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Author Topic: Fuel pump differences with stock 4 bar FPR  (Read 21995 times)
rnagy86
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« on: June 02, 2012, 02:12:55 AM »

Hey,

I've run into the issue of running very rich (block 032 shows -1% at idle and -13% and -16% partial) with all of the tunes I've been trying and I wonder if a a high-flow fuel pump has any relation to pumping more fuel into the system.
The thing is I have an Aeromotive 340 fuel pump which by their description should flow 30% more fuel at the same pressure so if I am not mistaken there would be way more fuel sprayed by the injectors with this pump and a stock fuel pump at the same injector opening times?

Thanks for the input.
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prj
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« Reply #1 on: June 02, 2012, 02:26:46 PM »

You have a FPR so pressure should be constant at 4 bar.
Check your pressure with a gauge.

It is possible your FPR or fuel return is inadequate/borked so that your actual pressure is going higher.
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ottomatic612
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« Reply #2 on: June 02, 2012, 09:45:48 PM »

Not all pumps flow the same at the same fuel pressure. Its like comparing a k03 to a rs6 turbo. @ 20lbs of boost the rs6 turbo will have more flow compared to the k03 @ 20lbs. Same idea with the fuel pumps. You will need to tune for the specific fueling setup.
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prj
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« Reply #3 on: June 03, 2012, 12:48:05 AM »

Not all pumps flow the same at the same fuel pressure. Its like comparing a k03 to a rs6 turbo. @ 20lbs of boost the rs6 turbo will have more flow compared to the k03 @ 20lbs. Same idea with the fuel pumps. You will need to tune for the specific fueling setup.

Everything you said in this post is wrong.
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guille_masco
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« Reply #4 on: June 04, 2012, 10:27:07 AM »

Not all pumps flow the same at the same fuel pressure. Its like comparing a k03 to a rs6 turbo. @ 20lbs of boost the rs6 turbo will have more flow compared to the k03 @ 20lbs. Same idea with the fuel pumps. You will need to tune for the specific fueling setup.

Wrong. If your FPR works good, you will never have more than 4bar at the inyectors. doesnt matter the fuel pump capabilities. Check the presure with a gauge to check if the FPR works good, then check your tune.
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julex
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« Reply #5 on: June 04, 2012, 10:50:11 AM »

Not all pumps flow the same at the same fuel pressure. Its like comparing a k03 to a rs6 turbo. @ 20lbs of boost the rs6 turbo will have more flow compared to the k03 @ 20lbs. Same idea with the fuel pumps. You will need to tune for the specific fueling setup.

You are a little bit right but your conclusions are completely wrong.

It is true that pump's MAXIMUM flow differs between fuel pumps at a given pressure. "MAXIMUM" is the important word here. The pump always pumps at 100% of its flow at a current fuel rail pressure which is regulated by FPR installed in fuel rail. From there, the injectors dictate how much fuel is injected into cylinders and the rest of fuel is returned back to the fuel tank.

So long the fuel pump can flow enough for a given fuel rail pressure, it doesn't matter how much it actually can flow. If 100 l/h is needed and your pump does just that, 100 l/h or 1000 l/h, the system will not see any less or more fuel injected since the pressure will remain constant.

Now, you said that you tried numerous tunes and have the same problem. Are you injectos the same as the tune is using? The only reason I could think of why you could see much more at part throttle but almost perfect at idle completely incompatible tunes for your injectors' TVUB/KRKTE values. E.g. your injectors flow much more than KRKTE in tune indicates with large enough TVUB to mask this fact at idle... but rearing its ugly head in part throttle where KRKTE weighs much more in calculating fuel mass.


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20VTMK1
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« Reply #6 on: June 04, 2012, 12:43:13 PM »

Assuming this is a turbo charged car , a boost leak will cause the trims to go south as well 
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rnagy86
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« Reply #7 on: June 04, 2012, 02:01:43 PM »

Well I am running brand new 630cc siemens deka IV injectors with a brand new set of primary o2s and 85mm maf. First we tought that my maf is on its way out so i tried with 2 other ones with no change. Then i replaced the o2 sensors to rule that out as well. Same results with both tony's base tune and berttos' file as well so it has to be hardware related. My FPR is regulating the system to 4.1-4.15 bar according to the gauge and I wonder if that would make much difference and give me about -10% partial values. Any ideas what else could it be, other than the return line being clogged?  Cry
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rnagy86
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« Reply #8 on: June 04, 2012, 02:02:46 PM »

Assuming this is a turbo charged car , a boost leak will cause the trims to go south as well 

No boost or vacuum leak at all. I pressure test the system every weekend...
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rnagy86
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« Reply #9 on: June 05, 2012, 03:42:01 AM »

Meh I constantly fail not to spam the forum, but I forgot to share the logs after the O2 swap and driving around for 30 km.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AhrG40GHpr-hdF9KTlhUd0VQZ2N1NmJ2d3JDMk5MSXc
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nyet
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« Reply #10 on: June 05, 2012, 09:18:09 AM »

please post the original .csvs and/or ECUxPlot graphs
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ME7.1 tuning guide
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rnagy86
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« Reply #11 on: June 06, 2012, 05:22:38 AM »

please post the original .csvs and/or ECUxPlot graphs
I've only have the block 032 and 033 logs at the moment of a 30km drive. I won't be able to do any ME7Logger logging until tomorrow because I blew one of my IC hoses off.
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rnagy86
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« Reply #12 on: June 11, 2012, 01:50:27 PM »

Okay I managed to do some logging with ME7Logger now which includes different WOT and cruising logs in different gears.
Please have a look.

Thanks
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nyet
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« Reply #13 on: June 11, 2012, 02:41:56 PM »

Please get a single 3rd gear pull from 2500 to redline WOT.. thanks

From what i can tell though, your fueling looks fine post trim (req afr vs o2 voltages) but it is hard to say w/o wideband logs.

All i can think of is your old fueling had issues.

I'd just pull 10% out of KRKTE or MLHFM and see what happens.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2012, 02:45:54 PM by nyet » Logged

ME7.1 tuning guide
ECUx Plot
ME7Sum checksum
Trim heatmap tool

Please do not ask me for tunes. I'm here to help people make their own.

Do not PM me technical questions! Please, ask all questions on the forums! Doing so will ensure the next person with the same issue gets the opportunity to learn from your ex
rnagy86
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« Reply #14 on: June 12, 2012, 06:24:28 AM »

Please get a single 3rd gear pull from 2500 to redline WOT.. thanks

From what i can tell though, your fueling looks fine post trim (req afr vs o2 voltages) but it is hard to say w/o wideband logs.

All i can think of is your old fueling had issues.

I'd just pull 10% out of KRKTE or MLHFM and see what happens.

I've attached the requested WOT log. There is some cruising in the beginning because I am not able to connect ME7Logger to a running a engine.
Anyways my WOT AFR was 11ish all the way, and my LTFT's are 0.2% -8.6% -0.2% -11.7%.

What I noticed is that when i clear fuel trims, they go down to about -3% and then they suddenly drop down to -10% after a couple of minutes of driving, and Bank2 is always the one that starts to fall first and I guess it pulls the other Bank with itself? The other thing is that I think i have some misfires at really low rpms (<2000) and I am not sure if it is caused by the rich mixture itself or it is the cause of it (all coils and spark plugs are new). I also wonder if a small exhaust leak on bank2 before the primary O2s would make it read a lean mixture and then the ECU would compensate for it? But I guess in that case my idle trims would be rich as well.

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