NefMoto > Technical > Reverse Engineering > DIY TCU controller
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Author Topic: DIY TCU controller  (Read 14440 times)
fknbrkn
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mk4 1.8T AUM
« Reply #15 on: March 30, 2022, 12:30:29 AM »
Mdnorm
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prj
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« Reply #16 on: March 30, 2022, 06:32:14 AM »
Quote from: fukenbroken on March 30, 2022, 12:30:29 AM
Mdnorm
Changing it will not do anything whatsoever as microslip adjuster will re-adapt at the operating points and result in the exact same pressure as before.
IRL/IOP must be linear and represent actual torque output. If they are all out of shape, then this is what causes issues.
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BlackT
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« Reply #17 on: March 30, 2022, 07:32:34 AM »
My trans slip and bounce about 0-160 rpm in slight acceleration  below 2000 rpm
I have 3 DTC: for missing Electric parking brake, getway and accelerarion request(something about cruise) I will do full scan and post it here

I was wondering can trans start adataption if have these DTC?
So I figure out to raise pressure to clutch (I see it is realatated to input TQ) sending more TQ via can-bus. But as you say it didn't make any difference

Quote from: prj on March 30, 2022, 06:32:14 AM

IRL/IOP must be linear and represent actual torque output. If they are all out of shape, then this is what causes issues.
To avoid that I allready put stock file on car, only emmision dellete
« Last Edit: March 30, 2022, 07:59:20 AM by BlackT » Logged
BlackT
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« Reply #18 on: March 30, 2022, 09:42:38 AM »
Quote from: fukenbroken on March 30, 2022, 12:30:29 AM
Mdnorm

thank you  Wink
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prj
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« Reply #19 on: March 30, 2022, 11:24:10 AM »
Except changing that value will not do anything. It will grab a bit harder for max half an hour, probably even less, re-adapt the 200nm point, and be back to exactly the same as before.
If you have stock file on the controller, just do TCU adaptation.

Did you even check what the stallspeed is in your TCU file? Can be easily 1800-2000 on harder throttle push on some DQ250 variants, especially diesel ones.
You are making a ton of assumption without understanding what the issue is. Changing MDNORM has never any positive effect on transmission operation.

While it is true that changing it you can show more torque in linear fashion to transmission, it has no effect how much torque you show to DQ250, the only important part is that it is linear throughout the range.
It is not like a ZF auto trans where there are maps for pressure based on engine torque. Almost nothing is done based on the absolute torque figure in the VAG DSG gearboxes. It simply does not matter. The only thing that matters is that it is not bent.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2022, 11:28:34 AM by prj » Logged
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BlackT
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« Reply #20 on: March 30, 2022, 12:37:29 PM »
But this is ZF6HP trans, N371 change pressure with torque. But after raising mlhfm for 10% and mdnorm from 600nm to 800nm didn't make much difference. I would say it is little better but far from ideal. maybe TQ is so bad that slip all time. I want to eliminate software problem before I dissamble gearbox. gerabox and tq are from junkyard so I dont have hystory of it. But it schould be about 250k km and this tq are know to fail at this milage

Code:
Wednesday,30,March,2022,21:24:07:32264
VCDS Version: Release 11.11.3
Data version: 20120401


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Chassis Type: 4B - Audi A6 C5
Scan: 01 02
 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 01: Engine        Labels: 078-907-551-AZA.lbl
   Part No: 4Z7 907 551 D
   Component: 2.7l V6/5VT         0001  
   Coding: 10752
   Shop #: WSC 87119  
   VCID: 448D52C95480FE9
   WAUZZZ4BZ1N140396     AUZ7Z0A1796323

No fault code found.
Readiness: 0010 0100

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 02: Auto Trans        Labels: 09L-927-760.lbl
   Part No SW: 4F1 910 156 G    HW: 09L 927 156 
   Component: AG6 09L 4.2L5V RdW  0070  
   Revision: --H01---    Serial number:        0027597
   Coding: 0000001
   Shop #: WSC 02327 785 00200
   VCID: 2855E6799BE83A9

3 Faults Found:
18289 - Powertrain Data Bus: Missing Message 
            P1881 - 000 - Acceleration Request
             Freeze Frame:
                    Fault Status: 01110000
                    Fault Priority: 0
                    Fault Frequency: 1
                    Reset counter: 40
                    Mileage: 0 km
                    Time Indication: 0

             Freeze Frame:
                    RPM: 0 /min
                    RPM: 0 /min
                    RPM: 0 /min
                    (no units): 30.0
                    (no units): 54.0
                    Temperature: 48.0°C
                    T.B. Angle: 0.0°

18290 - Powertrain Data Bus 
            P1882 - 000 - Missing Message from Electric Parking Brake Controller
             Freeze Frame:
                    Fault Status: 01110000
                    Fault Priority: 0
                    Fault Frequency: 1
                    Reset counter: 40
                    Mileage: 0 km
                    Time Indication: 0

18288 - Powertrain Data Bus 
            P1880 - 000 - Missing Message from Diagnostic Gateway
             Freeze Frame:
                    Fault Status: 01110000
                    Fault Priority: 0
                    Fault Frequency: 1
                    Reset counter: 40
                    Mileage: 0 km
                    Time Indication: 0


End   ---------------------------------------------------------------------
« Last Edit: March 30, 2022, 12:42:45 PM by BlackT » Logged
BlackT
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« Reply #21 on: March 30, 2022, 12:44:53 PM »
and this is after raising MDNORM
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prj
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« Reply #22 on: March 31, 2022, 04:03:19 AM »
Ah, sorry, if it is ZF6HP you are talking about then yes, increasing MDNORM will increase all shift pressures.
For some reason I thought this is about DQ250. But you should not need to do this.

About the gearbox.
If you have problems with torque converter slip oscillating in steady state (mostly can be seen in 6th gear driving on highway with cruise control) then most likely you just need the converter rebuilt, this is a typical problem on ZF6HP. They all start to do that when they are old.
The torque converter slip is regulated to a target slippage in closed loop, the torque is mostly irrelevant, it is only looking at the slip and then regulating it...
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fknbrkn
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mk4 1.8T AUM
« Reply #23 on: March 31, 2022, 04:50:33 AM »
Keep in mind that there is a 630nm limit in canbus
If you set mdnorm value above this limit, ecu halves it value  at canbus and iirc (it was few months ago and i didnt remember all details) trigger somewhere a corresponding bit.
But when we plays with dsg+me7 it wont. Dsg saw exactly halved value (its for research purpose. No need to point me at 450nm hardcode limit and microslip things Roll Eyes )
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BlackT
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« Reply #24 on: March 31, 2022, 06:14:13 AM »
ZF 6HP now see bigger TQ, you can see above in attachment. Same driving mode but trans see more TQ.
But I dont like to do things like this, it was only for research and to save trans if it can't make adataption by itself until I get rid of this 3 DTC.

Shiffting above 2000 rpm is ideal and fast. But all problems I have is under 2000 rpm. Also when TC is locked at highway under 6th speed it stil slip about 32-64 rpm. Under full throotle it does not slip

Can I use TC from 3.0TDI? Beacuse this 4.2 TC doesn't not have some damping effect, and I have really bad vibration in low rpms under load.  If I use Torque connverter from 3.2 FSI I am not sure will it hold torque than 2.7 produce (K04)?
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prj
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« Reply #25 on: March 31, 2022, 08:43:29 AM »
Torque converter has different stall speeds and you are not going to be able to easily recalibrate it in the software.
If you want it to shift differently, instead of fucking with MDNORM just adjust the shift pressures for oncoming clutch and the ramp rates.

And just repair the current torque converter, sounds like it's hosed from what you describe.
You will not have somehow less vibration if you use a 3.0 TDI one...

And also as was said above, do NOT change MDNORM higher than 600nm (630 to be exact) on ME7.
« Last Edit: March 31, 2022, 08:45:26 AM by prj » Logged
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BlackT
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« Reply #26 on: March 31, 2022, 09:19:40 AM »
Quote from: prj on March 31, 2022, 08:43:29 AM
Torque converter has different stall speeds and you are not going to be able to easily recalibrate it in the software.
If you want it to shift differently, instead of fucking with MDNORM just adjust the shift pressures for oncoming clutch and the ramp rates.

And just repair the current torque converter, sounds like it's hosed from what you describe.
You will not have somehow less vibration if you use a 3.0 TDI one...

And also as was said above, do NOT change MDNORM higher than 600nm (630 to be exact) on ME7.
I am okay how trans shift,  problem comes when torque converter is in regulation phase. Then rpm bounce, but not only bounce when rpm drop the whole car start to vibrate. Similar when on manual cars the presure plate does not have flatt surface and you are relaseing clutch. Or double mass flywheel is stuck.
That vibration happen in every gear from 1000 to 1800 rpm, special uphill , if I hit full throtte it vibrate so much that whole car is shaking.
It is like something is not in balance, so if my converter does not have this TDD(described in SSP I put in attachmet above) because it is frkm 4.2 V8 than reparing this TC will solve bounce and slip, but not vibrations.
And that is reason why I want to put TC from V6 engine

I saw that 630Nm limit in FR but anywhay I tried to put it to 800 and it worked. Trans see bigger TQ

EDIT: here is proof, engine have stock map only changing MDNORM from 600 to 800

Edit 2: some facts:
1. I have Changed oil and filter in trans
2. After that I need to reset adataptions and trams will adapt by iself depending how worn it is
3. According to SSP transsmision will not start adataption as long there is a DTC in transsmision
4. I have dtc for can-bus getway,parking brake and ACC that I don't have time to solve right now
5. Until I don't solve this dtc and transsmision can start adataption I need car and I wanted to fix problem temoraly by raising  pressure(torque on can-bus)
5. It is better, from 240 rpm slip now I am at 120 rpm slip maximum.

But after all investigation I will need to rebuild TC and I can only hope that vibration is caused by worn out friction plate that closes TC

Edit 3: same throttle, slight acceleration https://youtu.be/xQkWqPVUbG0
« Last Edit: March 31, 2022, 10:45:12 AM by BlackT » Logged
prj
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« Reply #27 on: April 01, 2022, 05:09:19 AM »
Quote from: BlackT on March 31, 2022, 09:19:40 AM
I am okay how trans shift,  problem comes when torque converter is in regulation phase. Then rpm bounce, but not only bounce when rpm drop the whole car start to vibrate. Similar when on manual cars the presure plate does not have flatt surface and you are relaseing clutch. Or double mass flywheel is stuck.
That vibration happen in every gear from 1000 to 1800 rpm, special uphill , if I hit full throtte it vibrate so much that whole car is shaking.
It is like something is not in balance, so if my converter does not have this TDD(described in SSP I put in attachmet above) because it is frkm 4.2 V8 than reparing this TC will solve bounce and slip, but not vibrations.
And that is reason why I want to put TC from V6 engine
Your description is exactly what happens when TC need rebuild. The vibration is just already extreme phase of damage...
Quote
I saw that 630Nm limit in FR but anywhay I tried to put it to 800 and it worked. Trans see bigger TQ
Yes it will work until you hit over 630nm torque in engine. Then torque will jump from 630nm to 316nm in 1 millisecond. Do you think the trans will be happy? Smiley
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Norwegian1.8T
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« Reply #28 on: April 01, 2022, 10:00:16 AM »
Quote from: BlackT on March 31, 2022, 09:19:40 AM

But after all investigation I will need to rebuild TC and I can only hope that vibration is caused by worn out friction plate that closes TC


I had the exact same symptoms on an ZF6HP, a new converter was all it needed but i highly recommend you to check and/or replace the bushes. They are not expensive but you do need to tear down the whole transmission.
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BlackT
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« Reply #29 on: April 01, 2022, 10:26:00 AM »
Quote from: prj on April 01, 2022, 05:09:19 AM
Your description is exactly what happens when TC need rebuild. The vibration is just already extreme phase of damage...

Yes it will work until you hit over 630nm torque in engine. Then torque will jump from 630nm to 316nm in 1 millisecond. Do you think the trans will be happy? Smiley
Good you tell me that before I raise power in engine.
But still this hack with MDNORM can be useful when I put nitrous.
With K04 I am not going to make more than 500Nm after 5000 rpm, so at this point I can make custom function when I hit nitrous to raise MDNORM
Only thinking out loud
First I need to rebuild trans, thank you all, now is not problem when I know what to do. Also now when I figure out how to match ecu and trans maybe I wil go to 6hp26(If can fit in C5) Smiley

Quote from: Norwegian1.8T on April 01, 2022, 10:00:16 AM
I had the exact same symptoms on an ZF6HP, a new converter was all it needed but i highly recommend you to check and/or replace the bushes. They are not expensive but you do need to tear down the whole transmission.
thank you will do that
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