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Author Topic: low boost issues high rpm, need some help  (Read 22893 times)
krazydbiker
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« on: May 06, 2013, 12:33:32 PM »

just questions in general I cannot figure out

3rd gear WOT run, my boost target is 20 PSI, boost holds steady to about 4800 rpm, then its a steady decline down to 12 psi
kkk24 turbo on a 5 cylinder Volvo

after logging my turbo solenoid duty cycle goes through the roof trying to hold boost, so im assuming the ECU is doing its job properly

so far I have adjusted wastegate
replaced turbo solenoid
smoke tested entire system from MAF to intake manifold, and intake manifold
verified multiple times that the ECU is doing its job

is there any way to tell if my turbo is on the way out, I still have no shaft play, no odd noise, no oil leakage

I have tuned atleast 4 other Volvo's of my exact model with the same mods done, and they can hold perfect boost to redline
the only thing I have noticed when logging a comparable vehicle is that in general my duty cycle is higher to meet requested boost then others which would lead me to a boost leak, exhaust is a total straight pipe from the turbo
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IamwhoIam
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« Reply #1 on: May 07, 2013, 05:48:39 AM »

diverter valve leaking internally?
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I have no logs because I have a boost gauge (makes things easier)
krazydbiker
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« Reply #2 on: May 07, 2013, 06:18:51 AM »

you know, I never really thought about that, I did leak test the vacuum/pressure side of it, but to remove it on my car means removing the turbo.... I have been thinking of upgrading to a forge one anyways, and that would probably pass my smoke testing also I have been doing

any tricks I could do to possibly tell? I do have access to OEM diagnostic tools/ memory logging now finally for this vehicle
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pablo53
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« Reply #3 on: May 12, 2013, 10:09:17 PM »

What motor?

For reference, I have the stock K24 on my urS6 2.2L 5 cylinder... the compressor wheel is just capable of pushing 1 bar @ redline.  Just under 300hp.

If you are running this turbo on a Volvo 2.4 or 2.5, then you may have maxed out the compressor wheel.

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sn00k
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« Reply #4 on: May 13, 2013, 03:38:57 AM »

What motor?

For reference, I have the stock K24 on my urS6 2.2L 5 cylinder... the compressor wheel is just capable of pushing 1 bar @ redline.  Just under 300hp.

If you are running this turbo on a Volvo 2.4 or 2.5, then you may have maxed out the compressor wheel.


think he is talking about the newer k24 found in volvo R models, capable of pushing  closer to 400hp out of the box, even ~450hp with the right compressor wheel, and not the REALLY old one found in audi s2 etc.  Smiley
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dream3R
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« Reply #5 on: May 13, 2013, 05:04:57 AM »

Sounds very similar to issues with the diverter valve that I've seen before on the 5 pot S60R.

You can remove the valve from above, it's a &^&FF%$$ but it's possible.

Forge in the UK do a nice replacement.

If you change the valve and it's been broken be careful as adaptation will have maxed out the TCV duty cycle and it will overboost like mad, and on these blocks that's bad unless you have strengthened it.

I've had my expansion joints shimmed to avoid the block splitting as I've seen it so many times here in the UK.



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How to work out values from an A2L Smiley

http://nefariousmotorsports.com/forum/index.php?topic=5525.msg52371#msg52371


Starting Rev's http://nefariousmotorsports.com/forum/index.php?topic=5397.msg51169#msg51169

noobs read this before asking http://nefariousmotorsports.com/forum/index.php?topic=9014.0title=


ORGORIGINAL 05 5120 creator for Volvo
ORIGINAL Datalogger (Freeware) Author
ORGINAL finder of the 'extra' torque' limits
I don't have ME7.01 A2L I just use ID
prj
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« Reply #6 on: May 13, 2013, 07:06:30 AM »

The K24-7000 will not do 400hp on 98 RON, forget it. 350-360 hp is the limit for this turbo, when running locked wastegate.
Don't smoke test, instead pressure test. The problem could be occurring only at higher boost pressure, and your smoke machine probably works only at 5 psi.
Put 16-17 psi in there and see how it likes that.

Also make sure your cat is not loose or blocked.
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sn00k
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« Reply #7 on: May 13, 2013, 03:20:08 PM »

The K24-7000 will not do 400hp on 98 RON, forget it. 350-360 hp is the limit for this turbo, when running locked wastegate.

again, this probably isnt the old k24-7000 or k24-7200 turbo, but the 15-20 years newer k24-7400, and yes it can reach 400bhp, even 450 with a drop-in billet-wheel..
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krazydbiker
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« Reply #8 on: May 13, 2013, 05:56:26 PM »

thanks guys for the input, pressure test passed perfectly, we have a nice machine for this!, still does not mean the diverter valve is not leaking

i tried to remove it in the vehicle, its NOT happening, the bolts are frozen BAD, and it faces directly at the block so im forced to use shallow swivel allens... i plan on doing some porting to the manifold and such, and possibly upgrading the compressor wheel so i am probably going to go with a forge valve at the same time

the car has a 3 inch straight pipe with a straight through 3 inch muffler, i suppose i could hook up a backpressure gauge for kicks, its easy enough

i have heard of the sleeves cracking on these motors are upwords of 400+ hp, but it seems to be area specific, and even totally random as i have seen it happen to stock vehicles.

this turbo can probably handle 400hp with probably the worst EGT's you will ever see and who knows what the turbine RPM is, definitely way over what was ever meant for.

time to do some more testing and report back
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prj
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« Reply #9 on: May 14, 2013, 08:03:56 AM »

again, this probably isnt the old k24-7000 or k24-7200 turbo, but the 15-20 years newer k24-7400, and yes it can reach 400bhp, even 450 with a drop-in billet-wheel..


I mistyped. Yes, I meant the K24-7400.
As to whether it can reach "400hp", no it can't. I've mapped a couple of these now, and there is no way you are reaching anything above 350-360, maybe 370 or so with super low compression ratio. The turbo does not flow enough and the hotside starts to choke you. I've ran them with locked wastegate as well.
Only way to do this would be race fuel or E85.
Billet wheel is not going to help you too much, because the turbine maxes.

How many K24-7400 turbo'd cars have you mapped?
The K24-7400 is smaller than the K24-7200 btw, and it can not hold the same boost to redline as a K24-7200 can. And people do not run around claiming 400+hp from a K24-7200 either, 370 is an accepted limit.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2013, 08:07:02 AM by prj » Logged

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prj
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« Reply #10 on: May 14, 2013, 08:10:30 AM »

Boost profile K24-7400, 100% wgdc after 5500 rpm on Audi 2.2T motor:

5000 - 268kpa
5500 - 265kpa
6000 - 250kpa
6500 - 240kpa
7000 - 230kpa

Boost profile K24-7200, 100% wgdc after 5500 rpm on Audi 2.2T motor:
5000 - 283kpa
5500 - 280kpa
6000 - 273kpa
6500 - 268kpa
7000 - 255kpa

To reach 400 hp these engines need at least 1.65-1.7 bar to redline if using the standard (9.3:1) compression ratio.
At 8.5:1 CR they can make a bit more, but no way to hit 400hp on K24-7200 turbo, never mind on the smaller K24-7400.
Full boost on K24-7400 about 2900 rpm, Full boost on K24-7200 3500 rpm in 3rd.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2013, 08:13:42 AM by prj » Logged

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krazydbiker
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« Reply #11 on: May 14, 2013, 09:05:13 AM »

well then maybe i am just outflowing the turbo, that was my thoughts originally until i tuned another almost identical car with the same modifications done, one even had a 3.5 inch downpipe to 3 inch straight, and that was able to hold 20 psi to redline with a pretty high duty cycle, but it still did it, other things i noticed was an all around lower % duty cycle then my car even when commanding 4-6 psi.

it never really came to light because not many people have the same car around here, or want a tune
« Last Edit: May 14, 2013, 09:07:21 AM by krazydbiker » Logged
sn00k
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« Reply #12 on: May 14, 2013, 04:16:04 PM »

How many K24-7400 turbo'd cars have you mapped?

ugh.. choke that turbo..  Roll Eyes
actually ive tuned none myself, but ive seen a few 2.5l 20v engines on the dyno around the 400hp mark over here in "the land of the volvos", mostly on 98ron or V-power (99ron) Grin

these turbos dont really like the boostlevels you are describing, and never operate that high in the volvo cars due to the increased engine volume + flow, the compressor flow is no doubt higher in lower PRs, and you wont max out the turbine below 400hp on 98ron.

if what youre saying were true for the cars in question, Volvo would have stuck with their MHI 16t/19t turbos, and not step it up a notch to these.. since the MHI turbos were really solid units which produced the widest of torque-bands.. Smiley

worth mentioning is that a stage 1 chip for these cars yield 354hp/493Nm.. on 95ron.
using 98 ron on top of that, combined with lowering backpressure from a better downpipe + exhaust and you are there.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2013, 04:24:55 PM by sn00k » Logged
dream3R
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« Reply #13 on: May 14, 2013, 04:16:39 PM »

I think there is a reasonable method of removing the valve,  if you can't find it give me a shout.

Yes the liners cracking can be random but I've seen a lot of tuned ones do it,  that said mine ran 1.5 bar with map issues for a while including a track day and all was well when the head was removed recently.
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How to work out values from an A2L Smiley

http://nefariousmotorsports.com/forum/index.php?topic=5525.msg52371#msg52371


Starting Rev's http://nefariousmotorsports.com/forum/index.php?topic=5397.msg51169#msg51169

noobs read this before asking http://nefariousmotorsports.com/forum/index.php?topic=9014.0title=


ORGORIGINAL 05 5120 creator for Volvo
ORIGINAL Datalogger (Freeware) Author
ORGINAL finder of the 'extra' torque' limits
I don't have ME7.01 A2L I just use ID
dream3R
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« Reply #14 on: May 14, 2013, 04:21:18 PM »

On swedespeed lol
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How to work out values from an A2L Smiley

http://nefariousmotorsports.com/forum/index.php?topic=5525.msg52371#msg52371


Starting Rev's http://nefariousmotorsports.com/forum/index.php?topic=5397.msg51169#msg51169

noobs read this before asking http://nefariousmotorsports.com/forum/index.php?topic=9014.0title=


ORGORIGINAL 05 5120 creator for Volvo
ORIGINAL Datalogger (Freeware) Author
ORGINAL finder of the 'extra' torque' limits
I don't have ME7.01 A2L I just use ID
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