NefMoto

Technical => Reverse Engineering => Topic started by: turboat on December 28, 2014, 01:00:33 PM



Title: Disable ASR but keep ABS
Post by: turboat on December 28, 2014, 01:00:33 PM
ESP is annoying me a lot in the snow and mud, so I decided to code it out. This is on a 2001 euro A6 running M-box, I wanted to change it to 10612 (Euro 3, no ESP/ASR, 6mt, A6) but the M-box would not take it, it would only take 06611.

However, this gives an 'incorrect control module coding' message, presumably because its coded to A4 not A6. Im guessing I need to flash an A6 map back onto it before I can recode it as an A6, the question is will this error cause any issues if I ignore it for a few hundred miles? I'd rather not flash a different map on right now, as I dont have access to boot mode and being stranded would be rather awkward.


Title: Re: Incorrect Control Module Coding
Post by: ddillenger on December 28, 2014, 02:05:17 PM
ESP is annoying me a lot in the snow and mud, so I decided to code it out. This is on a 2001 euro A6 running M-box, I wanted to change it to 10612 (Euro 3, no ESP/ASR, 6mt, A6) but the M-box would not take it, it would only take 06611.

However, this gives an 'incorrect control module coding' message, presumably because its coded to A4 not A6. Im guessing I need to flash an A6 map back onto it before I can recode it as an A6, the question is will this error cause any issues if I ignore it for a few hundred miles? I'd rather not flash a different map on right now, as I dont have access to boot mode and being stranded would be rather awkward.

You can remove the error by changing CW_CAN_R.

It won't cause any issues.


Title: Re: Incorrect Control Module Coding
Post by: turboat on December 28, 2014, 03:41:03 PM
Cheers dd, I'll ignore it until I'm home and fix it then  :)


Title: Re: Incorrect Control Module Coding
Post by: ddillenger on December 29, 2014, 02:11:11 PM
Cheers dd, I'll ignore it until I'm home and fix it then  :)

Also, M-box coding options are

06711
06611

The only digits that matter are transmission and brakes, as obviously they configure the can-bus. I don't think you're going to have much luck coding 06611 to remove ESP however.


Title: Re: Incorrect Control Module Coding
Post by: turboat on December 30, 2014, 03:14:00 AM
06611 has successfully disabled esp, but unfortunately also the abs (interestingly the pedal feel is a load nicer now). I was assuming it was the a4/a6 coding that was upsetting it, I'll try 06711 today and see if it fixes the brakes.

I'll have to do some more reading on cw_can_r if I can use that to kill esp but leave the abs active.


Title: Re:
Post by: byzan a4 on January 02, 2015, 04:06:29 AM
Be careful the abs takes care of front-rear bias  . It can be interesting. .. lol


Title: Re: Incorrect Control Module Coding
Post by: nyet on January 02, 2015, 11:12:37 AM
PSA: DO NOT DO THIS ON THE TRACK (the simple recoding)

No, really, you have been warned.

I've been searching for a no ESP/EDL but with ABS solution for a long time (other than the #42 fuse thing), and as far as i know, coding isn't it..

I'm pretty sure you can't do it with CAN_R either, but if you can figure it out, that would be awesome.

The only known good fix I know of is using a pre-ESP module and retrofitting the harness... a ton of work it seems.


Title: Re: Incorrect Control Module Coding
Post by: turboat on January 02, 2015, 12:40:57 PM
Because Im more likely to notice the lack of brake balance on track?

Shame there isnt an easy fix to keep ABS but loose the ESP, the torque intervention has been driving me nuts on wet roads and the inability to do huge powerslides and donuts on the ice is just not acceptable, I put up with 23mpg for a reason!



Title: Re: Incorrect Control Module Coding
Post by: stuklr on January 09, 2015, 07:24:35 AM
Pulling fuse #42 is the power supply for the steering angle sensor. It sets an auto clearing fault in ABS that kills ESP, but not ABS. I have to do this in my allroad because if you delete the air suspension, ESP cannot be deactivated above 40mph. I wired up a switch and inline fuse holder to the 42 position. As a side effect though it seems to mess with brake bias. Be warned though, in the snow, it seems to want to lock the rear brakes easier.


Title: Re: Incorrect Control Module Coding
Post by: ddillenger on January 09, 2015, 07:54:15 AM
Has anyone tried to recode the ABS module?


Title: Re: Incorrect Control Module Coding
Post by: stuklr on January 09, 2015, 08:12:12 AM
I have tried to recode to just an A6 and it wont accept it. Don't know about the S4's


Title: Re: Incorrect Control Module Coding
Post by: TijnCU on January 09, 2015, 01:13:26 PM
I have tried to recode an older version (1995 t4 synchro) and even had contact with my VW dealer to look up coding variants. It turned out most abs modules will not accept other than factory coding since it is not included in the controller software.


Title: Re: Incorrect Control Module Coding
Post by: ddillenger on January 09, 2015, 02:15:14 PM
I have tried to recode to just an A6 and it wont accept it. Don't know about the S4's

Did you login first? Are you familiar with the hell that is recoding Bosch ABS units? Sometimes I have to try 100x...

lol


Title: Re: Incorrect Control Module Coding
Post by: prj on January 09, 2015, 03:11:44 PM
The correct way is to simply code out the ECU response to the torque reduce messages from ESP.


Title: Re: Incorrect Control Module Coding
Post by: nyet on January 09, 2015, 03:15:45 PM
The correct way is to simply code out the ECU response to the torque reduce messages from ESP.

ASM patch related to B_asr? Or as simple as a map location?

CW_CAN_R bit 2?


Title: Re: Incorrect Control Module Coding
Post by: stuklr on January 09, 2015, 04:29:12 PM
I would love to know too. I can get torque intervention in second gear and I hate having to kill the entire system.


Title: Re: Incorrect Control Module Coding
Post by: nyet on January 09, 2015, 04:31:07 PM
Some more guesses:

CWMSRCAN.2=1 + KLDMASRL=0xff (miasrl w)

And ASM hack miasrs_can to be 0xfe or 0xff

Or maybe hack B_amsrn to always be 1?


Title: Re: Incorrect Control Module Coding
Post by: nyet on January 09, 2015, 04:56:49 PM
Here's what I don't get: the FR says for B_asr_can and B_msr_can to be set, CW_CAN_R bit 2 must be set, but in the Mbox (for example) it isn't set... unless there are other variants (CW_CAN_R_0 etc) that are missing from the mappack.

the Gbox has 3,  _0 it is set, _1 and _2 it is set.


Title: Re: Incorrect Control Module Coding
Post by: nyet on January 10, 2015, 03:07:32 PM
Here's what I don't get: the FR says for B_asr_can and B_msr_can to be set, CW_CAN_R bit 2 must be set, but in the Mbox (for example) it isn't set... unless there are other variants (CW_CAN_R_0 etc) that are missing from the mappack.

the Gbox has 3,  _0 it is set, _1 and _2 it is set.

I'm an idiot.

Mbox

0x12c7a variant 1 - 06611 CW_CAN_R0 = 0x20 (bit 2 = 0)
0x12c7c variant 2 - 06711 CW_CAN_R1 = 0x24 (bit 2 = 1)

Change 0x12c6c to 0x20 and it should disable ASR, but I'm assuming this kills ABS too? Just like forcing 06611 coding?


Title: Re: Incorrect Control Module Coding
Post by: nyet on January 10, 2015, 03:19:02 PM
One more possibility: VMINAMSR?


Title: Re: Incorrect Control Module Coding
Post by: nyet on January 10, 2015, 03:46:03 PM
VMINAMSR is a dead end.

Here is what I have so far (if CW_CAN_R1.2 = 0 doesn't work):

B_amsrbot = 0 (disables ASR)
 (comes from CAN message)

B_asrakt = 0 (disables ASR)
 B_asr_can = 0
 misrs_can = 255 or misrl_can = 255

B_amsrn = 1 (resets miasrl and miasrs to NOASR)
 B_asr_can = 0 and B_msr_can = 0 and misrs_can = NOASR and misrl_can = NOASR

B_amsren = 0 (inhibits miasrl_can and miasrs_can)
 E_cat = 1 (CAN message timeout)
 B_nuamsr = 1
  B_amsrbot = 0 and  tnst_w>=TVCAMSR (car not started recently) and B_ctout = 1 (CAN timeout)
 B_amsrf = 1
  B_amsrn = 0 and B_asrakt = 0 and B_msrakt = 0
 B_statbr = 1
  B_sicat = 1
  B_statme_t = 1
  B_statme_c = 1 and SY_2SG = 1 and B_masterhw = 1
  CW_CAN_R.2 = 0
 B_amsr_c = 0 and SY_2SG=1


So probably easiest is ASM patch to force B_amsrbot or B_asrakt/B_asr_can to 0

If we want to keep miasrs (cruise control?), but not miasrl, we'll need to do something else.


Title: Re: Disable ASR but keep ABS
Post by: nyet on January 10, 2015, 05:31:31 PM
Easiest non-ASM way seems to be:

CWMSRCAN (0x11585) 2->6 (set bit 2)
KLDMASRL (0x1158E 5x1 8 bit) ff
RAMPASR (0x1631E 16 bit) ffff

the first two should prevent miasrl from dropping on ASR

ff'ing RAMPASR should minimize the time miasrs is reduced (can't figure out how to numb it completely via only maps) - may be a bad idea if miasrs is cruise control and we want to keep it.


Title: Re: Disable ASR but keep ABS
Post by: ddillenger on January 10, 2015, 05:38:08 PM
Easiest non-ASM way seems to be:

CWMSRSCAN (0x11585) 2->6 (set bit 2)
KLDMASRL (0x1158E 5x1 8 bit) ff
RAMPASR (0x1631E 16 bit) ffff

the first two should prevent miasrl from dropping on ASR
ff'ing RAMPASR should minimize the time miasrs is reduced (can't figure out how to numb it completely via only maps)

For the record, this is why I bought a 2000-lol.

My notes on CW_CAN_R

16 bit

Bit = 1 -> Reception, bit = 0 -> no reception and no timeout monitoring

Bit Function

15 Not assigned
14 Not assigned
13 % CANSEN
12 BSG_Last
11 Botschaft ZAS
10 Botschaft Fahrwerk (Chassis)
9 Botschaft Clima 1
8 Bothschaft Niveau 1
7 Botschaft Bremse 3
6 Botschaft Allrad 1
5 Kombi 1, 2 ,3
4 Botschaft LWS
3 Botschaft Airbag
2 Botschaft Brake 1
1 Botschaft Gearbox 2
0 Botschaft Gearbox 1


Title: Re: Disable ASR but keep ABS
Post by: nyet on January 10, 2015, 05:43:52 PM
So simply disabling CAN_R.2 will cause a fault since the ECU will get a CAN message it doesn't expect from the ESP unit.

That leaves ASM hacks or the tables above..

miasrs seems to be cruise control, so the ASM hacks to B_amsrbot/B_asrakt are probably unwise.

Which leaves KLDMASRL=ff and CWMSRCAN.2=1 - seems easiest anyway!


Title: Re: Disable ASR but keep ABS
Post by: nyet on January 10, 2015, 06:07:56 PM
For debugging purposes, these are the vars we need:

B_amsrbot
B_asrakt

Already have:

misrl_w
misrs_w
mimsr_w

B_asr
B_msr
B_mdein


Title: Re: Disable ASR but keep ABS
Post by: stuklr on January 10, 2015, 08:27:23 PM
So simply disabling CAN_R.2 will cause a fault since the ECU will get a CAN message it doesn't expect from the ESP unit.

That leaves ASM hacks or the tables above..

miasrs seems to be cruise control, so the ASM hacks to B_amsrbot/B_asrakt are probably unwise.

Which leaves KLDMASRL=ff and CWMSRCAN.2=1 - seems easiest anyway!



I am going to try this. Set the entire 5x1 KLDMASRL table to ff Nyet?


Title: Re: Disable ASR but keep ABS
Post by: nyet on January 10, 2015, 10:41:46 PM
Uh. In theory :)

Don't forget CWMSRCAN.2!

Please log

misrl_w
misrs_w
mimsr_w

B_asr
B_msr
B_mdein

before and after if you get a chance...


Title: Re: Disable ASR but keep ABS
Post by: stuklr on January 13, 2015, 03:56:10 PM
Well, all I got to do was a simple parking lot test since most of the snow here was melted by rain.


It worked as far as I can tell. I spun all four at 25psi and the ESP light flashing, but no throttle cut. It did feel funny because the EDL was engaging to keep both rears working equally, but boost and throttle stayed responsive. Now I really can't wait for more snow so I can really see if its off while moving above 15mph. I can take logs when I get real world conditions to match.

While it may stop cutting power, I doubt it will be very happy with rotation since ESP yaw control should still be active. I need more snow for fun testing!


Title: Re: Disable ASR but keep ABS
Post by: nyet on January 13, 2015, 05:20:16 PM
Thank you for the update!

I am pretty sure we can't defeat EDL or yaw control via ECU only but this is a good start.

The good news is that at speed, EDL should never activate.


Title: Re: Disable ASR but keep ABS
Post by: turboat on January 14, 2015, 03:33:32 AM
This would be my ideal result if we could keep edl active (does it only work on the rear wheels or front too?) but disable the esp.

I'll give this a go in the next few days, awesome work :)


Title: Re: Disable ASR but keep ABS
Post by: stuklr on January 14, 2015, 07:43:53 AM
I think EDL is only a rear wheel function.

My main concern is keeping correct brake bias. I used to kill fuse 42 to disable esp and that made it very prone to brake lockup.


Title: Re: Disable ASR but keep ABS
Post by: nyet on January 14, 2015, 10:54:49 AM
I don't want EDL either, but would like to preserve brake biasing.


Title: Re: Disable ASR but keep ABS
Post by: ddillenger on January 14, 2015, 10:57:57 AM
I don't want EDL either, but would like to preserve brake biasing.

EDL is a function of the ABS system. I think you're boned there.


Title: Re: Disable ASR but keep ABS
Post by: nyet on January 14, 2015, 11:00:53 AM
EDL is a function of the ABS system. I think you're boned there.

thankfully, I think a proper rear diff will make it irrelevant ;)


Title: Re: Disable ASR but keep ABS
Post by: turboat on January 14, 2015, 04:27:35 PM
It may be old news, but on the srs forum, there's a guy selling slightly modified 944 turbo diffs for s4's.


Title: Re: Disable ASR but keep ABS
Post by: seishuku on January 14, 2015, 06:25:38 PM
I swear my EDL is active 40+MPH, it's a 4.2 C5 A6... I've read that on the S cars it's active up to 50MPH, maybe the 4.2 is like that? I donno. lol

Honestly, I don't mind the EDL, though it does make me feel a little uneasy on ice, but it would also be kinda nice if it were more aggressive.

I would think that with a real LSD in either axle, the wheels would never actually spin enough to activate the EDL.


Title: Re: Disable ASR but keep ABS
Post by: nyet on January 14, 2015, 06:29:37 PM
I'm just scared that if I numb ASR but not EDL, the ECU will request full torque while EDL is doing its thing.


Title: Re: Disable ASR but keep ABS
Post by: seishuku on January 14, 2015, 08:04:50 PM
I don't think it should be an issue, the EDL can't (or shouldn't) provide enough pressure to be able to lock a wheel or slow it enough to be a problem, it's just enough to transfer a little torque.

Ever drive a car with a spool and one broken axle? While it's a real interesting ride, it's not super hard to control.

If you have full torque and the wheels are slipping and kicking EDL, it shouldn't be any different than it would be if it could limit torque, it just don't be as effective (it'll try, but probably won't apply enough brake pressure).


Title: Re: Disable ASR but keep ABS
Post by: nyet on January 14, 2015, 11:39:46 PM
I'm more concerned about heat and pad wear on the track...


Title: Re: Disable ASR but keep ABS
Post by: ddillenger on January 15, 2015, 12:33:39 AM
I'm more concerned about heat and pad wear on the track...

Brakes are for pussies Nye.

Vicegrip the lines.


Title: Re: Disable ASR but keep ABS
Post by: 10101011 on January 20, 2015, 01:10:19 PM
I'm more concerned about heat and pad wear on the track...

Ha Ha ha ....just get some 4R-1 porterfield pads and DBA rotors to deal with heat  ;D Maybe some cooling ducts. There have been times I have set fire to my pads at the track due to speed and late braking after 15 laps.. can I say heat soak  lol :D




Lee


Title: Re: Disable ASR but keep ABS
Post by: prj on January 20, 2015, 05:07:58 PM
Don't your cars have an ESP button?
If they don't perhaps you should retrofit it? All euro cars do.

And you WILL destroy most limited slip diffs with EDL.


Title: Re: Disable ASR but keep ABS
Post by: nyet on January 20, 2015, 05:17:08 PM
Don't your cars have an ESP button?

Yes, but sometimes I'm too lazy to press it :) Would love to know if there is a way to code the ESP module to have it default disabled.

Quote
And you WILL destroy most limited slip diffs with EDL.

I was afraid of this. What can i do?


Title: Re: Disable ASR but keep ABS
Post by: turboat on January 20, 2015, 05:21:41 PM
I'm more concerned about heat and pad wear on the track...

its worth splitting your brake and clutch fluid resivoirs to separate containers if heat is an issue, nothing more exciting than barrelling into a corner at 130, stomping the brakes and feeling them boil, going to knock it down a few cogs and realising that 4th is the only gear you can get because the clutch fluid is also boiling.

Personally I run ds2500s and adjust my driving style to suit and seldom get heat issues, but then Wales is notably cooler than CA :(


Title: Re: Disable ASR but keep ABS
Post by: prj on January 20, 2015, 05:23:44 PM
Yes, but sometimes I'm too lazy to press it :) Would love to know if there is a way to code the ESP module to have it default disabled.
Build in a timed relay, that after starting the engine automatically "presses" the button.
Problem solved.


Title: Re: Disable ASR but keep ABS
Post by: nyet on January 20, 2015, 05:24:53 PM
its worth splitting your brake and clutch fluid resivoirs to separate containers if heat is an issue, nothing more exciting than barrelling into a corner at 130, stomping the brakes and feeling them boil, going to knock it down a few cogs and realising that 4th is the only gear you can get because the clutch fluid is also boiling.

Personally I run ds2500s and adjust my driving style to suit and seldom get heat issues, but then Wales is notably cooler than CA :(

I have boiled my fluid more times than i'd like to admit on the track :/

In any case I am genuinely curious about how EDL could harm a clutch type LSD...

Wouldn't the LSD simply prevent the EDL from triggering in the first place by locking up?

And if it doesn't trigger, and the EDL triggers first, wouldn't it prevent the LSD from locking up?

What is the theoretical harm EDL can do to an LSD?


Title: Re: Disable ASR but keep ABS
Post by: nyet on January 20, 2015, 05:26:34 PM
Build in a timed relay, that after starting the engine automatically "presses" the button.
Problem solved.

The thought had crossed my mind. Never got around to it. Seem to me cracking in to the ESP unit would be more fun, and would also give me control over EDL as well.

Any possible downsides to FF'ing (or FE'ing) KLDMASRL?


Title: Re: Disable ASR but keep ABS
Post by: seishuku on January 20, 2015, 07:07:39 PM
I don't really see how EDL could ruin an LSD... It's simulating the same action (assming a TORSEN LSD), so if anything it might assist the LSD (amplifying the torque transfer).

I'd be all for reprogramming the ESP, but can it be reflashed? I've always figured it was OTP, so no one can tamper with the ABS  half of it (safety issues).


Title: Re: Disable ASR but keep ABS
Post by: prj on January 21, 2015, 12:20:18 AM
I don't really see how EDL could ruin an LSD... It's simulating the same action (assming a TORSEN LSD), so if anything it might assist the LSD (amplifying the torque transfer).
You don't have to see it, the fact is that EDL wrecks LSD's, always has been that way. Go ahead, try a torsen with active EDL in the rear diff, you'll be lucky if it lasts a day.

The thought had crossed my mind. Never got around to it. Seem to me cracking in to the ESP unit would be more fun, and would also give me control over EDL as well.

Any possible downsides to FF'ing (or FE'ing) KLDMASRL?
You are contradicting yourself. You are saying you want to crack the ESP unit, yet you are posting a map from the ECU.
Doing anything with the ECU is useless when you have yaw control in the ESP unit enabled.

For 2.7TT it is very simple - fit an older ABS unit from pre-facelift car. No ESP.


Title: Re: Disable ASR but keep ABS
Post by: nyet on January 21, 2015, 12:25:38 AM
You don't have to see it, the fact is that EDL wrecks LSD's, always has been that way.

Was hoping for something a bit more informative. In any case, torsen + torsen is bad with or without EDL. Looking at a clutch type diff.

Quote
You are contradicting yourself. You are saying you want to crack the ESP unit, yet you are posting a map from the ECU.

ARGH! Please bear with me before flying off the handle :P

There are three separate topics here:

1) ESP unit modifications (never tried)
2) Numbing ASR from the ESP unit by modifying the ECU (KLDMASRL)
3) Disabling EDL.

Quote
Doing anything with the ECU is useless when you have yaw control in the ESP unit enabled.

With respect to EDL, not ASR?

Quote
For 2.7TT it is very simple - fit an older ABS unit from pre-facelift car. No ESP.

I'm told this isn't that easy, since the harness is very different. Also, that doesn't help with respect to disabling EDL?


Title: Re: Disable ASR but keep ABS
Post by: prj on January 24, 2015, 02:51:45 AM
ASR, ABS, EDL and yaw control are all different things.

The only way you can disable yaw control is turn off ESP.
EDL - you need to pull a fuse.

As for the ESP function being permanently off - this is very easy to do in the ECU with a single byte mod.
But you won't be able to switch it back on.


Title: Re: Disable ASR but keep ABS
Post by: turboat on January 24, 2015, 03:27:47 AM
Doing anything with the ECU is useless when you have yaw control in the ESP unit enabled.


The only way you can disable yaw control is turn off ESP.

As for the ESP function being permanently off - this is very easy to do in the ECU with a single byte mod.

Slightly confused by this, do you mean that I can do a single byte mod to the ecu and that will disable esp and yaw, or if I disable esp in the engine ecu, I will still have yaw control active?


Title: Re: Disable ASR but keep ABS
Post by: nyet on January 24, 2015, 10:31:23 AM
ASR, ABS, EDL and yaw control are all different things.

The only way you can disable yaw control is turn off ESP.
EDL - you need to pull a fuse.

As for the ESP function being permanently off - this is very easy to do in the ECU with a single byte mod.
But you won't be able to switch it back on.

Yes, that is the purpose of this thread. All of those are being discussed if you browse the rest of the thread.

For the lazy:

Turning off ESP: I can see the ASR path (both slow/load and fast/timing), but I don't see how the ECU controls yaw control, only the req torque/timing interference via ASR messages.

Fuse 42: I'm unsure of side effects on brake biasing


Title: Re: Disable ASR but keep ABS
Post by: stuklr on January 25, 2015, 08:11:49 PM
I can attest that pulling fuse #42(power for the steering angle sensor) does affect brake bias. In the opposite way you would expect, the fronts would lock easier, probably in a effort to keep it from spinning in a panic braking event without esp.

That was my only work around for disabling ESP after removing the air suspension from my allroad. Without the air susp control module, the esp would automatically come back on above 40mph. Now by FFing KLDMASRL, I still get full power, but the esp will try to keep the car straight. No fun power slides on snowy roads, but at least it doesn't kill my power when I slip a little.


Title: Re: Disable ASR but keep ABS
Post by: nyet on January 25, 2015, 10:43:28 PM
Now by FFing KLDMASRL, I still get full power, but the esp will try to keep the car straight. No fun power slides on snowy roads, but at least it doesn't kill my power when I slip a little.

I'm worried this is just dumping power into your brakes...


Title: Re: Disable ASR but keep ABS
Post by: julex on January 26, 2015, 07:24:01 AM
I'm worried this is just dumping power into your brakes...

Coscious driver should be able to tell when car is not accelerating as normal when ESP kicks in and modulates all four wheels while going full boost. I think this is a perfect set up tbh. I just flashed changes to my ECU and with 2-3ft of snow expected today/tmorrow I should have plenty opportunity to test it :)


Title: Re: Disable ASR but keep ABS
Post by: masterj on February 07, 2015, 03:38:44 PM
I haven't read whole topic but maybe whole NASNOTKL  = FF will help? This will at least disable miasrl_w load reduction :) As a bonus this will also ignore requested load reduction from auto transmission. Or am I wrong?


Title: Re: Disable ASR but keep ABS
Post by: nyet on February 07, 2015, 06:03:19 PM
I haven't read whole topic but maybe whole NASNOTKL  = FF will help? This will at least disable miasrl_w load reduction :) As a bonus this will also ignore requested load reduction from auto transmission. Or am I wrong?

I'm seeing the opposite, it seems to inhibit miext (from misrs) in MDABWS, but not miasrl_w

Which is odd, since MDABWS looks like it is labeled "engine stall protection" which you would think would be there to override mifa with a LARGER value... unless that comment is slightly misplaced and refers to mimsr.

In any case, it seems like if I'm reading this right doing BOTH might be the real solution:

CWMSRCAN.2=1 and KLDMASRL=0xff (override miasrl_w)
NASNOTKL=0xff (override miasrs_w)

Note that "Abwuergeschutz" means "anti-stall" though, so then again... I really don't get why anti-stall would involve CAPPING the requested torque.

Finally, 0xff seems to mean 2550 rpm, which isn't that useful. I think in general it might not be a good idea to interfere with miasrs.


Title: Re: Disable ASR but keep ABS
Post by: stuklr on February 07, 2015, 09:40:15 PM
The current changes have served me well so far. I was mostly annoyed when I would get torque reduction when grabbing second. If its snowy out, I can spin, as long as its straight, with no ill effects. If I have to turn the wheel, then EDL and ESP start to apply brakes to correct. But that is exactly what is supposed to happen. Only now it straightens the car without killing forward momentum. Odd to get used to, but works very well.

But this was perfect for those times in the wet when I just want to take off without being slapped by the traction control.  If I really want to hoon around, I just kill fuse #42.


Title: Re: Disable ASR but keep ABS
Post by: masterj on February 08, 2015, 02:10:05 AM
I'm seeing the opposite, it seems to inhibit miext (from misrs) in MDABWS, but not miasrl_w

Which is odd, since MDABWS looks like it is labeled "engine stall protection" which you would think would be there to override mifa with a LARGER value... unless that comment is slightly misplaced and refers to mimsr.

In any case, it seems like if I'm reading this right doing BOTH might be the real solution:

CWMSRCAN.2=1 and KLDMASRL=0xff (override miasrl_w)
NASNOTKL=0xff (override miasrs_w)

Note that "Abwuergeschutz" means "anti-stall" though, so then again... I really don't get why anti-stall would involve CAPPING the requested torque.

Finally, 0xff seems to mean 2550 rpm, which isn't that useful. I think in general it might not be a good idea to interfere with miasrs.

Are you sure that NASNOTKL in your file is limited to 2550 rpm? In my file it is 10200rpm (factor 40)

P.S> look into MDKOL, NASNOTKL outputs nasnottm variable which is used in MDKOL (nmot < nasnottm) and thus skipping miasrl_w and miges_w


Title: Re: Disable ASR but keep ABS
Post by: nyet on February 08, 2015, 11:25:36 PM
Are you sure that NASNOTKL in your file is limited to 2550 rpm? In my file it is 10200rpm (factor 40)

Yep, my mistake, I was going by the FR which says not to set it past 2550 rpm.. interesting.

Quote
P.S> look into MDKOL, NASNOTKL outputs nasnottm variable which is used in MDKOL (nmot < nasnottm) and thus skipping miasrl_w and miges_w

Interesting, nice catch, I did not notice the nasnottm is used elsewhere.

Any idea what the deal with "anti stall" is?


Title: Re: Disable ASR but keep ABS
Post by: masterj on February 08, 2015, 11:42:24 PM
Yep, my mistake, I was going by the FR which says not to set it past 2550 rpm.. interesting.

Interesting, nice catch, I did not notice the nasnottm is used elsewhere.

Any idea what the deal with "anti stall" is?

Eh.. Dunno, but i guess it is named so that the requested load by asr/trasmission would not be lower than it is actually needed for engine to idle properly.


Title: Re: Disable ASR but keep ABS
Post by: jibberjive on February 28, 2015, 09:22:31 PM
Subb'd for future reference when I have more time. 



Title: Re: Disable ASR but keep ABS
Post by: nyet on March 02, 2015, 10:57:54 AM
Eh.. Dunno, but i guess it is named so that the requested load by asr/trasmission would not be lower than it is actually needed for engine to idle properly.

Exactly. Look at the miasrs path... it isn't a limiter..


Title: Re: Disable ASR but keep ABS
Post by: nyet on April 29, 2015, 10:43:07 AM
I'm an idiot. I should have done my due diligence.

MSR is "motor slip regulation", that is, off throttle, if the ESP controller detects wheel slip due to sudden drop in engine RPM (torque braking), it will send a CAN message to the ECU to temporarily increase requested torque.

It is lumped in with "anti-stall" because from the ECU perspective, it is the same function: temporarily increase req torque...

Work in progress, input welcome:

http://s4wiki.com/wiki/Electronic_Stability_Program


Title: Re: Disable ASR but keep ABS
Post by: nyet on April 30, 2015, 12:02:12 AM
Disable MSR:

http://s4wiki.com/wiki/Tuning#Disable_MSR


Title: Re: Disable ASR but keep ABS
Post by: turboat on April 30, 2015, 10:25:37 AM
Just getting caught up on this thread, your comment about dumping power into the brakes if EDL is active - how obvious is this likely to be in typical driving conditions? Would I feel it, or notice one of the brakes getting warm?



Title: Re: Disable ASR but keep ABS
Post by: nyet on April 30, 2015, 10:34:28 AM
I have no idea.. because I don't know if ESP on/off makes a difference. In theory, if the ESP module thinks ASR is enabled, maybe it is more aggressive with EDL? I have no clue. Hoping others can chime in here.


Title: Re: Disable ASR but keep ABS
Post by: turboat on April 30, 2015, 12:34:16 PM
I agree with the theory! I'll disable ASR in the ECU and then go donut the shit out of the audi and see what happens :) In the name of science, obviously.


Title: Re: Disable ASR but keep ABS
Post by: nyet on April 30, 2015, 01:16:17 PM
Also it would be super helpful to know exactly wtf the esp button does.


Title: Re: Disable ASR but keep ABS
Post by: prj on April 30, 2015, 02:09:58 PM
The ESP can be disabled from the ECU on the fly and re-enabled.
I mean fully off, yaw control etc. It will leave a code in the ESP unit though, and I am not sure if the ESP light will go off or if it will re-engage the ESP before you cycle the ignition.

I need to test it.


Title: Re: Disable ASR but keep ABS
Post by: nyet on April 30, 2015, 03:48:18 PM
Thanks for taking a look, prj... I assume this method doesn't touch EDL? Know any specifics about the best way to disable it? (e.g. fake handbrake signal etc)


Title: Re: Disable ASR but keep ABS
Post by: nyet on October 27, 2015, 01:36:12 PM
The ESP can be disabled from the ECU on the fly and re-enabled.
I mean fully off, yaw control etc. It will leave a code in the ESP unit though, and I am not sure if the ESP light will go off or if it will re-engage the ESP before you cycle the ignition.

I need to test it.

bump


Title: Re: Disable ASR but keep ABS
Post by: ddillenger on October 27, 2015, 01:46:48 PM
bump

I don't know how this could be done on the fly without custom code or an emulator.


Title: Re: Disable ASR but keep ABS
Post by: prj on October 31, 2015, 03:12:19 PM
A little bit of custom code is needed yes...

Don't have a ME7 car to test, sold my RS4.


Title: Re: Disable ASR but keep ABS
Post by: savages4 on November 09, 2015, 10:04:28 PM
Always available to test custom code on my b5 s4


Title: Re: Disable ASR but keep ABS
Post by: ddillenger on November 09, 2015, 10:33:36 PM
Always available to test custom code on my b5 s4

I will do this if you want it.


Title: Re: Disable ASR but keep ABS
Post by: rnagy86 on March 12, 2016, 03:09:16 AM
Just to revive this thread a bit, I installed a rear LSD in my b5 and wired the black/red wire
(brake light switch) of the ESP/ABS ECUto switched +12V to disable EDL. Checked with vag-com and and
it works, brake is Activated. However this will throw a code and cause a christmas tree
instrument cluster. I noticed that it stores an error code (brake light switch - implausible signal)
after driving over 100+km/h for 1-2 minutes. Simple city cruising does not seem to trigger this.
Using the brake light switch was suggested on several forums but it seems that it's not really
the best solution.
Did anyone ever successfully disabled EDL without throwing any codes?

Thanks


Title: Re: Disable ASR but keep ABS
Post by: Snow Trooper on March 12, 2016, 11:12:02 AM
Yes, adjust your ebrake cable and make it so the first two clicks have no tension. When you want to hoon click it up one or two clicks and go two town. Been running a diff (plus a very agressive center diff) and doing this for a long time.

To elaborate further, when I ran the edl circuit mod from way back when, over time I got rough road signal codes and other issues. I think it messed an abs controller up too. I cut the circuit out in 2008 or so and have been like this since.


Title: Re: Disable ASR but keep ABS
Post by: rnagy86 on March 12, 2016, 11:19:01 AM
Yes, adjust your ebrake cable and make it so the first two clicks have no tension. When you want to hoon click it up one or two clicks and go two town. Been running a diff (plus a very agressive center diff) and doing this for a long time.

To elaborate further, when I ran the edl circuit mod from way back when, over time I got rough road signal codes and other issues. I think it messed an abs controller up too. I cut the circuit out in 2008 or so and have been like this since.

Running the circuit mod means that directly having +12V on the brake pedal wire at the ABS ECU?

What about using the ebrake signal wire on the ABS ECU all the time instead to avoid the ebrake light on the dash?
(I know it is a minor issue but i get super annoyed by having constant lights on the dash)

I wish someone with the knowledge could hack the ABS/ESP software :) :)


Title: Re: Disable ASR but keep ABS
Post by: nyet on March 12, 2016, 11:34:00 AM
What about using the ebrake signal wire on the ABS ECU all the time instead to avoid the ebrake light on the dash?
(I know it is a minor issue but i get super annoyed by having constant lights on the dash)

In theory, this should work, and it is something i've wanted to do for a while

Quote
I wish someone with the knowledge could hack the ABS/ESP software :) :)

Yea :(


Title: Re: Disable ASR but keep ABS
Post by: armageddon on March 12, 2016, 02:09:26 PM
I'm following this as I will be installing an v8 torsen lsd(the "stronger" one)

I was thinking in using the brake light switch mod, bad news

although, on audisrs, there's some guys using quaife torsen rear diff without problems and with no "modification" to EDL


Title: Re: Disable ASR but keep ABS
Post by: turboat on March 14, 2016, 09:08:52 AM
This still bugs me, the torque intervention really spoils the feel of the car.


Title: Re: Disable ASR but keep ABS
Post by: rnagy86 on March 14, 2016, 11:01:39 AM
So I reverted the brake light switch back to its original place and re-pinned the
parking brake wire on the ABS/ESP ECU.
Make sure that you are not giving that pin +12V as it gets +12V by default
and then when you pull the parking brake, it will pull it to ground!
So what I did is that I grounded that pin to the ABS ECU's housing
where it is bolted to the chassis.
No parking brake light on the dash, but if I pull it there is, so that works.
I've also checked the ABS module (chan 2 measuring blocks) and the ECU
thinks that the parking brake is on all the time, so that's good as well.
I drove the car for 50km and no ill effects thus far.



Title: Re: Disable ASR but keep ABS
Post by: nyet on March 14, 2016, 11:04:54 AM
So what I did is that I grounded that pin to the ABS ECU's housing
where it is bolted to the chassis.

Any pics? That's awesome.


Title: Re: Disable ASR but keep ABS
Post by: rnagy86 on March 14, 2016, 11:12:14 AM

I'll take some tomorrow but it's nothing fancy really, the ECU under the back seat has two M6 bolts, you
remove the nut and place a round terminal below it, then the other side of the wire goes to the ABS
ECU which you either re-pin if you have the tools and the special pin or cut the wire.
Be careful to check your wiring diagram, because there are 4 different ones.

Anti-lock Brake (ABS 5.3) with (EDL) and (ASC - ASR) and (EPC), from 1999 m.y..pdf
Anti-lock Brake (ABS 5.3) with (EDL) and (ASC - ASR), from 2000 m. y..pdf
Anti-lock Brake (ABS 5.3) with (EDL), (ASC - ASR) and (ESP), 1999 m.y..pdf
Anti-lock Brake (ABS 5.3) with (EDL), (ASC - ASR) and (ESP), 2000 m.y..pdf

For me the last one was the correct and on the ABS ECU i had to use:
pin 76 (grey/yellow).


Title: Re: Disable ASR but keep ABS
Post by: Snow Trooper on March 14, 2016, 01:36:05 PM
Awesome, never bothered to hard wire mine. Probably should. The ebrake signal def works though and good to see your experience back it up.

Sometimes I launch with it down, so un defeated. I always click it up to drift and such though. Not sure I want it all the time. 


Title: Re: Incorrect Control Module Coding
Post by: nyet on August 10, 2016, 12:47:51 PM
Pulling fuse #42 is the power supply for the steering angle sensor.

Can somebody independently verify this for me? According to the wiring diagram, it goes to pin 44 on the ABS control module, and most likely provides power for the hydraulic pump for traction control (V156) on pins 22 and 24.

Quote
It sets an auto clearing fault in ABS that kills ESP, but not ABS. I have to do this in my allroad because if you delete the air suspension, ESP cannot be deactivated above 40mph. I wired up a switch and inline fuse holder to the 42 position. As a side effect though it seems to mess with brake bias. Be warned though, in the snow, it seems to want to lock the rear brakes easier.

Are you sure the rear brake lockup tendency isn't just because you're disabling per wheel braking via TC intervention? I would like to know conclusively if pulling fuse 42 interferes with brake biasing (F:R proportioning valve) (aka EBD?)


Title: Re: Disable ASR but keep ABS
Post by: prj on December 07, 2016, 06:48:30 AM
Btw if you are running an open diff the EDL helps a huge amount. I did some tests on a new Audi S1 that is used for rallying.
Tested it with two wheels on snow and two on tarmac.

Wheel speeds without EDL:
Code:
Time FL FR RL RR
0.00 0 0 0 0
0.25 3.9 50.8 4.4 34.1
0.49 9.1 52.5 8.2 59
0.75 12.6 71.3 12.7 66.7
0.99 16.1 89.4 15.7 93.3
1.25 19.1 93.3 19.2 91.3
1.50 22.7 89.4 22.6 90.3
1.75 26 82.7 25.9 82.9
2.00 31.4 75 29.9 78.9
2.25 37 73.1 36.8 72.2
2.50 41.3 40 42.3 41.2
After 2 seconds the car is still at 30 km/h. And the two wheels that are on the snow are still spinning out of control.
At 2.50 the car leaves the snow and the end wheel speed is about 41.3 km/h at that point, as it starts rapidly accelerating.

Wheel speeds with EDL:
Code:
Time FL FR RL RR
0.00 0 0 0 0
0.25 41.3 3.3 26.4 4.7
0.50 40.2 8.7 36.8 9.3
0.75 45.4 13.9 50.1 17.8
1.00 60.4 18.6 62.4 18.3
1.25 61.8 25.8 63.8 23.7
1.50 61.9 34.4 60.5 29.1
1.75 68.5 34.4 70.8 35.7
2.00 68.4 39.3 70.2 38.8
2.24 62.4 45.8 73.5 43
2.50 47.2 48 48.8 48.5

Here at 2 seconds even with the wheels spinning we already have almost 40km/h. So it gets to the speed 20% faster.
Even bigger is the difference for example at 1.5 seconds in - 22km/h and roughly 32km/h respectively.

The car also understeers like mad in corners with EDL off. Turn EDL on and suddenly it goes where you point it.

So if you have open diffs, don't try to disable EDL. Yaw control is a different story though.


Title: Re: Disable ASR but keep ABS
Post by: nyet on December 07, 2016, 10:37:00 AM
I have a rear LSD.. which is why I want to disable EDL entirely.

As aside note: I don't have a useful computer handy, does anybody know what the stock EDL vehicle speed cutoff is for ME7.1?


Title: Re: Disable ASR but keep ABS
Post by: TijnCU on December 07, 2016, 12:38:06 PM
EDL works at speeds up to 80 km/h (50 mph) on all quattro models for the B5 platform.


Title: Re: Disable ASR but keep ABS
Post by: Zenerdiode on December 07, 2016, 04:18:12 PM
The car also understeers like mad in corners with EDL off. Turn EDL on and suddenly it goes where you point it.

Is that because in more modern stuff like the A1; it's not just EDL, but now TV (Torque Vectoring)?


Title: Re: Disable ASR but keep ABS
Post by: prj on December 07, 2016, 06:09:11 PM
Is that because in more modern stuff like the A1; it's not just EDL, but now TV (Torque Vectoring)?

It is EDL. The diffs are open, there is no clever front or rear diff on the Audi S1.
All it does is brake the freely spinning wheels.

Also, the steering angle sensor is disabled on this car to force ESP off, so it has no way of knowing which way the car is pointed.

It is logical that when you go into a corner the inner wheels loses traction first. If you brake those wheels it will force the car to turn more.
A torque vectoring system can be used if the front or rear diff side to side bias can be modified, this is then done pre-emptively and favors a biased torque split with more torque going to the outer wheels in a corner.
On Audi it is known as the "Sport differential".


Title: Re: Disable ASR but keep ABS
Post by: nyet on December 07, 2016, 06:10:24 PM
EDL works at speeds up to 80 km/h (50 mph) on all quattro models for the B5 platform.


IIRC the b5 is significantly lower but I don't recall the value.


Title: Re: Disable ASR but keep ABS
Post by: TijnCU on December 08, 2016, 01:03:06 AM
The fwd b5 version is active up to 40km/h, which is significantly lower   ;)


Title: Re: Disable ASR but keep ABS
Post by: prj on December 08, 2016, 02:07:52 AM
On the Audi S1 EDL is always active.

However, it has a modeled brake pad/disc temperature in the ESP/ABS control unit.
If the modeled temperature gets too high, EDL function is disabled until the brakes cool off.

Not exactly rocket science when you know the brake bias, speed, weight of the car and the rate at which the brakes cool off.


Title: Re: Disable ASR but keep ABS
Post by: Mikhail on October 17, 2017, 08:25:18 AM
On the Audi S1 EDL is always active.

However, it has a modeled brake pad/disc temperature in the ESP/ABS control unit.
If the modeled temperature gets too high, EDL function is disabled until the brakes cool off.

Not exactly rocket science when you know the brake bias, speed, weight of the car and the rate at which the brakes cool off.
Is it possible to code a 4wd abs to 2wd? Or what could be done to prevent edl working by coding. Obviously code heaviest car and smallest brakes.


Title: Re: Disable ASR but keep ABS
Post by: stuklr on May 09, 2018, 08:53:28 AM
ASR, ABS, EDL and yaw control are all different things.

The only way you can disable yaw control is turn off ESP.
EDL - you need to pull a fuse.

As for the ESP function being permanently off - this is very easy to do in the ECU with a single byte mod.
But you won't be able to switch it back on.


PRJ, you said you can disable the ECU's response to ESP with a single byte? Address?

I would like to disable The ecu's response to a loss of traction in a straight line. None of the functions Nyet listed seems to stop ESP from asking the ecu to cut power completely. It allows the car to spin on launch, but then slowly pulls timing as the vehicle accelerates. 

I currently run these changes:
 KLDMASRL = all 5 values FF
CWMSRSCAN 2= 03  but have tired both 06 and 07
NASNOTKL = all 5 values FF

If I launch hard enough to slip the tires, The ESP light comes on and the longer the power is applied, the more I can feel the car loose acceleration. As if timing is dropping the entire pull. Boost is sustained, throttle is 100%. This condition only stops if you lift completely from the throttle pedal and reapply. Then the car pulls as normal. No power loss.

My case may be different because it is an allroad. I cannot just kill esp with the button anymore because without air suspension, ESP cannot be disabled over 40mph.







Title: Re: Disable ASR but keep ABS
Post by: nyet on May 09, 2018, 08:57:34 AM
Did you try shorting the parking brake signal?


Title: Re: Disable ASR but keep ABS
Post by: stuklr on May 09, 2018, 09:01:33 AM
I have not. I thought that only killed EDL though? Or does it disable esp?


Title: Re: Disable ASR but keep ABS
Post by: stuklr on May 09, 2018, 10:49:51 AM
Update: ebrake up one click, esp light still blinks and engages.


Title: Re: Disable ASR but keep ABS
Post by: nyet on May 09, 2018, 12:41:59 PM
I have not. I thought that only killed EDL though? Or does it disable esp?

Yea, was just wondering out of curiosity. Looks like you'll have to bust out the disassembler and do some more ram location logging.


Title: Re: Disable ASR but keep ABS
Post by: carsey on July 26, 2019, 11:37:21 AM
Did anyone ever get to the bottom of 'numbing' the ASR so that you can continue accelerating whilst the wheels are spinning? KLDMASRL seems like the map which sorts it, but is this one sucessful in limiting engine power, but not cutting it abruptly?

Cheers


Title: Re: Disable ASR but keep ABS
Post by: fknbrkn on July 26, 2019, 01:29:43 PM
Try to play with MDNORM


Title: Re: Disable ASR but keep ABS
Post by: nyet on July 26, 2019, 01:48:39 PM
Try to play with MDNORM

Did nothing for me on ME7.1


Title: Re: Disable ASR but keep ABS
Post by: solexboosted69 on December 03, 2021, 05:49:12 AM
edited maps nasnotkl,kldmasrl,cwmsrcan.
asr began to interfere later,edl active, but still want more freedom
me7.5 a4b6 1.8tqm