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Author Topic: Golf R32, how to sort boost fueling..?  (Read 53743 times)
vwmaniac
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« Reply #15 on: January 14, 2017, 05:15:18 PM »

I have a 24v vr6 turbo file set up for 630s cc injectors and 4 in maf , would you be interested in looking at it, I believe it would help get you in the right direction
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Nick_T
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« Reply #16 on: January 15, 2017, 12:29:11 AM »

That would be REALLY amazing, yes please!!
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Nick_T
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« Reply #17 on: January 15, 2017, 12:58:49 AM »

I have my MAF scaled down by 25% and fueling scaled accordingly. When the turbo starts spooling my actual load peaks at 110, and then drops to around 94, excuse the spikey timing advance, that will be smoothed out in next map.

IMG_20170113_211550 by Nicholas Tolken, on Flickr

Im just confused from the IOP and IRL map as the desired load goes way above 100.

load defs by Nicholas Tolken, on Flickr
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Jim_Coupe
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« Reply #18 on: January 18, 2017, 05:03:51 AM »

Take a look in this thread:
http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?6858294-Let-s-talk-KFMIRL-aka-Target-Filling-Torque-maps

KFPED 111% = Stepdown function. You can make it 100% all at the top.

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jameswalker
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« Reply #19 on: January 18, 2017, 07:37:01 AM »

What ECU software and hardware versions do you have?
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Nick_T
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« Reply #20 on: January 18, 2017, 02:28:41 PM »

Shot Jim! Will have a look at it now!

Howsit James, Im not sure what u mean by hardware version but my ecu number is 022906032GK
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cherry
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« Reply #21 on: January 18, 2017, 05:51:26 PM »

Just a hint, your lambda sensors will die very soon, they will nearly melt where they are installed. And they will not work correct under pressure, 0,5bar -> 10% deviation! I donĀ“t know how much pressure you will have in manifold, but this is really not the best position.
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Jim_Coupe
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« Reply #22 on: January 19, 2017, 02:23:01 AM »

I have had mine there for 2 years. no problem yet. but i have only boosted mildly so far. I havent bothered to separate them yet. But the best way is to use one in down pipe...  But for the moment its ok to have them in manifold until you have sorted out the fueling..
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prj
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« Reply #23 on: January 19, 2017, 05:56:22 AM »

Can't really sort the fueling with them not reading right, can you?
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Nick_T
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« Reply #24 on: January 19, 2017, 07:00:35 AM »

Thanks for the headsup cherry! Ive seen the bigger turbo companies actually fitting them like that, hence why I copied them. Il stick a wideband in my DP next week and compare the two. Will let u guys know the results. Worst case il go mono lambda in my dp. No biggie.

Jim how much have you been boosting so far?
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TijnCU
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flying brick


« Reply #25 on: January 19, 2017, 08:16:48 AM »

Also a lot of big o2 sensor manufacturers recommend to place the sensor at least 20 inches after the turbo. I dont understand why you would want to install anything other than egt sensors before a turbo, when in doubt: copy OEM design!
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Nick_T
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« Reply #26 on: January 19, 2017, 10:05:42 AM »

Shot for the new info! Its really not a big deal to change it, other than the mono lambda mod.
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TijnCU
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flying brick


« Reply #27 on: January 19, 2017, 10:45:42 AM »

You can still use your bungs to fit egt sensors (maybe weld an insert to fit). I understand you want to have accurate data by measuring both sides of the bank, but as mentioned above, you are better off with 1 good reading sensor.
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RBPE
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« Reply #28 on: January 20, 2017, 01:48:28 PM »

Hmm. Let's look into it a bit;

The best place to measure the air/fuel as an accurate interpretation of lambda post combustion, is pretty much in the port or just entering the runner, obvious downside being the temperature of the gas and additional coking which would subsequently lead to maladjustments due to incorrect readings. There's also turbulent over laminar flow to consider and sensors being used, strategy taken etc.
First point then would be that on these conversions. Do you have your sensors nearer the ports than factory locations?

So turbulent v laminar flow and sensor location. Well, main thing is to understand that you want the best reading from 3 cylinders and as the oem ones, so first port of call is making sure that the sensor location is getting the full read of all cylinders it is supposed to, 2 front 1 back and vice versa, obv dep on manifold and that the location is sound. If you get turbulent flow at the collector location or any location which is the sampling point - well, nothing likes turbulent flow!
Thirdly, temp and coking. Well, simply put, you'll get more coking in the manifold so I'd check them more frequently so you don't get maladjustments happening due to bad readings.

Temp then, the bane of which people speak!
According to the 4.2 LSU documentation, the sensors can run sustained 930*C temps with a 1030*C max for short periods. I'm not sure of sensor differences but I'm inclined to believe these are applicable, at least for this example, for the mk5 R32, as the manifold lambda correction/BTS maps have a 900C limit;
mk5 R32 Stationary manifold exhaust gas correction by Rick B, on Flickr

Plenty of correction aspects you can play with in the later ecu's, can also do similar BTS in older ones, just not quite as detailed - Audi tend to get things 1st in their ecu's so age dep. really on yours on what maps are in, I've not turned it into a def file yet.
mk5 R32 Manifold exhaust gas 2 by Rick B, on Flickr

What is interesting to note also is the "hex temp" of 570C in that Bosch LSU doc and lo and behold there's a little sneaky map in the mk5's that accounts for that component protection too!
mk5 R32 Lam exh comp protection by Rick B, on Flickr

BUT.....you needn't piddle about with these things for a simple base map set up! Back on track;

When you underscaled your hfm did you check/make sure any representative maps were changed accordingly, check any possible MIL problems?
MLHFM & Min mass V6 R32 mk4 mk5 by Rick B, on Flickr

As any bendy intake VR6 12V owner will tell you, "these maf's don't like turbulent flow!" - which is why Bosch upgraded to the glass/ceramic substrate HFM 5 versions (if you're just looking into these things there's a guide I did from Bosch info in the noobs guides section, which explains how they started to upgrade things for evolutions from VR6 12V to R32 and the tuning basics) -so check your pulsations maps if you haven't done so already.

Let's see, what else - ignition is obviously different NA/FI and if anyone's reading is just setting out, I'd suggest looking at the ignition maps between various NA/FI vehicles of a similar nature to get an understanding. Main maps and, importantly, limit's as you are going to meet them at some point. I'd try and get a list of the min/max and representative values together as you'll need to change some of them at some point both at the start and as you tune - not just in ignition but every area really - a good def file will make things a lot easier!

Main thing with these is formulating a strategy and sticking to it. WDKSOM tells you about how it's all tied together somewhat, so you have DK (throttle angle), torque and idle - you're adding air, so look at all the luft/air maps to see what may or may not be applicable. I and others have mentioned above aspects to consider like the 02 sensor (ATM aspects), the usual injection but as you're essentially modelling this additional air/density what compensation aspects and BTS tuning do you need to think about? Ultimately anything sort of SY_TURBO based in the FS - just, do you need to do something when you can compensate for it?

I'm trying to get you into the habit of "systems thinking" so how are things connected, what do you have, what is missing, what build mods have you made over original, how can you compensate for those things etc?

So good def, ES/BTS/KR/ZU/LLR/DK - once you get your head around that, then what about part additions/delete's etc and what effect will they have?

After the simple flash side in those ways, then it's then onto choosing a different strategy, iop and hfm sensor extensions, patches if/as/when required (don't mix the strategies up, what seemed to be happening here) - then if you have a coding background, further reverse engineering/dissasembly and patching;
mk4 r32 pwm sfr registers by Rick B, on Flickr

I think what should be mentioned also as I have found, is the interaction between flashing/data modding tools and the various ecu's. There's 8 C167 revisions, 3 used on the 2.8-3.2 that I am aware of and tools seem to act differently in terms of data transferral, probably a crc thing, but some seem to be able to sort that out and transfer data and some would end up bypassing.

C167 CPU Layout by Rick B, on Flickr

 I put a "cheap tools" thread up in flashing area to try and see how the data takes a hold with them but most haven't gone this far, however I think testing things with max limit's like ignition angle, would give a good indication of flashing compatibility plus it's something needed. I'm interested in the electronic whizzes and those trying things with the cheaper tools and their turbo home brews to chip in.

Oh and P.S. - if you're rocking 2.8 24VT set ups, I'd look into a lot on flow, those little throttle body blades and smaller hfm's can cause limit problems far sooner than the R32's with their bigger set ups, take a look at flow across tb for example;
Flow across TB 032CP v BDE by Rick B, on Flickr

Anyway, my 2p, hope it helps!
« Last Edit: January 22, 2017, 04:53:53 AM by RBPE » Logged
Nick_T
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« Reply #29 on: January 22, 2017, 09:57:40 AM »

RBPE...You are a flipping champion, thank you so much for actually putting in so much effort to help! It actually made me realize how many maps im really missing in my map pack! Definitely not going to be making lots of power with the maps that i have available, but nevertheless i will hunt them down and if i dont come right, i will just have to pay someone else again for more map definitions.

So far i have done the bare minimal, but the car is actually pulling really well, and idle and part throttle is fine. Plenty minor tweaks still needed, but nothing that prevents me from driving the car, as its also my daily work car. So i load a new map in the morning, drive and log it for the day, and then do a new revision that evening. So i try change as few maps as i can, so i can see what affects it actually has.

So far the maps that i have changed:

KRKTE, scaled that to my 100mm maf housing.
TVUB
RLFS, i made all 1's as i put a fuel return line in.
KFKHFM, they are all still 1's, i havent started dialing the corrections in yet.
FKKVS, i made them all 1's.
MLHFM, i scaled down before i put the larger maf housing in, to get my load lower.
KFZW maps, ive dropped the advance in full load etc
KFMLDMX, increased limits

I dont have all my LAMFA maps, so ive resorted to BTS fueling for now.

TABGBTS, TKABTS, TIKABTS, dropped to 550 degrees.
KFLBTS
FBSTABGM
KFFDLBTS - I havent changed yet as i cant find the map, will try again tonight, so my AFR's are not exactly what im requesting obviously, but they aren't far off.

Ive also done a few deletes, tried to increase my rpm limiter with no success yet. The only definitions that I have are these:

NMAXOG
NMAXF
NAMXGA
NMAXOGGA

Under WOT the advance is average of 21 BTDC, zero timing pull, 12.2 afr, load peaks to 100 at spool and drops to 90.

Loving the car lol

I will update, going to start playing the load maps now to see what happens Roll Eyes

Thanks again!



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