Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 5
Author Topic: The 11 maps that I would like to know ! ! !  (Read 39678 times)
nyet
Administrator
Hero Member
*****

Karma: +607/-168
Offline Offline

Posts: 12256


WWW
« Reply #30 on: July 06, 2015, 03:57:15 PM »

0521

Uh. No. How many bits are in 1 byte?
Logged

ME7.1 tuning guide
ECUx Plot
ME7Sum checksum
Trim heatmap tool

Please do not ask me for tunes. I'm here to help people make their own.

Do not PM me technical questions! Please, ask all questions on the forums! Doing so will ensure the next person with the same issue gets the opportunity to learn from your ex
Gulfstream
Full Member
***

Karma: +3/-5
Offline Offline

Posts: 232



« Reply #31 on: July 06, 2015, 04:00:47 PM »

Grin

According to my data E100 requires ~63% more fuel, as its stoichiometric AFR is ~9.0:1 (14.7:1 for gasoline). It looks even worse if you compare rich best torque figures (AFR ~6.43:1 for E100, ~12.5:1 for gasoline) - it is ~94% more fuel.
Taking that into consideration the injectors you are using are too small IMHO.

Here in Brazil exists cars with E100 from factory, and the injectors are 35%/40% bigger than gasoline original.

In a old carb cars E100 from factory, the carb have the flow rate 40% bigger

Logged
Gulfstream
Full Member
***

Karma: +3/-5
Offline Offline

Posts: 232



« Reply #32 on: July 06, 2015, 04:04:09 PM »

Uh. No. How many bits are in 1 byte?

8 bits / 1 byte?

I'm not good in hex!

The hex of krkte is 0521 and dec is 1313

Logged
nyet
Administrator
Hero Member
*****

Karma: +607/-168
Offline Offline

Posts: 12256


WWW
« Reply #33 on: July 06, 2015, 04:05:57 PM »

8 bits / 1 byte?

Can you fit 16 bits in one byte?
Logged

ME7.1 tuning guide
ECUx Plot
ME7Sum checksum
Trim heatmap tool

Please do not ask me for tunes. I'm here to help people make their own.

Do not PM me technical questions! Please, ask all questions on the forums! Doing so will ensure the next person with the same issue gets the opportunity to learn from your ex
Gulfstream
Full Member
***

Karma: +3/-5
Offline Offline

Posts: 232



« Reply #34 on: July 06, 2015, 04:09:39 PM »

I post my E100 file for all view.

was change:

TENIM
TENIM(VA)
KRKTE
KFZWOP
KFZW

My VCDS fails since last week, and now i cant make changes in fuel without analyze the O2 sensor.

I believe that have just small errors in TEMIN, just idle have little problems
« Last Edit: July 06, 2015, 04:18:35 PM by Gulfstream » Logged
Gulfstream
Full Member
***

Karma: +3/-5
Offline Offline

Posts: 232



« Reply #35 on: July 06, 2015, 04:11:44 PM »

Can you fit 16 bits in one byte?

I believe that i understand now!

1 byte = 8bits

2 bytes = 16bits

Its correct?
Logged
Gulfstream
Full Member
***

Karma: +3/-5
Offline Offline

Posts: 232



« Reply #36 on: July 06, 2015, 04:32:06 PM »

After i adjust the fuel in idle, i will spend a time to adjust the KFZWOP/KFZW, because the E100 need a different ignition curve.

example:
Logged
tjwasiak
Sr. Member
****

Karma: +26/-0
Offline Offline

Posts: 420


« Reply #37 on: July 06, 2015, 05:58:33 PM »

I do not think E100 needs different shape of ignition timing curve as it is engine hardware dependant (at least KFZWOP should be). It might be just poor OEM tune (those must fulfil different needs - economy, emissions and power - most of the time power is sacrificed).

I would like to ask how does it run when warming up? I understand you have quite warm climate but still it might need another tweaks to start (cold & hot) and run properly during warm up.
Logged
Gulfstream
Full Member
***

Karma: +3/-5
Offline Offline

Posts: 232



« Reply #38 on: July 06, 2015, 08:46:35 PM »

I do not think E100 needs different shape of ignition timing curve as it is engine hardware dependant (at least KFZWOP should be). It might be just poor OEM tune (those must fulfil different needs - economy, emissions and power - most of the time power is sacrificed).

I would like to ask how does it run when warming up? I understand you have quite warm climate but still it might need another tweaks to start (cold & hot) and run properly during warm up.

If you like, i can post here the ori file of a VW AP 1.6 Mi Gasoline, and a ori file of VW AP 1.6 Mi ETANOL ori file.

In warm up the engine of passat v6 and 1.8 20v works like a original etanol powered engine, for cold start, i use a glow plug of diesel engine to heat the etanol for start like a heated engine.

In a passat 1.8 20v E100 i just have a problem when starts hot with 550cc injectors... for solve it i need to found TLST.0 / TLST.1
Logged
tjwasiak
Sr. Member
****

Karma: +26/-0
Offline Offline

Posts: 420


« Reply #39 on: July 07, 2015, 07:50:40 AM »

If you like, i can post here the ori file of a VW AP 1.6 Mi Gasoline, and a ori file of VW AP 1.6 Mi ETANOL ori file.
Please post it, it could be good to learn how such conversions are done by OEM Cool

In warm up the engine of passat v6 and 1.8 20v works like a original etanol powered engine, for cold start, i use a glow plug of diesel engine to heat the etanol for start like a heated engine.
So you do not need any warm up maps tweaking? Is it not possible to just readjust cranking fuelling for cold starts? Have you compared those OEM E100 tunes to gasoline versions - maybe you will find a simpler way to do it?

In a passat 1.8 20v E100 i just have a problem when starts hot with 550cc injectors... for solve it i need to found TLST.0 / TLST.1
Post ECU flash - maybe someone will be able to help you.
Logged
overspeed
Sr. Member
****

Karma: +21/-5
Offline Offline

Posts: 387



« Reply #40 on: July 07, 2015, 10:33:50 AM »

For the injectors:

Gasoline: 14,70:1 and sg is about 0,725
Ethanol:  9,0 to 8,65:1 sg is about 0,811 
(Some authors say 9,00, some - as Marelli, says 8,65)

   14,70/8,65 x (0,725/0,811) = 1,52  (I)
   14,70/9,00 x (0,725/0,811) = 1,46  (II)

You can go anywhere between these and everything will go OK, in fact 52% will help with TIP IN issues based as ethanol is more dense and its response is slower, but in stationary loads/RPM 46% will make less corrections in STFT.

About KFZW/KFZWOP

Just start about 6° (forget where I saw it first time) in KFZW, as KFZWOP are defined as max ignition angle if it was not limited to detonation you can keep it as original values.

There is just when things start to get complex, if you have an engine with low CR (for Ethanol, let´s say less than 10,5:1) you can raise KFZW much more than 6° and will in some cases get more than KFZWOP in some areas, in these case I just make an off-set with something less than the original off-set.

Its interessant to say that you never get detonation with these low CR (not talking about turbo yet, just the NA part of operation), and in some time you raise KFZW and don´t get any torque more (it´s related to peak pressure beeing 14° after TDC).

High Higher CR and pressure you get much more torque as you walk next detonation limit, in these cases you shall want to increase the entire KFZWOP in the same off-set it have original before you mods.


Warn-up and cold start are a real pain in the ass... Hidrated Ethanol flash point is about 15°C, so, about 13°C you don´t have any combustion, about 17°C it´s very hard to ignite it... things only get better about 35/40°C...

To get Worst, when Ethanol get out of injectors it will get volume, and for Nerds sake lower the temperature more...  in practice start an engine with 100% hidrated Ethanol will require a LOT of enrichment is these 20~25°C areas... and much more in lower temperatures...

Warn-up it´s another pain, the Wall Film don´t help at all and moisture oscilate much more than with gasoline... again, it requires a lot of enrichment to work, and it only get really normal when engine temperature is more than about 60°C and air temperature is at 35°C at last.


Just to make things more clear, here we have some flex engines that work with 100% Hidrated Ethanol and can start about 13°C, but there is 2 ways, one is heating fuel in injectores (special injectors made by Delphi for example) other is software based, when the driver start engine it will never pulse all injectors full bank as usual, the ECU allow Engine to do some revolutions without injections, with WOT (TBI all open) and firing ... after that start small injection making wallfilm until first ignition happens... to achieve this injectors angle and spray are  diferent from Gasoline engines and manifold are all in ABS (plastic) so the heat exchange rate is minor than Aluminium ones.

It´s made this way because if you make a full group injection at start as usual the spark plugs get wet (ethanol makes short-circuits in eletrctode and mass) and in these conditions will never get a spark to occur


Logged
Gulfstream
Full Member
***

Karma: +3/-5
Offline Offline

Posts: 232



« Reply #41 on: July 07, 2015, 11:06:42 AM »

Please post it, it could be good to learn how such conversions are done by OEM Cool
So you do not need any warm up maps tweaking? Is it not possible to just readjust cranking fuelling for cold starts? Have you compared those OEM E100 tunes to gasoline versions - maybe you will find a simpler way to do it?
Post ECU flash - maybe someone will be able to help you.

In 1.8 20v with 550cc, was more easy to adjust for warm up, in 2.8 20v, i'm near to get it! the FBY2850 injectors are around 300cc, but i think that this little error can be corrected in TEMIN, because each time that i lower TEMIN the idle engine works better. when fails, is just in idle, and after 3 minuts dont fails more. but without VCDS i dont have a way to check it. I dont know the VCDS don't found the interface.

I'm posting now the ORI files GASOLINE/ETHANOL

« Last Edit: July 07, 2015, 11:10:43 AM by Gulfstream » Logged
Gulfstream
Full Member
***

Karma: +3/-5
Offline Offline

Posts: 232



« Reply #42 on: July 07, 2015, 11:18:28 AM »

For the injectors:

Gasoline: 14,70:1 and sg is about 0,725
Ethanol:  9,0 to 8,65:1 sg is about 0,811 
(Some authors say 9,00, some - as Marelli, says 8,65)

   14,70/8,65 x (0,725/0,811) = 1,52  (I)
   14,70/9,00 x (0,725/0,811) = 1,46  (II)

You can go anywhere between these and everything will go OK, in fact 52% will help with TIP IN issues based as ethanol is more dense and its response is slower, but in stationary loads/RPM 46% will make less corrections in STFT.

About KFZW/KFZWOP

Just start about 6° (forget where I saw it first time) in KFZW, as KFZWOP are defined as max ignition angle if it was not limited to detonation you can keep it as original values.

There is just when things start to get complex, if you have an engine with low CR (for Ethanol, let´s say less than 10,5:1) you can raise KFZW much more than 6° and will in some cases get more than KFZWOP in some areas, in these case I just make an off-set with something less than the original off-set.

Its interessant to say that you never get detonation with these low CR (not talking about turbo yet, just the NA part of operation), and in some time you raise KFZW and don´t get any torque more (it´s related to peak pressure beeing 14° after TDC).

High Higher CR and pressure you get much more torque as you walk next detonation limit, in these cases you shall want to increase the entire KFZWOP in the same off-set it have original before you mods.


Warn-up and cold start are a real pain in the ass... Hidrated Ethanol flash point is about 15°C, so, about 13°C you don´t have any combustion, about 17°C it´s very hard to ignite it... things only get better about 35/40°C...

To get Worst, when Ethanol get out of injectors it will get volume, and for Nerds sake lower the temperature more...  in practice start an engine with 100% hidrated Ethanol will require a LOT of enrichment is these 20~25°C areas... and much more in lower temperatures...

Warn-up it´s another pain, the Wall Film don´t help at all and moisture oscilate much more than with gasoline... again, it requires a lot of enrichment to work, and it only get really normal when engine temperature is more than about 60°C and air temperature is at 35°C at last.


Just to make things more clear, here we have some flex engines that work with 100% Hidrated Ethanol and can start about 13°C, but there is 2 ways, one is heating fuel in injectores (special injectors made by Delphi for example) other is software based, when the driver start engine it will never pulse all injectors full bank as usual, the ECU allow Engine to do some revolutions without injections, with WOT (TBI all open) and firing ... after that start small injection making wallfilm until first ignition happens... to achieve this injectors angle and spray are  diferent from Gasoline engines and manifold are all in ABS (plastic) so the heat exchange rate is minor than Aluminium ones.

It´s made this way because if you make a full group injection at start as usual the spark plugs get wet (ethanol makes short-circuits in eletrctode and mass) and in these conditions will never get a spark to occur




So, for E100 don't needs to change KFZWMS?

For E100 is good to keep KFZWOP at the value original? dont make any changes?
Logged
overspeed
Sr. Member
****

Karma: +21/-5
Offline Offline

Posts: 387



« Reply #43 on: July 07, 2015, 12:19:14 PM »

If it´s get better after 3 minuts you are experiencing only LTFT taking it´s place on tuning ME7  Cheesy

Don´t mess with KFZWMS, what do you think this map do ?

KFZWOP you can leave it alone for start as I said before, because you CR is low to Ethanol it will not be a problem, latter, when you´re done with KFZW it MAY (or not) require some refinement in KFZWOP (again, as I said before start with same off-set   KFZW-KFZWOP and go testing it)...

lower TEMIN/TEMINVA will make only injector don´t pulse if it have more dead time than original ones (can´t tell you is it´s the case), but increase it sometimes help when using very big injectors wich can´t open in low pulse times (for example deka60 long EV1 don´t open lessa than 0,7ms...make TEMIN little major than that help you a lot when you are starting the tune, after you tune FKKVS, you can low down it to the real value)
Logged
tjwasiak
Sr. Member
****

Karma: +26/-0
Offline Offline

Posts: 420


« Reply #44 on: July 07, 2015, 12:28:23 PM »

For the injectors:

Gasoline: 14,70:1 and sg is about 0,725
Ethanol:  9,0 to 8,65:1 sg is about 0,811  
(Some authors say 9,00, some - as Marelli, says 8,65)

   14,70/8,65 x (0,725/0,811) = 1,52  (I)
   14,70/9,00 x (0,725/0,811) = 1,46  (II)
Here you are right as I have not taken mass/flow difference into consideration. Still there is more flow needed if you compare rich best torque mixtures - it is just not 94% I mentioned earlier but ~84%. Taking that into consideration I would say Gulfstream has choosen probably a little bit too small injectors for this conversion.

(...)  KFZWOP you can leave it alone for start as I said before, because you CR is low to Ethanol it will not be a problem, latter, when you´re done with KFZW it MAY (or not) require some refinement in KFZWOP (again, as I said before start with same off-set   KFZW-KFZWOP and go testing it)...
I still can not fully agree with you about KFZWOP as you simply insist torque model (which is one of the most important things in ME7) could be left in degenerated state. Adjusting KFZWOP by just shifting it by 5-8* could be much better solution than leaving it stock while still being an ugly hack.

Logged
Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 5
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines Page created in 0.026 seconds with 17 queries. (Pretty URLs adds 0.001s, 0q)