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Author Topic: Opinions: using KFLBTS vs LAMFA for fuel all the time?  (Read 385292 times)
julex
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« Reply #225 on: February 21, 2012, 09:37:33 AM »

I reset KFKHFM to "1.0" everywhere,  interpolated "by hand" the table for KFLF using excel "paste special" and "multiply". Load and RPM are close enough. Resulting table looked ok so I loaded it in and proceed to logg the car. I ssed Nyet's Ecux Plot to graph the session (awesome!) and see lambda behavior and sure enough. In spots I initially saw as suspect where S4's table dips in the middle of otherwise normal values, the fueling goes off the track and corrections are made.

Nothing drastic though, it never goes beyond short term +-10% so my long term corrections stay +-1% from 0... I compared the spots I noticed being off in logs to new KFLF map and long and behold, the weird odd values in few spots are responsible for these near 10% corrections...  then proceeded to review the shape of map and compare it to RS4. The aforementioned dips are not in RS4 tune so I smoother the S4 map following the RS4's principle and the car is super smooth now.

This kind of proves the point imho that the more we unravel  US 2.7t, the more dirty laundry we expose.
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nyet
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« Reply #226 on: February 21, 2012, 10:20:50 AM »

julex: i'm working on implementing a heatmap grapher for x,y,z data that might help.

it wont be 3d, because heatmaps are easier to generate Smiley
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s5fourdoor
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« Reply #227 on: February 21, 2012, 02:12:16 PM »

This kind of proves the point imho that the more we unravel  US 2.7t, the more dirty laundry we expose.

Ok, so are you saying the suggested method I thought of seems to have improved the fueling accuracy?  If I'm understanding correctly, then we've made a big step here in refining the tuning procedure for fueling (which we all know is near the beginning of a new tune's calibration.)

Anxious to hear your response, lol.
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julex
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« Reply #228 on: February 22, 2012, 11:37:43 AM »

Accuracy? Not likely since now I am using only one map with arguably lower resolution (KFLF). Maybe using KFKHFM would give more resolution but adjusting that map also directly affects load ECU is seeing.
Simplified? Hell yeah. You see how the fueling behaves by looking just at one map instead of going back and forth between two maps.
Does it work? Yes, very well. Just like on RS4.

Previously you could not just follow KFKHFM or KFLF and assume that if a given cell dips in value, the multiplicative product does the same as frequently a corresponding cell in the other map would go up and vice versa.

You have to keep in mind my special circumstances though. I am not running stock intake. I am not even running original Hitachi MAF. I am running custom intake comprising of AEM cone filter embedded in daringtaked stock S4 air box, 3.5" aluminum tubing for mustang 90mm MAF and HPX MAF element. From there it becomes "stock" RS4 accordion hose and then normal allroad/S4 intake to K04s and rest is pretty much stock.

You have to keep one thing in mind though. Audi felt that it is ok to not use KFKHFM table for RS4 equipped with "just" 82mm (or whatever it is) bosch maf and regulate any irregularities of engine fueling exclusively via KFLF map.


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nyet
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« Reply #229 on: February 22, 2012, 12:20:49 PM »

IMO they realized that having an accurate load just isn't that important EXCEPT for open loop fueling...

i think with a proper wideband setup, almost none of these crazy corrections would be necessary.
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s5fourdoor
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« Reply #230 on: February 22, 2012, 01:42:36 PM »

IMO they realized that having an accurate load just isn't that important EXCEPT for open loop fueling...

i think with a proper wideband setup, almost none of these crazy corrections would be necessary.

So is this thread going to pioneer the integration of a WBO2 sensor now as well?  Tongue
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nyet
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« Reply #231 on: February 22, 2012, 02:57:06 PM »

I would absolutely LOVE to have that!
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rajivc666
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« Reply #232 on: February 26, 2012, 02:03:28 PM »

I saw some Audi TT CB box maps where KFLBTS is all 1. So how is this box providing enrichment at higher loads other than through kfdlbts and kffdlbts (which i guess is active only when the engine knocks).KFLAMKRL and  KFLAMKR also is all 1. So what if there is no knocking.
Also supposing my FBSTABGM = 0.5, kflbts = 0.7 , kffdlbts = 0.6, Kfdlbts = -0.64 ,how will I calculate my LAMBTS.
Thanks
« Last Edit: February 26, 2012, 02:05:24 PM by rajivc666 » Logged
robin
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« Reply #233 on: February 26, 2012, 04:04:31 PM »

The 0 CF row will define your fueling if no knock.
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julex
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« Reply #234 on: February 26, 2012, 05:47:26 PM »

The 0 CF row will define your fueling if no knock.

Lot's of people seem to be not understanding this very crucial piece of info. Smiley. This is what makes fueling via KR viable as main fueling path.
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robin
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« Reply #235 on: February 26, 2012, 05:54:01 PM »

Yes, I can't imagine anyone thinking this was working properly when seeing lambda 1 until you hit CF activity or your EGT target. It's working nicely in my tune now, I like it. I still think LAMFA has it's place at higher RPM points where load transitions happen very quickly under fast shifting.
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julex
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« Reply #236 on: February 26, 2012, 06:29:30 PM »

dunno about that. The fact is that you can only shift from higher to lower load in an instant. The other way around takes time. However, even if true, you're assuming ECU is somehow lagging in its load calculations which if true, would ruin your engine many times over to date.

The ECU calculates load out of mainly MAF flow and then does some modeling as to how all that air behaves before it even reaches our cylinder. Injection time is also a real time calculation affair which is calculated by looking at air flow and tons of other variables including all the lambda paths. Simply there is no such thing like fueling "lag" which you're trying to use as an excuse to employ LAMFA.

I used LAMFA only for couple of days and not as main focus of fueling effort (only to pre-fuel the engine when testing KR feling), like you are trying to, and I believe that I could not really use it properly as that map seemed to fall victim of multi-point interpolation where I wasn't getting as low of a Lambda as I wanted in my table but something higher slowly falling with time spent at the driver's requested load level. Many maps don't use absolute values at a given point of table but are interpolated and mean weighted with the adjacent points so if your LAMFA falls to say 0.75 at 100%, it won't immediately dump 0.75 value into Lambda path once you hit 100% driver load  but will actually lag and gradually approach the 0.75 you want. But it might take a while.

Again, that was my observation, I believe, but maybe I am all wrong about LAMFA after all. It just has no use anymore with "0.00" knock path in KR lambda

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robin
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« Reply #237 on: February 26, 2012, 08:19:02 PM »

Sorry, I know the ECU isn't 'lagging', my word choice was poor. When desired lambda goes to a rich target *before* the load hits hard, wouldn't the transition be weighted more than not?
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julex
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« Reply #238 on: February 26, 2012, 08:40:24 PM »

The question is why do you want to go rich BEFORE load ramps up uncontrollably at that (because you will set the fueling blindly without any knowledge of actual fueling conditions) and not DURING the load ramp up... All you need is DURING - hopefully controlled so that you get as close to 12.6 as you can where you get best torque out of cylinder.

But to each their own. I like the KR because it allows some degree of flexibility for ECU to choose the highest AFR, table allowing, not just bringing everything to lowest denominator of "worst case scenario (lowest) AFR I feel safe with" as other ways of fueling usually are set up.
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nyet
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« Reply #239 on: February 26, 2012, 09:41:41 PM »

two words.

91 oct
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Please do not ask me for tunes. I'm here to help people make their own.

Do not PM me technical questions! Please, ask all questions on the forums! Doing so will ensure the next person with the same issue gets the opportunity to learn from your ex
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