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Author Topic: ME7.9.10 - Understanding the torque model  (Read 200233 times)
woj
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« Reply #300 on: October 25, 2018, 01:05:42 PM »

If your ECU version can log knock then the software will log it, otherwise you have to mod the ECU bin to enable it. With the cables - all my ELM devices have the bridge resistor (brutally) removed, that's not it. My USB ELM has the required protocols implemented, the BT one does not, end of story. I almost bought a genuine one, but decided to build my own Arduino based interface instead.
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370rx
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« Reply #301 on: October 25, 2018, 10:12:54 PM »

WOJ, you cool)! I'd like to purchase your device when you make it! I noticed that the registration of the detonation counter stops growing in alfaobd when I remove the immobilizer through the immooff program, so some parameter is responsible for this counter in the eeprom... also in Function and DataSheet I found the CWKRREF parameter, it activates registration, it costs at 00?

If your ECU version can log knock then the software will log it, otherwise you have to mod the ECU bin to enable it. With the cables - all my ELM devices have the bridge resistor (brutally) removed, that's not it. My USB ELM has the required protocols implemented, the BT one does not, end of story. I almost bought a genuine one, but decided to build my own Arduino based interface instead.
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nyet
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« Reply #302 on: October 25, 2018, 10:17:34 PM »

God how did top reply start happening in forums now
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ME7.1 tuning guide
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Trim heatmap tool

Please do not ask me for tunes. I'm here to help people make their own.

Do not PM me technical questions! Please, ask all questions on the forums! Doing so will ensure the next person with the same issue gets the opportunity to learn from your ex
woj
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« Reply #303 on: October 25, 2018, 10:54:07 PM »

One "commercial" immo off program I have seen is essentially butchering the eeprom for this ECU in the attempt to kill immo. People should be hanged by their balls for selling stuff like that.
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370rx
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« Reply #304 on: October 25, 2018, 11:35:05 PM »

This I noticed) but now I can not turn it off on my own, my eeprom was damaged by another tuner, I already bought such a car.

One "commercial" immo off program I have seen is essentially butchering the eeprom for this ECU in the attempt to kill immo. People should be hanged by their balls for selling stuff like that.
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370rx
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« Reply #305 on: October 26, 2018, 12:27:01 AM »

I have a couple of 1.4 t-jet (turbine gr1752) tuner tuning files on 120cv camshafts, what I don't understand is the KFZWOP cards, why he left it off 150cv, and KFZW ignition angles off 120cv. Can someone explain, I think it's a mistake of the tuner...
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370rx
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« Reply #306 on: October 26, 2018, 12:28:28 AM »

KFZWOP
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woj
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« Reply #307 on: October 26, 2018, 12:39:23 AM »

So now I have a genuine question about tuning Smiley My transient fuel on E85 is still all over the place when cold (0-20*C), this is mostly not felt when driving, but on some occasions yes, today I got a rich ~10.5AFR spike on decel followed by a lean spike on accel ~16AFR and that choked the engine slightly, and another lean spike on accel of around 18AFR somewhere else, also bit choky.

Looking at my logs I concluded that the thing that would help here is to damp the throttle operation and slope at cold temperatures. Now, how do I do that in the most convenient way? There are several torque slope limitation maps, but none as far as I can see temperature dependent.

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woj
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« Reply #308 on: October 28, 2018, 03:42:10 AM »

So my problems seems to be not as much as AFR / transient fluctuations, but RPM dropping below sustainable threshold when I shift gears. My stationary and driving idle are already raised a bit, and that makes things smooth when steady state, but I have the habit of changing gears very low when cold not to over-rev the engine. This forces RPM drop and then it chokes trying to get out of it on throttle press. Not sure if this is solvable by ECU mods. A different story is that it's not a good idea to drive off immediately after starting the engine at ~0*C.
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woj
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« Reply #309 on: November 17, 2018, 03:10:59 PM »

So I am back at looking at the very nervous knock detection behavior of these ECUs. I added knock retard showing to my dash app, so that I could see what's going on live and get a feeling of what triggers it when driving, dry logs don't always give away the inside the car gut feeling Wink It is more or less obvious that it is the dynamic range that is most prone to this (not surprising), sudden throttle press in low rev in 3rd triggers some retard response, less in 4th or 5th, in 2nd the retards typically go over the roof as soon as touch the pedal. The ECU obviously accounts for more sensitivity and noise during dynamic changes by increasing the detection thresholds. But, I looked at the related maps (specifically dynamic mode thresholds), and one got me suspicious - NGKRWN, see the shot. One of FRs I checked suggest that these values should be in the 800-1000 rpm/s ranges, here I have 2000+ (can of course also be a bad conversion factor).

I can of course test it (and will eventually), but I was wondering what this map is on other engines / ECUs? And what is the right conversion? I have it defined as X*100/256 based on the Alfa damos, but this is known not to be very accurate.

I rechecked my older logs - the retard kicks in right after the load stabilizes (stops climbing rapidly, this I guess kills the load change related dynamic mode) while the rpm keeps climbing, in the 2nd at the rate of ~1000rpm/sec, this feels very rapid but is nowhere near the 2000 rpm ranges in the map.
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woj
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« Reply #310 on: November 18, 2018, 07:57:55 AM »

For comparison, the rpm gradient dynamic mode thresholds from Fiat 500 N/A version of the same ECU. Not much lower, but lower... My next attempt should be to log the dynamic mode flags and check if there are any correlations before I try with lowering these.

My parallel experiment made today, now with E70 and I copied the complete knock sensor and detection setup from Grande Abarth 155 hp version. Not a single retard event in several pulls and other knock provocations.
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370rx
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« Reply #311 on: November 18, 2018, 09:26:14 AM »

I so understood you somehow registered detonation (Knock)? (using Google translate)


So I am back at looking at the very nervous knock detection behavior of these ECUs. I added knock retard showing to my dash app, so that I could see what's going on live and get a feeling of what triggers it when driving, dry logs don't always give away the inside the car gut feeling Wink It is more or less obvious that it is the dynamic range that is most prone to this (not surprising), sudden throttle press in low rev in 3rd triggers some retard response, less in 4th or 5th, in 2nd the retards typically go over the roof as soon as touch the pedal. The ECU obviously accounts for more sensitivity and noise during dynamic changes by increasing the detection thresholds. But, I looked at the related maps (specifically dynamic mode thresholds), and one got me suspicious - NGKRWN, see the shot. One of FRs I checked suggest that these values should be in the 800-1000 rpm/s ranges, here I have 2000+ (can of course also be a bad conversion factor).

I can of course test it (and will eventually), but I was wondering what this map is on other engines / ECUs? And what is the right conversion? I have it defined as X*100/256 based on the Alfa damos, but this is known not to be very accurate.

I rechecked my older logs - the retard kicks in right after the load stabilizes (stops climbing rapidly, this I guess kills the load change related dynamic mode) while the rpm keeps climbing, in the 2nd at the rate of ~1000rpm/sec, this feels very rapid but is nowhere near the 2000 rpm ranges in the map.

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woj
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« Reply #312 on: November 18, 2018, 10:26:36 AM »

I so understood you somehow registered detonation (Knock)? (using Google translate)

Read the thread back a bit. I get knock induced retards sometimes even on Ethanol under more or less repeatable conditions, and despite good advice from here that this could be hardware related (rattling, exhaust resonating, what not) I am still looking into possible causes in the ECU / calibrations, because I know for a fact that everybody I talked to has the same problem regardless of fuel type, base ignition setting, boost, etc. Something is simply badly messed up and I want to know what (also Fiat calibrations are known for peculiarities of this sort, even on much older engines / ECU generations).
« Last Edit: November 18, 2018, 11:20:10 AM by woj » Logged
370rx
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« Reply #313 on: November 18, 2018, 11:09:42 AM »

Very interesting! How do you cool, WOJ) Let me know if you have any information. I will put myself GT1446, I will try to transfer as much as possible the possible cards with abarth 180cv, the only thing that would calm me down is the detection (logging) of detonation. I will be glad to your tips) (using Google translator)

Read the thread back a bit. I get knock induced retards sometimes even on Ethanol under more or less repeatable conditions, and despite good advise from here that this could be hardware related (rattling, exhaust resonating, what not) I am still looking into possible causes in the ECU / calibrations, because I know for a fact that everybody I talked to has the same problem regardless of fuel type, base ignition setting, boost, etc. Something is simply badly messed up and I want to know what (also Fiat calibrations are known for peculiarities of this sort, even on much older engines / ECU generations).
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woj
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« Reply #314 on: November 20, 2018, 01:04:51 PM »

Without intervening into the knock detection calibration, I logged some variables to see what's going on inside the knock detection routines. A sample attached below. I left only the most interesting things in the graph, the rest you have to trust me on, they would haze the picture or are beyond the magnified area.

It shows what happens more or less typically when I looked at the other parts of the logs. The green line that goes up to 1 at 123.5 s. indicates the rpm ramp up dynamic mode for knock detection is on (no wonder, the rpm gradient goes up to 4000 rpm/s). Dynamic mode = knock detection is dampened by a factor of ~1.2. 2 on the green line would mean load ramp up, but here it does not happen (though the load ramps up too). The violet line going up to 15 means that the frequency setting changes on all four cylinders going through the calibrated rpm thresholds and this also temporarily triggers dynamic mode. The rpm climb you see from 123.5 to 127.5 is a rolling quick pull in the 2nd gear. The knock retard on one cylinder (others were 0) kicks in when the load touches on the target one (EDIT: the retard kicks in already when the load starts to climb, initially it goes up at a rate of 180%/s, yet no dynamic mode). And this is on E70!

What bothers me is ngas, the rpm gradient. the blue thing. It says somewhere in the FRs that it is measured every 10ms (so defo more than one time per engine rotation at these rpms), nevertheless, I do not see why it's spiked and why a rather smooth rpm line gives such gradient readings. I can also see that the n/a setting I quoted above would turn the dynamic mode on much more in the particular area.

Seriously curios now if that's the way it's supposed to be...?

EDIT 2: I also looked at some other bins from the  family. The n/a version has also the load thresholds for dynamic mode more or less at the half level of my ECU = goes into dynamic mode more likely. One of the SS bins though has the rpm threshold slightly lower, while the load thresholds are seriously higher (around twice as much in the lower rpm range).
« Last Edit: November 20, 2018, 01:47:07 PM by woj » Logged
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