NefMoto > Technical > Tuning > MED9 HPFP & LPFP Control
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Author Topic: MED9 HPFP & LPFP Control  (Read 226796 times)
99pwr
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« Reply #45 on: June 17, 2014, 10:03:31 AM »
Quote from: Beaviz on June 17, 2014, 03:18:23 AM
Do any of you have the stock values from PRNL1 and PGBDVHDO from an RS4 4.2 FSI?

PRNL1 don't exist in RS4 4.2FSI file. PGBDVHDO is zero.
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Beaviz
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« Reply #46 on: June 17, 2014, 11:36:05 AM »
Quote from: 99pwr on June 17, 2014, 10:03:31 AM
PRNL1 don't exist in RS4 4.2FSI file. PGBDVHDO is zero.

Thanks man! Smiley Even though I did not get much wiser. Wink
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nokiafix
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« Reply #47 on: July 08, 2014, 10:20:16 AM »
One issue I am seeing on higher hp setups with upgrade HPFP is the pressure creeps above the requested pressure at higher rpm 6200rpm onwards.   One car I have in now running 155bar release valve and requests 140bar, by 7000rpm this pressure creeps to 150bar.   Another one is a hybrid setup 414hp with rs4 valve with rail pressure at  131bar , this one at 6500rpm creeps into 136bar and open u the valve at which point the lpfp %dc maxes out.  keep the pressure below the valve break of point and lpfp rail %dc is around 20% lower.  
Has anyone seen this before?  I notice it more on the CDL engine with cams with the extra .4 mm on the lobe.

I am thinking KLNEHDP could be the issue?  This seems to be the relation to the lobe position v stoke of the piston and is used for the N276 needle control, 3 cycles of 120deg for each full cam rotation

http://www.volkspage.net/technik/ssp/ssp/SSP_334_d1.pdf


I have the logs on my other laptop I will try to post them up, but for now its similar to the logs below


  
« Last Edit: July 08, 2014, 11:27:15 AM by nokiafix » Logged
BenR
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« Reply #48 on: July 08, 2014, 08:06:33 PM »
Quote from: Beaviz on June 17, 2014, 03:18:23 AM
Do any of you have the stock values from PRNL1 and PGBDVHDO from an RS4 4.2 FSI?

I can read elsewhere that the RS4 PRV should open at 136bar/13.6MPa.

In the stock 2.0 TFSI file the values are 12.0MPa (PRNL1) and 11.8MPa (PGBDVHDO). According to the FR, PGBDVHDO is the "pressure limit in the high pressure rail where the pressure regulating valve opens". So I guess that this should be set to 13.6MPa when installing an RS4 PRV?

The FR says that PRNL1 is the "opening pressure of the pressure regulating valve". My guess would also be that this value should be 13.6MPa. But I sense that I misunderstood something here (my german is getting a bit rusty).

What are the difference between PRNL1 and PGBDVHDO? Is PRNL1 only used for diagnose and should hence be a little higher than the actual value where the PRV opens?

This is a good find for MED9.1. Ive had mostly good luck with just changing the KFPR maps but i have had times on some cars where changing these maps resulted on the specified not being what i set it to. PRNL1 and PGBDVHDO may be the answer. We need to also consider the mode the car is currently in.
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Claudietto81
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« Reply #49 on: July 09, 2014, 09:43:07 AM »
Hi guys i have an issue. Basically i installed on 2.0 tfsi BWA with gtx2867 an RS3 lpfp with stock bwa pwm controller. But the problem is that the car shuts down at idle after 20-30 minutes. I expected the car could shut down at high loads like in 4th gear at wot or similar and in this way i could act on the duty cycle of lpfp. But at idle?? someone has had the same problem? any solution for this issue? thank you very much to everybody
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BenR
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« Reply #50 on: July 09, 2014, 06:01:01 PM »
Ive had the same problem. You need to look at your DC maps for the LPFP control and make sure they dont go over 95% Wink
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S2evo1
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« Reply #51 on: July 09, 2014, 10:46:46 PM »
Quote from: Claudietto81 on July 09, 2014, 09:43:07 AM
Hi guys i have an issue. Basically i installed on 2.0 tfsi BWA with gtx2867 an RS3 lpfp with stock bwa pwm controller. But the problem is that the car shuts down at idle after 20-30 minutes. I expected the car could shut down at high loads like in 4th gear at wot or similar and in this way i could act on the duty cycle of lpfp. But at idle?? someone has had the same problem? any solution for this issue? thank you very much to everybody

The BWA LPFP controller is not made to run the RS3 pump. There is a reson the TTRS/RS3 have a complete diffrent LPFP controller.
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Claudietto81
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« Reply #52 on: July 10, 2014, 05:41:34 AM »
Quote from: hammersword on November 25, 2013, 06:11:39 PM
I use stock controler with TTRS/RS3 pumps.

The only need is to recalibrate the controler's DC.
I did a GTX3071R last days and at 8200RPM I had 3.6bar @ 2bar boost with 84%DC
If you don't recalibrate well the controler then you will face an engine shut off at high speeds...

About the HPFP there are more maps like piston diameter, piston surface etc
But have you seen what Hummersword wrote??
Theoretically there is the possibility to use the stock controller with RS3/TTRS low pressure pump without swapping PWM controller that anyway interferes with the gateway.
Adding to this this issue it is very strange because the car doesn't shut down at high speeds but at idle after 20 minutes...probably there is another single value to set because I changed the dutycycle and nothing happened. Any idea?
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hammersword
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« Reply #53 on: July 11, 2014, 07:30:45 AM »
I am tuning and installing TTRS/RS3 LPFP since 3 years ago when in Greece and in Europe wrote that "TTRS pump doesn't work on 2.0TFSi, lets install a Walbro255 and an ON/OFF button"

You can control the TTRS/RS3 LPFP with stock PWM controller of Golf 5 or S3 etc, the only need is a new recalibration of the PWM map and of course not only values but axis also...

Never had or have any problem and then your LPFP system is capable up to 650hp (tested on S3 GTX3071R that I have made and running 580hp at 2.35bar ct)
Actual inj time 6ms @ 160bar HPFP @ 8000RPM
Actual LPFP pressure 4.8bar @ 8000RPM @ 76%DC

all answers are in the software and FR doc, no need to install RS4 PWM or make patends or extra lines with external pumps etc...

cheers,
Fotis
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Claudietto81
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« Reply #54 on: July 21, 2014, 09:53:14 AM »
Hammersword thanks for the answer your contribution is really precious.
In past I remember i swapped RS3 duty cycle and nothing happened i still had the same issues. So probably  i assume we also need to change single values like maximum, minum and initializing duty cycle values?
Thanks
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Nottingham
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« Reply #55 on: July 21, 2014, 12:32:19 PM »
Did I understand correctly that the stock LPFP controller overheats when the duty cycle increases beyond certain point?

In that case the controller could probably be strengthened by improving the cooling.
The current draw of the fuel pump increases at higher duty cycle so the heat caused by the increased currents would logically be the background of the issue.

I assume (and hope) the control unit doesn't have a LDO inside it but uses PWM modulation from start to end?

Based on ELSA the fuel pumps should flow as follows (minimum):

200-265hp (1K0919051AS) pump:

992cm³/min @ 10V
1240cm³/min @ 11V
1520cm³/min @ 12V

RS3/TT-RS pump (8J0919051D / E):

1600cm³/min @ 10V
1840cm³/min @ 11V
2120cm³/min @ 12V

So at 12V (~88% effective duty) the non-RS pump would be able to flow fuel only worth of 220g/s of air at 0.8 AFR (((1520/60)*0,741)*11,76)
Likewise the RS-pump would flow fuel worth of 308g/s of air per second at the same duty cycle.

Therefore at 100% duty cycle the absolute maximum flow for the non-RS pump would be around 355hp (crank)?

0.741 = Fuel weight (grams per cubic centimeter)
11.76 = 0.8 AFR

Maybe I'll source a broken stock controller and pop it open.
I got some background in VRM and PWM circuit design anyways Grin
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BenR
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« Reply #56 on: July 21, 2014, 05:23:42 PM »
Personally i found the stock LPFP controller with the RS3/TTRS LPFP worked ok but beyond 500HP the RS3 controller worked a bit better, allowed more fuel. Im not familiar with the electronics though, the only downside of the RS3 controller is it stays on after you turn the car off and you need to cycle the key again to turn it off. Not sure if there is a software change needed to stop this...
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S2evo1
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« Reply #57 on: July 21, 2014, 11:07:04 PM »
Quote from: Nottingham on July 21, 2014, 12:32:19 PM
Did I understand correctly that the stock LPFP controller overheats when the duty cycle increases beyond certain point?

In that case the controller could probably be strengthened by improving the cooling.
The current draw of the fuel pump increases at higher duty cycle so the heat caused by the increased currents would logically be the background of the issue.

I assume (and hope) the control unit doesn't have a LDO inside it but uses PWM modulation from start to end?

Based on ELSA the fuel pumps should flow as follows (minimum):

200-265hp (1K0919051AS) pump:

992cm³/min @ 10V
1240cm³/min @ 11V
1520cm³/min @ 12V

RS3/TT-RS pump (8J0919051D / E):

1600cm³/min @ 10V
1840cm³/min @ 11V
2120cm³/min @ 12V

So at 12V (~88% effective duty) the non-RS pump would be able to flow fuel only worth of 220g/s of air at 0.8 AFR (((1520/60)*0,741)*11,76)
Likewise the RS-pump would flow fuel worth of 308g/s of air per second at the same duty cycle.

Therefore at 100% duty cycle the absolute maximum flow for the non-RS pump would be around 355hp (crank)?

0.741 = Fuel weight (grams per cubic centimeter)
11.76 = 0.8 AFR

Maybe I'll source a broken stock controller and pop it open.
I got some background in VRM and PWM circuit design anyways Grin


This is why the TTRS/RS3 LPFP controller has cooling finns and are placed under the car and also the cables is bigger.

The controller is totaly seald and is flash able with software.
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S2evo1
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« Reply #58 on: July 21, 2014, 11:10:07 PM »
Quote from: BenR on July 21, 2014, 05:23:42 PM
Personally i found the stock LPFP controller with the RS3/TTRS LPFP worked ok but beyond 500HP the RS3 controller worked a bit better, allowed more fuel. Im not familiar with the electronics though, the only downside of the RS3 controller is it stays on after you turn the car off and you need to cycle the key again to turn it off. Not sure if there is a software change needed to stop this...

Its should be possible to recode the car to make the RS3 controller to work (I have done this on a Mk6 GTI but its MED17) I will test this on a Golf R to.
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BenR
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« Reply #59 on: July 22, 2014, 04:29:11 PM »
Quote from: S2evo1 on July 21, 2014, 11:10:07 PM
Its should be possible to recode the car to make the RS3 controller to work (I have done this on a Mk6 GTI but its MED17) I will test this on a Golf R to.

This would be awesome, ive had a quick look at the RS3 file but cant really find any differences but havent looked to hard yet.
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