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Author Topic: The 5120 hack - Running up to 5bar absolute pressure on ME7.x  (Read 331911 times)
99pwr
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« Reply #210 on: February 21, 2013, 02:32:51 AM »

Try with DSLGRAD 437.5 and DSLOFS 31.25
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julex
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« Reply #211 on: February 21, 2013, 07:16:40 AM »

Try with DSLGRAD 437.5 and DSLOFS 31.25

Can you elaborate why these values? If shooting in the dark, one can really adjust stuff randomly until it matches... I can tell right off the bat that it would probably no work anyway since it wouldn't make up for about 80mbar discrepancy I was experiencing when using 437 and -4mbar for offset...

I will be comparing actual boost level to zeitronix and manual gauge sometime near future to see if scaling value is ok. Not until my clutch breaks in though.

Anyway, who else is using the sensor? Am I the only one, lol?...
« Last Edit: February 21, 2013, 07:20:10 AM by julex » Logged
99pwr
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« Reply #212 on: February 21, 2013, 08:10:23 AM »

I use the same sensor as you for my drag car. At first I had the same problem , I searched linearization of the sensor but I have not found it. Another 4 bar sensor which I've used very often but in diesel cars with BT is 0 281 002 316 and for this linearisation is: 500mbar at 0.5V and 4000mbar at 4.5V. This calibration we used to my car and the result is satisfactory.
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elRey
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« Reply #213 on: February 21, 2013, 08:24:01 AM »

Why not test the sensor and record actual pressure vs voltage?

http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?4503658-Diode-clamped-MAP-voltage-vs-stock-voltage-gt-log-graph&highlight=map
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julex
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« Reply #214 on: February 21, 2013, 10:21:26 AM »

I use the same sensor as you for my drag car. At first I had the same problem , I searched linearization of the sensor but I have not found it. Another 4 bar sensor which I've used very often but in diesel cars with BT is 0 281 002 316 and for this linearisation is: 500mbar at 0.5V and 4000mbar at 4.5V. This calibration we used to my car and the result is satisfactory.

Cool. I will give it a try. A long time ago I found specs for map sensors on bosch site and the one you listed struck me as a fit for our cars:

http://rb-aa.bosch.com/boaasocs/index.jsp;jsessionid=A33AAEE16429B168F3E582158D1DE99D.sundoro?ccat_id=110&prod_id=203

It makes sense that they would use common chip for measuring pressure (motorola freescale?) and only stuff it into different part# for specific applications.

Coincidentally, that sensor looks like a better fit for our cars since it is a 'fat' inlet from factory?
« Last Edit: February 21, 2013, 10:26:07 AM by julex » Logged
Bische
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« Reply #215 on: February 21, 2013, 11:38:39 AM »

Anyway, who else is using the sensor? Am I the only one, lol?...

03K906051? I am using that sensor Smiley

I dont get what is the problem? You have to enter hPa/voltage, its just a single constant and you have the ambient pressure sensor for reference.

Compare vs pu_w, if it doesnt match up, just pu_w / pvdkds_w and apply the factor to current DSLGRAD.

When it matches, back calculate the linearization point values using the FR formula and then re-calculate DSLOFS.
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julex
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« Reply #216 on: February 21, 2013, 01:00:03 PM »

03K906051? I am using that sensor Smiley

I dont get what is the problem? You have to enter hPa/voltage, its just a single constant and you have the ambient pressure sensor for reference.

Compare vs pu_w, if it doesnt match up, just pu_w / pvdkds_w and apply the factor to current DSLGRAD.

When it matches, back calculate the linearization point values using the FR formula and then re-calculate DSLOFS.

Roger... but I wanted them to match up after using specs not working them backwards from differences between pressures. Sounds like the official specs for different part# 4 bar MAP should work 100% accurately and I will check that in couple of hours.
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Bische
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« Reply #217 on: February 21, 2013, 01:05:11 PM »

Roger... but I wanted them to match up after using specs not working them backwards from differences between pressures. Sounds like the official specs for different part# 4 bar MAP should work 100% accurately and I will check that in couple of hours.

Yeah I understand, FWIW I had a 5.4% difference from the spec you posted.

IIRC britishturbo also had have like 6% diff from the FR calculated value on his homebrew sensor.
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julex
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« Reply #218 on: February 21, 2013, 03:03:59 PM »

Ok, confirmed. 437.5 and 31.25 (thanks to 99pwr for pointing me towards this direction!) which are calculated values for bosch 0 281 002 316 are spot on for this one. My pressure differential with engine off is 2mbar, that's 0.2% discrepancy and essentially dead on within reason considering there are two separate sensors measuring these...

DSLGRAD = (4000-500) / (4.5-0.5) = 3500/4 = 875  ---- 5120 hack ----> / 2 = 437.5
DSLOFS = (500) - (0.5 * 875) = 500 - 437.5 = 62.5  --- 5120 hack ----> / 2 = 31.25
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s5fourdoor
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« Reply #219 on: February 21, 2013, 03:57:15 PM »

Ok, confirmed. 437.5 and 31.25 (thanks to 99pwr for pointing me towards this direction!) which are calculated values for bosch 0 281 002 316 are spot on for this one. My pressure differential with engine off is 2mbar, that's 0.2% discrepancy and essentially dead on within reason considering there are two separate sensors measuring these...

DSLGRAD = (4000-500) / (4.5-0.5) = 3500/4 = 875  ---- 5120 hack ----> / 2 = 437.5
DSLOFS = (500) - (0.5 * 875) = 500 - 437.5 = 62.5  --- 5120 hack ----> / 2 = 31.25

What did you have DSUGRAD and DSUOFS set to?  Looking forward to progress.
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julex
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« Reply #220 on: February 21, 2013, 04:00:17 PM »

What did you have DSUGRAD and DSUOFS set to?  Looking forward to progress.

These are set to whatever 5120 bin had in it. It seems spot on, 1008 mbar today, sunny here.
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phila_dot
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« Reply #221 on: February 21, 2013, 05:24:00 PM »

What did you have DSUGRAD and DSUOFS set to?  Looking forward to progress.

They are just scaled down (divided by 2)
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julex
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« Reply #222 on: February 25, 2013, 12:25:11 PM »

Let's talk PID control.

Am I right that the PID control will be all messed up with the 5120 hack? Seems like KFLDRQ2 axis is changed (most important one) but there are other parameters and they all have output in %/hpa. Since we are halving hpa change by half, shouldn't the tables be multiplied by two then?

List:

LDRQ0S
LDRQ0DY
LDRQ1ST
LDRQ1DY
KFLDRQ2 (done?)

Without Q0 and Q1 changes, the PID will have hell of a time (or fail altogether) in keeping desired boost.
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phila_dot
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« Reply #223 on: February 25, 2013, 01:14:07 PM »

Let's talk PID control.

Am I right that the PID control will be all messed up with the 5120 hack? Seems like KFLDRQ2 axis is changed (most important one) but there are other parameters and they all have output in %/hpa. Since we are halving hpa change by half, shouldn't the tables be multiplied by two then?

List:

LDRQ0S
LDRQ0DY
LDRQ1ST
LDRQ1DY
KFLDRQ2 (done?)

Without Q0 and Q1 changes, the PID will have hell of a time (or fail altogether) in keeping desired boost.

Percentage doesn't change.

500mbar is 90% of 550mbar the same as 1000 is 90% of 1100mbar.
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julex
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« Reply #224 on: February 25, 2013, 01:27:25 PM »

Percentage doesn't change.

500mbar is 90% of 550mbar the same as 1000 is 90% of 1100mbar.

I did a quote from ME manual which was an excerpt and out of context really. The outputs from tables/scalars for PID control are converted "change from %/100hPa to %/hPa" (divide by 100) with a footnote that the part I copied "%/hPa", should really read "% / 1hPa".

As such, they are unit of pressure dependent. When ECU is reading 50hpa difference and tries to match it, it calculates change in DC for 1/2 of what it should be using which is 100hpa. Hence the quotients should be multiplied by two, I assume unless I am not thinking straight (keep in mind I don't really know how this is all calculated so don't blast me!)

Anyway, my empirical preliminary pulls indicate that PID controller is unable to control boost on my 770s, once it overshoots it never pulls out enough DC to even stop boost increase. It might be my completely inadequete KFLDRL which I need to still calibrate, but I suspect PID controller is out of balance as far as dynamic control goes as well as the quotients are not scaled to reflect 5120 change (well, one is but the others are not).
« Last Edit: February 25, 2013, 01:33:05 PM by julex » Logged
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