kelesha
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« Reply #30 on: April 24, 2011, 01:21:15 AM »
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So on WOT you say that a narrowband ECU runs closed loop and make TP cuts? Thats not exactly "closed loop" like for lambda 1, but yes ECU still monitor mixture on WOT and if mixture is lean when ECU expect rich then it add fuel and you can see this on STFT value immediately  All the narrowband ECUs that I have tuned I have found in any that safety feature enabled, ONLY on wideband version I see this. So seems you have different expectation from narrow band ECUs..........no they react different than widebands, for narrow band 11:1 and 13:1 both are rich mixture so no correction needed, for wideband they are not and ECU apply correction, but when we talk for 16:1 and 11:1 then for both sensors mixtures are different i.e first is lean, second is rich, so on both cases ECU apply correction In Greece we have some of the most powerful 4cyl engines around the world. I can say that there are a lot of FAMILY CARS with power around 400 - 600hp. There are a lot of examples on each month magazines! I dont believe that in Greece there are "a lot" 1.8T cars with real 500+hp for everyday driving  If there are such please show me some examples or tell me where to look exactly ? About torque model you are correct by killing 70%+ of the ECU, but you have also some benefits that a drag car will need, but it is not the right place to discuss that!  For what benefits you wrote about what you can have only with torque model disabled ? |
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Giannis
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« Reply #31 on: April 24, 2011, 01:34:14 AM »
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I can confirm too that there are many greek cars with 500hp and daily driving usage.
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silentbob
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« Reply #32 on: April 24, 2011, 02:05:24 AM »
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How you mess fuel quality and knock adaptation here ? I talk about LTFT i.e Long Term Fuel Trim, its havent anything to done with fuel quality........ I'm not talking about knock resistance but different AFR of different pump fuels. Ever have seen a fuel analysis of a petro lab ? Would be surprised what difference this can make. I was also mostly refering to your statement with turning of lambda control. Also I wouldn't too much rely on the safety features of the ECU, especially with all the scaling of signals, because all this has only been tested with stock conditions and not 30psi boost. All this stuff is there for a reason and the basic calibration strategy is the same no matter the power level be it a 1l 3cyl Skoda Fabia or a 8l 16cyl Bugatti. Sure if you have it only for the track you don't need a lot of functions but for a DD fuel adaptation is a useful feature. |
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« Last Edit: April 26, 2011, 09:06:47 PM by silentbob »
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kelesha
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« Reply #33 on: April 24, 2011, 06:31:47 AM »
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I can confirm too that there are many greek cars with 500hp and daily driving usage.
No, I doubt there are "many cars" with 500+hp from 1.8T engine.......because to reach 500 real horses from 1.8T engine is not that easy |
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kelesha
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« Reply #34 on: April 24, 2011, 06:46:21 AM »
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for a DD fuel adaptation is a useful feature. Thats really long topic, but......when we talk about performance, long term fuel adaptations are absolutely useless |
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hammersword
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« Reply #35 on: April 24, 2011, 12:17:51 PM »
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Thats not exactly "closed loop" like for lambda 1, but yes ECU still monitor mixture on WOT and if mixture is lean when ECU expect rich then it add fuel and you can see this on STFT value immediately So seems you have different expectation from narrow band ECUs..........no they react different than widebands, for narrow band 11:1 and 13:1 both are rich mixture so no correction needed, for wideband they are not and ECU apply correction, but when we talk for 16:1 and 11:1 then for both sensors mixtures are different i.e first is lean, second is rich, so on both cases ECU apply correction If you mean that, then you are totally correct. I thought you mean that narrowband ECUs runs the same as wideband (trying to keep the target)... I dont believe that in Greece there are "a lot" 1.8T cars with real 500+hp for everyday driving If there are such please show me some examples or tell me where to look exactly ? In Greece the style of "The fast drag car closed in the garage" has been passed. Now all trying to find the Golden Mean. That means that they want a Trip car - street racing car - legan car... The 2 last years appeared a lot! 450hp on a 1.8T engine with 100octane fuel is not that difficult (stock head - stock cams) 600hp on an Opel Bertone 2.0T with 100octane is not that difficult (stock head - stock cams) Look at Greek forums and magazines or I can contact you sending you some examples from my work, or friend tuners work! Posting here will be a big off topic, and this topic is for MAFless On a performace car/ Race car/ Drag car / Street racing car, LTFT are useless and I agree. But I am talking about a quite powerful normal/family car! |
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« Last Edit: April 25, 2011, 11:42:35 AM by Tony@NefMoto »
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kelesha
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« Reply #36 on: April 24, 2011, 11:59:29 PM »
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450hp on a 1.8T engine with 100octane fuel is not that difficult (stock head - stock cams) With stock head even "big port" and stock cams 450hp are possible but only on the dyno with good cooling system and without knock at all.....on the highway such dyno queens are even lower than 400hp with sky high EGTs 600hp on an Opel Bertone 2.0T with 100octane is not that difficult (stock head - stock cams) Z20LET engine ? 600hp with stock head ? No way !!! |
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Giannis
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« Reply #37 on: April 25, 2011, 02:29:37 AM »
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I can confirm too that there are many greek cars with 500hp and daily driving usage.
No, I doubt there are "many cars" with 500+hp from 1.8T engine.......because to reach 500 real horses from 1.8T engine is not that easy I agree with you. When i talk about 500hp i mean high powered cars maybe they have 400 but the point is, that there are everyday use cars with high power output that they are also used by their owners to go with their family for shopping etc and not only in dragstripts. Sorry i am off topic. |
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hammersword
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« Reply #38 on: April 25, 2011, 06:42:51 AM »
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With stock head even "big port" and stock cams 450hp are possible but only on the dyno with good cooling system and without knock at all I speak always for Maha Dynos and ISO correction, of course with fine cooling systems as dyno starts with 25 - 30 IAT... And in Athens we have 2 dynos like this! Why without knock? The knock control is calibrated also for high octane fuels, but it still. Factory knock control tunes restrict a lot the benefits of a high octane fuel and high timing values! |
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silentbob
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« Reply #39 on: April 26, 2011, 08:14:37 PM »
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for a DD fuel adaptation is a useful feature. Thats really long topic, but......when we talk about performance, long term fuel adaptations are absolutely useless So is electronic throttle control, torque model s.o. All this doesn't make a difference powerwise if calibrated right, but gives you the chance to cover a lot more situation with your calibration |
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« Last Edit: April 26, 2011, 08:58:42 PM by silentbob »
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kelesha
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« Reply #40 on: April 26, 2011, 11:57:57 PM »
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So is electronic throttle control, torque model s.o. All this doesn't make a difference powerwise if calibrated right, but gives you the chance to cover a lot more situation with your calibration You cant compare torque model/ETC with LTFT. Torque model with ETC are base(heart) of ME7, and in same time LTFT is simple function what is needed on stock cars to reach certain conditions in short time. When we talk for LTFT then we can compare it with catalitic heating function on ME7, both have almost such priority and both can be disabled on high performance cars without problem |
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Rick
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« Reply #41 on: April 27, 2011, 12:34:58 PM »
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The only benefit I can see of disabling LTFT is on a race car where you are wanting to keep within very tight tolerances, and a change in fuel trim must have been caused by a change in air mass an therefore power.
Rick
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silentbob
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« Reply #42 on: April 28, 2011, 04:37:48 AM »
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You cant compare torque model/ETC with LTFT. Torque model with ETC are base(heart) of ME7, and in same time LTFT is simple function what is needed on stock cars to reach certain conditions in short time. When we talk for LTFT then we can compare it with catalitic heating function on ME7, both have almost such priority and both can be disabled on high performance cars without problem I'm not talking about ME7 but calibration and ECU functions in general. BTW cat heating is a hole other case, because this function is really only there to pass emmission tests. |
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a200tq
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« Reply #44 on: April 30, 2011, 01:29:33 PM »
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Wow-alot of interesting talks, thanks!
But maybe somebody tell me-what codeworte i must disable in me7 with MAFless, for switch back motronic from limp mode to normal mode? I dont whant to use external boost controller etc.
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