahead of it's time when it was released... but what people are doing now with stand alone ECU's ME7 could only dream of.

That is not the case at all.
The system was designed to be in a street car. If you are building a proper drag strip car, of course you need an ECU that has time based control of the engine.

You could use the ME7 hardware and run your own software inside if if you would desire, but it is pointless. It is much better to use the right tool for the job.
If you do any kind of motorsport, then it is very beneficial to have built-in logging to flash memory, real time tuning, perhaps even telemetry.
None of that was a target for the ME7 that was made for street cars.

Bosch has high end motorsport ECU's which can do all that and more. Used by top teams around the world.

Basically what it comes down to is, comparing a dedicated track car to a dedicated dragstrip car and complaining that the dragstrip car does not go around the circuit as well (at all) as the dedicated track car.
Seems ridiculous, but pretty much the same comparison is done every day. If you want motorsport and need specific features, buy an ECU that does the motorsport thing with specific features.
You don't need an ECU with a million different models for everything designed to operate at any altitude and any temperature on thousands of engines over 10+ years with different tolerances. You have your specific car, run in your specific condition. Putting a standard ECU on a motorsport car is usually just needlessly holding it back.

As for the yadda yadda in here. My experience in driving and on the dyno is - it is actually harder to get the same power and behaviour from a standalone. Mostly because you just don't have the ability to calibrate the standalone's knock control as close as the OEM ecu has it, and then you can't run the same timing, because it becomes dangerous. However, this is true mostly on street cars - on dragstrip cars the same fueltech for example can perform much better because you can calibrate by time from start/distance, which no stock ECU has functionality of. I'm not even going to go into the different modes with transbrake, the fact that the ECU also controls the trans and so on. Different world, different ECU's.

^^^ I agree... I suppose what you said in the your first part of the post is what I was alluding to.

sure you could make your own software for ME7 but that just doesn't make sense beyond simple hacking to what most do as of now (like you).

right tool for the job is critical.  That said, it's hard to achieve the drive ability you get from something as complex as ME7 (and others like it/newer) of course.  But not impossible.  Same goes for knock control, depending on the tools you have at your disposal of course will change the end result quite substantially.