marantzvieta
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« on: July 21, 2022, 08:57:22 AM »
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Hi everybody, I have started a complete (not yet tho lol) guide for understanding the M3.8.X POS as a lot of information is spread everywhere, and for someone like me that a few months ago had absolutely no clue how this worked, it's been a bit of a nightmare to get started with this ecu. Link below: http://nefariousmotorsports.com/forum/index.php?topic=20919.0 - As you can see in the post, the ecu and software number i pretend to start from are 8D0907558E - 0261204805I've been gathering information about how to start with a simple Stage 1 tune, and from several sources have found different lists of maps that should be modified. I'm looking for a good list to have a startpoint in order to compare 150 with 180 oem files, other stage 1 files that fly through the internet, and start learning which changes should be made and the correct methods and order to execute them. So here are the lists and I'm asking if people with experience can validate the correct maps that should be considered to study for the most correct Stage 1 tune. I just need the best startpoint possible and I'll keep on from there.
Thank you very much in advance.http://nefariousmotorsports.com/forum/index.php?topic=2013.0KFLF KFTLWS Drehzahlbegrenzer LDSMXN.0 KFLDS KFZW.0 (.1, .2) KFLUL KFLDSAK.0 KFMLDMX KFLDTV https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=raAmPkPr_8wKFTLWS KFLF TLRAN.0 (.1) KFZW.0 (.1, .2) KFMLDMX KFLDS KFLDSAK.0 KFLDTV KFTVLDRE.0 KFLUL LDSMXN.0 Map Pack, attached, found on another websiteKFLF KFTLWS.0 (.1) LDSMXN.0 KFLDS.0 (.1) KFZW.0 (.1, .2) KFLUL.0 (2.0) KFLDSAK.0 KFMLDMX KFLDTV.0 (.1) TLRAN.0(.1) TLAN KFFA KFFAVL NOAWS NUAWS KFLDP.0 GLDSKNN.0 GLDSKPN.0 KFSWLSA.0 KFLDTVAK.0 Drehzahlbegrenzung KFWLM KFZWS.0 KFZWNA.0 DWVLN.0 |
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marantzvieta
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« Reply #1 on: August 14, 2022, 11:46:24 AM »
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Hello, I've kept searching in my quest to tune myself this POS. While comparing AJL (180hp) to my AEB (150hp), both stock softwares, I have seen KFLDS has higher values across the map than LDSMXN allows. Can we confirm that besides having 8,50 ms/umdr in KFLDS for example, if LDSMXN has only 8,00 ms/umdr, the computer won't inject more than 8ms¿? Still trying to understand how manufacturer tuned them and how they worked. Thanks in advance!  |
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aleks19411
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« Reply #2 on: August 19, 2022, 03:51:55 AM »
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It's all already chewed up! there is no point ... search the forum!
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marantzvieta
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« Reply #3 on: August 29, 2022, 05:17:54 PM »
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It's all already chewed up! there is no point ... search the forum!
Hi! Thanks for your help. Do you consider this enough searching?  And this enough info gathering, processing and concentrating in one only usfeul place? http://nefariousmotorsports.com/forum/index.php?topic=20919.0title= I am authorised to have now more than "search in the forum" as an answer? When is effort enough to be allowed to start asking what I think are SERIOUS questions? To whom may interest, i have good news, these maps work: KFTLWS
KFLF
TLRAN.0 (.1)
KFZW.0 (.1, .2)
KFMLDMX
KFLDS
KFLDSAK.0
KFLDTV
KFTVLDRE.0
KFLUL
LDSMXN.0 Copy pasting these maps from an 180 oem file to my 150 file did produce buttersmooth results, bumped flawlessly the car's performance. I still want to go a step further and make my own perfect tune and I am docuemnting the process in ONLY ONE PLACE for future people searching for this information. Just asking if they are still more maps to tune, or better ways to do so, and make it more perfect. I don't have to pay nobody to do the tasks, I can rescale ALL load maps if the time arrives and if it produces the best results, it's not costing me more money and it'll be worth it if its the best that can be done. Just have to ask to learn to do it if I doubt and I'm trying to give something back in exchange. Yes, I know information is spread all over the place. Again: I am just trying to unify everything in one place and in the most perfect way possible, but seems to be not interesting... sad. Still thanking anybody who is willing to help this get somewhere and the people who asked and answered already in the forums. |
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« Last Edit: August 29, 2022, 05:23:14 PM by marantzvieta »
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prj
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« Reply #4 on: August 30, 2022, 12:59:36 AM »
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Going more than the stock 180 file you need to fit a 4 bar FPR and sort out the fuel linearisation.
Otherwise you will hit 100% DC and lean out.
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marantzvieta
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« Reply #5 on: September 22, 2022, 09:00:18 AM »
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Going more than the stock 180 file you need to fit a 4 bar FPR and sort out the fuel linearisation.
Otherwise you will hit 100% DC and lean out.
Hi prj, thanks for your answer. My bad I did not introduce the car, it's a A4 B5 1.8t AEB, so already have a 4bar FPR and 210cc @ 3bar injectors. I have one doubt about what you comment on duty cycles. I've searched for it too but haven't found how to calculate DC in this ECU. Have found a formula on other forums that says (injection time in ms*RPM)/1200 but that results in 12.75ms @ 6000rpm like 31% duty cycle lol. Do you think you can help me to know when my injectors have maxed out? Thank you very much. Soon I'll be receiveing a wideband with controller in the mailbox to be able to start looking at AFRs and perform my own changes, so more info coming. Kind regards, |
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aleks19411
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« Reply #6 on: September 27, 2022, 11:41:21 PM »
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RPM / 60 = revs per second RPM / 120 = cycles per second (by “cycle” I mean four strokes) 120 / RPM = seconds per cycle = maximum time available for injectors to squirt
“Fuel injector duty cycle” is the actual time the injector is open, divided by the total time available. So:
IDC = IPW / (120 / RPM)
That can be rewritten as:
IDC = IPW * (RPM / 120)
…and to get an result of “90 percent” instead of “.90” you add a couple zeros:
IDC = RPM * IPW / 1200
If you look in RomRaider’s logger.xml you’ll find that formula.
So, for example:
7000 RPM * 17ms / 1200 = 99 percent IDC
What you see 12.75 is not injection
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« Last Edit: September 27, 2022, 11:51:16 PM by aleks19411 »
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marantzvieta
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« Reply #7 on: February 03, 2023, 06:51:19 PM »
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Hi aleks19411, thanks for the explanation! I will upload tomorrow your explanation to the file with your name in it  It'll be useful to calculate maxed out injectors for novices like me. I still have my question related to LDSMXN, if somebody can help with it: - How does KFLDS manage and LDSMXN limit boost? How fo they interact with N75 cycles? Isn't KFLDTV supposed to control boost by N75 duty cycles? I still don't get how or why does ms/umdr (load) translate to boost. Thank you very much in advance! RPM / 60 = revs per second RPM / 120 = cycles per second (by “cycle” I mean four strokes) 120 / RPM = seconds per cycle = maximum time available for injectors to squirt
“Fuel injector duty cycle” is the actual time the injector is open, divided by the total time available. So:
IDC = IPW / (120 / RPM)
That can be rewritten as:
IDC = IPW * (RPM / 120)
…and to get an result of “90 percent” instead of “.90” you add a couple zeros:
IDC = RPM * IPW / 1200
If you look in RomRaider’s logger.xml you’ll find that formula.
So, for example:
7000 RPM * 17ms / 1200 = 99 percent IDC
What you see 12.75 is not injection
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overspeed
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« Reply #8 on: February 04, 2023, 10:09:27 AM »
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12,75ms is the theorical maximal LOAD (time).
injection time can be logged in channel 2 and is limited by protocol in 16,32ms (wich seens to be 255/100 x load)
Load can be correlated to torque (as its function of theorical fuel need to achieve lambda 1) - you can see it through MDIST.
You ask load (torque) with KFLDS, correct it by Air temperature and elevation... LDSMX é maximum load.
KFLDTV are for overboost section (LDOB).
try those 2 things and you will undestand how it works
Zero all KFLDTV maps and see what happens, then restore then and max LDSMX, see again, then zero LDSMX and see what happens.
It will be cristal clear after that.
by the way, KFTLWS is not "only used when MAF is defective", it´s the predective load value
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marantzvieta
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« Reply #9 on: February 06, 2023, 10:37:18 AM »
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Hi overspeed, really appreciated about your explanation. I am working on installing an A3 flashable ecu to my A4 to be able to flash in the car, and your recomendations will be the first thing I'll try. There is just this single thing I still don't understand, and that I am starting to think it's what somebody said on another M3.8.3 post: "still waiting for the moment that older Motronics start making sense": - HOW does Boost control relate to Load, or why does the ecu use Load (time) to control the boost? I just cannot figure it out and get to used to using this unit to understand the boost control maps of the ecu. In KFLDTV i have N75 DC percentage which makes sense to me, but afterwards I have maps in Load controlling the same stuff. Why?   Sorry if I seem dumb but this thing is starting to make me feel that way. Very appreciated for your help. Kind regards, 12,75ms is the theorical maximal LOAD (time).
injection time can be logged in channel 2 and is limited by protocol in 16,32ms (wich seens to be 255/100 x load)
Load can be correlated to torque (as its function of theorical fuel need to achieve lambda 1) - you can see it through MDIST.
You ask load (torque) with KFLDS, correct it by Air temperature and elevation... LDSMX é maximum load.
KFLDTV are for overboost section (LDOB).
try those 2 things and you will undestand how it works
Zero all KFLDTV maps and see what happens, then restore then and max LDSMX, see again, then zero LDSMX and see what happens.
It will be cristal clear after that.
by the way, KFTLWS is not "only used when MAF is defective", it´s the predective load value
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overspeed
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« Reply #10 on: February 06, 2023, 06:12:04 PM »
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LOAD = Theorical injection time to achieve lambda =1, so it´s direct related (by 14,7:1) to air mass...
This ECU don´t care about pressure (as it does not have a MAP sensor), its only base on how much air it would like to consume to produce some torque (load) wich is specified by TPS position
principle is the same... Driver step on gas, wich TPS translate in a spec Load to be achieved by pulsing N75 (ok, advance, TBI angle, moisture are in the equation)... on DBW BEFORE ECU pulse N75 it "knows" how much boost, EGT, advance, etc thar will be necessary.
M3.8.3 just open throtle and reacts to MAF readings... if MAFreading is greater than what load is requested then it lower N75 and vice-versaf
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marantzvieta
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« Reply #11 on: February 08, 2023, 07:06:16 PM »
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I got it now! Thank you so much for taking the time to explain. Will make my tests and report back. Kind regards! LOAD = Theorical injection time to achieve lambda =1, so it´s direct related (by 14,7:1) to air mass...
This ECU don´t care about pressure (as it does not have a MAP sensor), its only base on how much air it would like to consume to produce some torque (load) wich is specified by TPS position
principle is the same... Driver step on gas, wich TPS translate in a spec Load to be achieved by pulsing N75 (ok, advance, TBI angle, moisture are in the equation)... on DBW BEFORE ECU pulse N75 it "knows" how much boost, EGT, advance, etc thar will be necessary.
M3.8.3 just open throtle and reacts to MAF readings... if MAFreading is greater than what load is requested then it lower N75 and vice-versaf
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marantzvieta
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« Reply #12 on: February 20, 2023, 07:37:48 AM »
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Hi! I did some logs this weekend to verify the car was running ok and to see the information about load and injection time, but as you can see on the log, VCDS shows injection times higher that LDSMXN allows... See the picture attached too. It is my 150hp tune converted to 180 from oem AJL maps. In LDSMXN I see up to 8ms/rpm and I did log higher values, exactly as KFLDS says.  Also, the corrected injection time was over 16,32 as you can see in the log, going up to 21.68. Am i doing something wrong? Thanks for your help 12,75ms is the theorical maximal LOAD (time).
injection time can be logged in channel 2 and is limited by protocol in 16,32ms (wich seens to be 255/100 x load)
Load can be correlated to torque (as its function of theorical fuel need to achieve lambda 1) - you can see it through MDIST.
You ask load (torque) with KFLDS, correct it by Air temperature and elevation... LDSMX é maximum load.
KFLDTV are for overboost section (LDOB).
try those 2 things and you will undestand how it works
Zero all KFLDTV maps and see what happens, then restore then and max LDSMX, see again, then zero LDSMX and see what happens.
It will be cristal clear after that.
by the way, KFTLWS is not "only used when MAF is defective", it´s the predective load value
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marantzvieta
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« Reply #13 on: February 28, 2023, 05:38:37 PM »
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Hi everybody, Just to inform I added v0.3 file to the Community Project thread http://nefariousmotorsports.com/forum/index.php?topic=20919.0 with updated and revised information. Go have a look! I still need help with stuff you will see to be completed in the file and with questions here in this thread. ¿Somebody willing to keep helping? Thank you very much in advance! Kind regards The changes are the following:
v0.3 - 28/2/2023
Verified information:
- Pictures
- Logging
- Stage 1 (map list)
- Fuel (injector DC calculator, AFR ratios list)
Added: "Welcome" section with info about this file, ecu and tuning tools required for M3.8.x ecus. "Logging" section with Groups, Parameters and Values able to be logged (with 558E ecu and most Euro cars) so we can identify quickly logging groups and what info to expect before going into the car or what info we should look at in our logs |
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marantzvieta
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« Reply #14 on: May 27, 2023, 07:17:41 AM »
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Hello everybody, I am already testing several tries of stage 1 files I've made myself but since the first try I've experienced the same weird thing: boost surge only at WOT. I've done several runs to test possible fixes: raised a bit KFTVLDRE, raised a bit according limiters like LDSMXN and KFMLDMX for example, but boost still surges at WOT. Boost won't surge if I back off a bit the gas pedal and will run great. As you can see in the attached log, air readings from the maf will stop increasing for about 400-500rpms and then keep going up to redline. Also load does surge a bit accordingly, where i have set it up to 9,5ms from about 2500 rpm up to 4500rpms more or less, and the N75 duty cuycles do decrease way too much too: Values go down to 63% and straigt up to 88% while I have it set it up to about 75% at about 2500-4500rpm to maintain boost. I've done changes, playing a bit with KFTVLDRE but I can only move the point where the air flow hump is, one test I did was at 120g/s for 500rpm and then kept going, this one is at 100g/s... Air intake temps are ok at about 45ºC at most and there is no more than 1 o 2º of ignition retardation at the highest rpm only, that's why I have not included them in this log. Do you guys need any more info to help me diagnose it? I am a but stumped, I don't know if I don't have the experience to read the data or if I'm missing something, or if maybe N75 is bad... I do not suspect leaks, and also have replaced with new hoses the N75 lines and DV holds good vacuum. Maybe I'm wrong assuming about leaks? Also, "actual RPM speed reads only up to 2550rpm which is weird, other fields read the whole rpm range... Hope somebody can give me some light with this. Thank you very much in advance.  |
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« Last Edit: May 27, 2023, 07:20:34 AM by marantzvieta »
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