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Author Topic: Opinions: using KFLBTS vs LAMFA for fuel all the time?  (Read 384242 times)
prj
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« Reply #120 on: February 01, 2012, 05:42:39 AM »

This is what I dont get: how does going super rich protect the turbos Smiley
Let's talk a little bit about EGT in an engine, look at how the engine operates from factory and why LAMBTS is used to protect the turbos.
EGT is highly dependent on two things - spark timing and air fuel ratio.

Stock, the car spends most of it's operating time at Lambda=1, to produce the least possible emissions.
As it happens, peak EGT also occurs at lambda=1.
I already talked about flame front speed before. A faster burn while maintaining the same ignition timing is pretty much equivalent to advancing timing.

LAMBTS in a stock RS4 tune enriches roughly to lean best torque or 13.3.
This enrichment has the following consequences:
1. The flame speed increases (same as advancing timing a little)
2. We get further away from EGT peak (going both leaner and richer than 14.7 gives you lower EGT's, but richer is more effective).
3. We also can further advance timing because the additional fuel provides a cooling effect for the cylinder inhibiting knock.
4. Cooling the cylinder charge with additional fuel also means cooler combustion.

So, the way it is implemented stock, it is incredibly effective at lowering EGT when compared to operating at Lambda=1.
Think how the ECU is calibrated from factory. Emissions are king, so it is calibrated for Lambda = 1, thus what it does with BTS is protecting the turbos first and foremost.
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s5fourdoor
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« Reply #121 on: February 01, 2012, 11:45:38 AM »

KFLBTS, the component protection afr table, is on the standard m-box.  However, I can't find it on the RS4 F-box that I have.  Any thoughts?
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prj
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« Reply #122 on: February 02, 2012, 07:37:45 AM »

0x19327 in F-box. The F-box map pack posted on here is missing about 200-300 maps.
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New2Tune
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« Reply #123 on: February 02, 2012, 09:37:35 AM »

I believe the peak EGT occurs under slightly lean conditions.  One of the reasons the factory aims for stoich is that while going leaner can increase gas mileage/efficiency the excess heat favors the formation of NOx and is an emissions no no.

A big effect of going rich as you pointed out is the large quantity of "cold" fuel being pumped into the system, and I think that is largely why it is so effective (conceptually for cooling/protection) because you have all those liquid droplets evaporating and that phase change takes a good bit of energy out of the process.
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prj
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« Reply #124 on: February 03, 2012, 12:28:35 PM »

I believe the peak EGT occurs under slightly lean conditions.  One of the reasons the factory aims for stoich is that while going leaner can increase gas mileage/efficiency the excess heat favors the formation of NOx and is an emissions no no.
Actually EGT gets lower as you get away from Stoich...
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julex
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« Reply #125 on: February 07, 2012, 03:39:46 PM »

I am following Tony's strategy by attempting to tune AFRs by using knock lambda control KFLAMKRL and KFLAMKR (kinda, don't have address for this table for mbox) and I run into interesting "problem".

First, I adjusted the table axis for different loads (higher range) and different knock amounts (first row is now 0.0).

It seems that regardless of  knock severity (run into -6.0 on dwkrz_ variables), it never follows any other than "0.0" row path regardless of retardation amount.

This makes me think that the table is not what we think it is... and he only way to control the LAMBDA is on 0.0 knock path but at least we then have load at out disposition unlike LAMFA.

Any clarification on this?

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Tony@NefMoto
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« Reply #126 on: February 07, 2012, 04:05:42 PM »

Lambda target from knock system is calculated as: (KFLAMKRL + DLAMTANS) * KFLAMKR

If I recall correctly KFLAMKR is only non-zero in a small range in its stock form.
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julex
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« Reply #127 on: February 07, 2012, 04:31:19 PM »

are you tuning using this strategy or is this old news?

what is the kflamkr map address then? is there any way to force the ecu to amp the input kr values (I will log it tomorrow to see what wkrma shows)?
« Last Edit: February 07, 2012, 06:46:27 PM by julex » Logged
Tony@NefMoto
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« Reply #128 on: February 07, 2012, 08:16:35 PM »

are you tuning using this strategy or is this old news?

what is the kflamkr map address then? is there any way to force the ecu to amp the input kr values (I will log it tomorrow to see what wkrma shows)?

Posted map address here: http://nefariousmotorsports.com/forum/index.php?topic=200.0

The NefMoto Stage 3 Base tune uses this strategy, and it is what I run in my car.
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nyet
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« Reply #129 on: February 07, 2012, 09:52:44 PM »

Stupid question (KR enrich is a new topic to me)

Is KR enrich multiplicative to LAMFA, or is it just a matter of the lower one wins (like LAMFA vs BTS)?
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nyet
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« Reply #130 on: February 07, 2012, 10:03:33 PM »

Hrm. My reading of the FR is that lamfa = MIN(lamfaws,lamfawkr) (among other mins)...
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Tony@NefMoto
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« Reply #131 on: February 07, 2012, 10:39:31 PM »

Stupid question (KR enrich is a new topic to me)

Is KR enrich multiplicative to LAMFA, or is it just a matter of the lower one wins (like LAMFA vs BTS)?

The richest lambda target is what is used.
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julex
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« Reply #132 on: February 08, 2012, 07:17:08 AM »

I did some logging last night to figure out why KFLAMKRL follows only 0.0 knock path regardless of what is really happening in the engine (knocking) and I found out the below:

dwkrz_0   dwkrz_1   dwkrz_2   dwkrz_3   dwkrz_4   dwkrz_5   zwout   wkrm   wkrma   dzwlamfaw   lamsbg_w
-2.25      -2.25         -2.25      -4.5         -3.75      -2.25         12         -2.25   -2.25      0            0.833253


As you can see, with the fair amount of knock, the ECU outputs wkrma=2.25 but then dzwlamfaw used for knock regulated lambda is 0...

I look at Funktionsrahmen and it looks like diagram on page 1022, specifically second diagram from bottom, shows how dzwlamfaw is calculated. The last Min(0, wkrma) calculation leaves no doubt that the dzwlamfaw will always be zero since it is a positive value in ECU?

This function also adds dzwwl to wkrma before the MIN(0,wkrma) but isn't dzwwl a warmup related variable?

I have a feeling that this path only applies to LAMBDA knock regulation during warmup and is otherwise inactive... But please correct as I am always wrong Smiley
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phila_dot
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« Reply #133 on: February 08, 2012, 07:50:07 AM »

IIRC dzwwl is calculated from two maps, one based on RPM and coolant temp (warm up), and one based on RPM and IAT. It is not only active during warm up.
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julex
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« Reply #134 on: February 08, 2012, 08:27:25 AM »

This bit might explain what's going on:

CWLAMFAW Bit0:
0: dzwlamfaw = min ( 0, dzwwl)
1: dzwlamfaw = min ( 0, (dzwwl + wkrma) )

Defaultwert = 0.

I think I stumbled upon the reason why it doesn't work the way it should work. I appears that in all the tunes I have OLS files for (someobyd get m-box OLS finally!), the CWLAMFAW is set to "0000000000010000" or ""0000000000000000" which means that bit0 is set to "0".

This forces the dzwwl ONLY path. If we can find where CWLAMFAW sits in M-box (assembly gurus to rescue here please!) and flip bit0 to 1, the actual average knock will now we taken under consideration and perhaps map utilized to its full potential.



« Last Edit: February 08, 2012, 08:33:37 AM by julex » Logged
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