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Author Topic: Acceptable limits for knock voltage  (Read 107892 times)
nyet
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« Reply #75 on: January 23, 2013, 11:49:35 PM »

I limited my changes to KRALH, RKANH and KRFKLN

ymmv, i haven't looked at the ones prj is suggesting.
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Bische
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« Reply #76 on: March 15, 2013, 12:50:48 AM »

How is knock control affected by a larger bore?

Say we bore the cylinders 2mm, reduces wall thickness by 1mm. Would the knock control become more or less sensitive? Would it be affected at all?
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terok
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« Reply #77 on: March 15, 2013, 01:40:58 AM »

Bore is the main variable concerning knock resonance frequency. So it will be affected, for how much, i cannot say.
I guess it depends whether the sensors are broadband, or tuned to a certain frequency range. Maybe somebody could do a vibration analysis Smiley
« Last Edit: March 15, 2013, 01:45:32 AM by terok » Logged
Bische
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« Reply #78 on: March 15, 2013, 11:11:17 PM »

If I put it this way, has anyone tuned an engine which is bored out and ran into problems with knock control?
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ddillenger
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« Reply #79 on: March 15, 2013, 11:34:53 PM »

http://www.feec.vutbr.cz/EEICT/2004/sbornik/03-Doktorske_projekty/03-Kybernetika_a_automatizace/06-klusacek.pdf

Not sure if that helps, but might be of interest.

It looks like the range the knock sensor can detect is between 5 and 15khz. Given your increase in bore size, It looks like the knock frequency will have been reduced slightly, but still within range of the knock sensor.

Knock frequency can be calculated (theoretically) by using:

900/(Pi * r)

Given that, your new knock frequency would be roughly 6900hz, while the old frequency would be 7100. Not an appreciable difference (roughly 2.8 percent) considering the calibration of the factory sensor. I'd be willing to bet solid motormounts affect the sensor more than that.

Any thoughts on looking at a 2.8 file and comparing the values of the maps outlined in the beginning of this thread with your own?

Lastly, I have to add that this is just my take on the information I've assimilated. It may or may not be entirely correct.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2013, 12:37:55 AM by ddillenger » Logged

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Bische
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« Reply #80 on: March 17, 2013, 01:25:04 AM »

Thanks for the reply DD, very interesting info Smiley

Im currently working on a 1.8t which is bored and stroked to 2008cc, but I will compare 2.7 > 2.8 binarys. Is the only difference between 2.8 and 2.7tt the bore?

I will chime back in if I find anything valueable.
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jibberjive
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« Reply #81 on: December 12, 2013, 01:18:16 AM »

Did anyone ever compare the 2.8 to 2.7 values?
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dream3R
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« Reply #82 on: December 12, 2013, 05:40:54 AM »

So CF = correction factor, which is ignition retard.  I want to log this and have a few of these type of variables defined in my IDB file.

wkrm is it?
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How to work out values from an A2L Smiley

http://nefariousmotorsports.com/forum/index.php?topic=5525.msg52371#msg52371


Starting Rev's http://nefariousmotorsports.com/forum/index.php?topic=5397.msg51169#msg51169

noobs read this before asking http://nefariousmotorsports.com/forum/index.php?topic=9014.0title=


ORGORIGINAL 05 5120 creator for Volvo
ORIGINAL Datalogger (Freeware) Author
ORGINAL finder of the 'extra' torque' limits
I don't have ME7.01 A2L I just use ID
dream3R
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« Reply #83 on: December 12, 2013, 10:18:04 AM »

OK also found dwkrz_0-7 in my IDB, referenced via a pointer in KRRA.  Guess I'm set for knock logging.
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How to work out values from an A2L Smiley

http://nefariousmotorsports.com/forum/index.php?topic=5525.msg52371#msg52371


Starting Rev's http://nefariousmotorsports.com/forum/index.php?topic=5397.msg51169#msg51169

noobs read this before asking http://nefariousmotorsports.com/forum/index.php?topic=9014.0title=


ORGORIGINAL 05 5120 creator for Volvo
ORIGINAL Datalogger (Freeware) Author
ORGINAL finder of the 'extra' torque' limits
I don't have ME7.01 A2L I just use ID
tjwasiak
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« Reply #84 on: July 06, 2015, 02:09:45 PM »

I know it is old post and old topic but I do not think it would be wise to start a new one.

(...)
Without adaption knock control retards the ignition angle individualy for every cylinder by KRFKN(KRFKLN in stationary mode) with every recognized knocking cycle and sums it up in wkr(x).
wkr(x) is limited to KRMXN (which is the max value incl. adaption) on retard and 0 on advance of ignition.
For advancing the values in wkr (x) back to 0 the counter zkrvf(x) is used. It is initialized on every knocking cycle with the values out of KRVFN which controls how fast the ignition is phased back to normal. For every non knocking cycle were the ignition angle is limited due to knock control activity, this counter is decremented by 1. When the counter is 0 the ignition angle is advanced by 1 degree and reinitialized with KRVFN.
I would like to kindly ask if it is in fact 1 degree by which ignition angle is advanced when counter initialized with KRVFN rolls? I think it should be 0.75 degree or KRFK(L)N value.

Now the adaption comes into play. (...)

How does the adaption learn the values:
When adaption is active ( TCO>TMKRA + knock control is active) and writing into the adaption map is not forbidden due to rl < LKRAN, TCO<TMKRAS, N<NKRAMIN, N>NKRAMAX, ASR, VMAX,NMAX, then the values of wkr(x)+KRDWKLA (which is 0 on S4/RS4) is written into the adaption map if the value is more retarded than the saved value in wkra(x).
If the current ignition retard in wkr(x) is more than KRDWA earlier than the stored value in wkra(x) and zkrvf(x)=0 the value in the adaption map is advanced by KRDWSA.
Is wkr(x) value signed or not? I am asking because 06A906032FC (HW/SW 0261207204/360294 at least) has KRDWKLA set to -1.5* and I would like to be sure if adaptation is using current wkr(x) increased by 1.5* or decreased by 1.5*.
Also I do not understand last sentence - does it mean that if wkr(x) is greater than KRDWA (2.25*, which should mean wkr(x) is unsigned) on each zkrvf(x) counter roll adaptation value is advanced by KRDWSA (1.5*)?

(...)
The mean value of the last 6 ignition corrections dwkrz(x) due to knock control also influence the max. allowed load in LDRXN. It has a long term adaption which becomes active above RLKRLDA.
The correction factor for LDRXN can be found in KFFLLDE. How fast the adaption works can be influenced by TLKRLDAB and TLKRLDAU.
If there are any specific questions just feel free to ask.
I would also like to kindly ask for KFFLLDE ignition advance correction axis location in mentioned above 1.8T ME7.5 file and also for confirmation of TLKRLFAB/U addresses (0x01EB36, 0x01EB46) in same file.
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slappynuts
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« Reply #85 on: July 07, 2015, 04:49:03 PM »

You guys are lost between theory and practical application. Forget knock voltage, it is completely irrelevant (I said this on VWkotex and everyone about lost their minds  Grin ). PRJ is right on the mark as far as what is happening.

Now how do we apply this in a practical manner? I have spent a lot of time around Dynos and that is the answer none of you want to hear, but it is the right answer to the question (how do we find the knock threshold?).

Step number one.... dial out all knock that the ECU sees on the dyno. Step number two.... shut off knock sensors and do a pull. Step number three.... add two degrees to the timing and repeat until adding timing no longer gives more power....Step four.... bring your knock sensors online and increase from the lowest setting until it detects the knock that is causing you to not make any more power.

This is how all the pro tuners I have worked around deal with tuning knock sensors.
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ddillenger
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« Reply #86 on: July 07, 2015, 07:04:01 PM »

You guys are lost between theory and practical application. Forget knock voltage, it is completely irrelevant (I said this on VWkotex and everyone about lost their minds  Grin ). PRJ is right on the mark as far as what is happening.

Now how do we apply this in a practical manner? I have spent a lot of time around Dynos and that is the answer none of you want to hear, but it is the right answer to the question (how do we find the knock threshold?).

Step number one.... dial out all knock that the ECU sees on the dyno. Step number two.... shut off knock sensors and do a pull. Step number three.... add two degrees to the timing and repeat until adding timing no longer gives more power....Step four.... bring your knock sensors online and increase from the lowest setting until it detects the knock that is causing you to not make any more power.

This is how all the pro tuners I have worked around deal with tuning knock sensors.

This is bad advice.

All engines run best with some knock. Just because it's present doesn't mean it'll stop making power at this magical threshold you seem to think exists. What you're talking about is ideal for tuning E85, nothing else.
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jibberjive
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« Reply #87 on: July 07, 2015, 11:00:51 PM »

Following that advice while using a fuel that cannot reach MBT without experiencing knock (read: pretty much all fuel other than E85 and race gas) will almost guarantee a grenaded engine.
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tjwasiak
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« Reply #88 on: July 08, 2015, 03:29:42 AM »

(...)
Now how do we apply this in a practical manner? I have spent a lot of time around Dynos and that is the answer none of you want to hear, but it is the right answer to the question (how do we find the knock threshold?).

Step number one.... dial out all knock that the ECU sees on the dyno. Step number two.... shut off knock sensors and do a pull. Step number three.... add two degrees to the timing and repeat until adding timing no longer gives more power....Step four.... bring your knock sensors online and increase from the lowest setting until it detects the knock that is causing you to not make any more power.

This is how all the pro tuners I have worked around deal with tuning knock sensors.
I do not even want to know those "pro tuners" you are talking about. The process you described is not calibrating knock sensitivity it just killing an engine by setting ECU so it will not react to knock as you insist you tune it to a point it does not show any ignition retard due to ongoing knock, disable knock sensors and advance timing back (so use timing which you know is too advanced). IMHO without proper equipment noone should mess with knock sensor calibration. Only thing which could be adjusted is KRKF(L)N.
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nupustas
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« Reply #89 on: November 01, 2021, 10:17:41 AM »

Old discussion, but i don't think it's worth creating a new one.

If we are talking about non-stock engine (with stronger -so heavier and different design- rods), factory settings off KFKEF should become wrong, and may detect knock when it's not knocking? So raising KFKEF 10...12perc. maybe not so bad idea, if i have more timing retardation comparing with stock internals(after engine rebuild)?
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