Pages: 1 ... 5 6 [7] 8
Author Topic: me7.1 2.7t mafless error solution  (Read 80285 times)
NOTORIOUS VR
Administrator
Hero Member
*****

Karma: +58/-7
Offline Offline

Posts: 1056


« Reply #90 on: February 27, 2017, 08:42:11 AM »

Got a lot of interresting answer. So I do understand that you are fed of people thinking that mafless will make more power, but this is not my case. I need to tune a big turbo application and when I hit full boost my MAF is maxed out and I don't want to buy a bigger MAF sensor (even if I know that this is the best solution). I agree that the pressure sensor read pressure pre-throttle and at part throttle it won't be really accurate but the car I want to tune like this is not really made to go shopping, I use it to drag race so I am WOT 90% of the time this is why I don't care of part throttle and I don't want to buy a biggest MAF. Actually I don't have skill level to disassemble and add extra feature, so I can't do any variable redirection.
I didn't want to hurt anybody, so let me apologize if some of you has been hurt, I like to learn so I ask...

I don't understand what you people think this is personal.  No one here cares if you want to tune the ECU in limp home mode. 

If it works for your application, go ahead and do it.
Logged

SCHNELL ENGINEERING BLOG ·  STANDALONE ECUS · TUNING · DYNO · WIRING · PARTS · VEMS
Google Talk: NOTORIOUS.VR
n00bs start here: http://s4wiki.com/wiki/Tuning
_nameless
Hero Member
*****

Karma: +342/-466
Offline Offline

Posts: 2800



« Reply #91 on: February 27, 2017, 09:57:32 AM »

I tune 30r, 35r, 6266, 6262 etc mafless with large (890, 1000, 1700, 2200cc) injectors all the time. I can honestly say id rather setup a maffed car over mafless.  lots of fine tuning for large throttle with no maf. most times ill install a maf to get air over throttle maps close then remove the maf after, patch up dtc's and can hack. Mafless works but you are sacrificing resolution over all and requires a lot more fine tuning vs a mafed car. 
Logged

Giving your mom a tuneup
prj
Hero Member
*****

Karma: +1072/-480
Offline Offline

Posts: 6035


« Reply #92 on: February 27, 2017, 12:09:28 PM »

most times ill install a maf to get air over throttle maps close then remove the maf after, patch up dtc's and can hack.
Uhm, you are not supposed to be "tuning" KFMSNWDK or KFWDKMSN. They are simply the amount of air the throttle flows at an angle and the inverse map of that.

This is a constant value depending on the size and angle opening of the throttle valve. The RPM there is mostly unneccessary and is there to correct for intake tract resonances. Basically KFWDKMSN/KFMSNWDK is for the throttle plate like MLHFM*KFKHFM is for the MAF. Nothing to tune there, you take the values for the TB you have and put them in, done. The throttle maps simply encode the intake tract effects into them, but they are very minor - in many ECU's not used at all.

If you are changing those maps on your alpha-n cars you are doing it horribly wrong and do not understand load capture on the ECU Sad

« Last Edit: February 27, 2017, 12:11:12 PM by prj » Logged

PM's will not be answered, so don't even try.
Log your car properly - WinOLS database - Tools/patches
MoparFreak69
Full Member
***

Karma: +5/-2
Offline Offline

Posts: 55



« Reply #93 on: March 05, 2017, 08:11:11 PM »

Call me retarded but isn't the MAF input to the ECU simply just a voltage signal?
Don't MAP sensors output a voltage signal as well?
Why would one not be able to log the MAF reading along side a standalone MAP sensor and find a correlation between the 2? Alter the MAF maps to follow the MAP sensors curve instead of a MAF sensors curve and adjust and tweak as necessary?
Logged
nyet
Administrator
Hero Member
*****

Karma: +607/-168
Online Online

Posts: 12268


WWW
« Reply #94 on: March 05, 2017, 11:20:16 PM »

Pressure != mass air flow

They are two completely different things. converting pressure to mass air flow requires a few other measurements.

Exercise: name them.
Logged

ME7.1 tuning guide
ECUx Plot
ME7Sum checksum
Trim heatmap tool

Please do not ask me for tunes. I'm here to help people make their own.

Do not PM me technical questions! Please, ask all questions on the forums! Doing so will ensure the next person with the same issue gets the opportunity to learn from your ex
prj
Hero Member
*****

Karma: +1072/-480
Offline Offline

Posts: 6035


« Reply #95 on: March 05, 2017, 11:37:48 PM »

Call me retarded but isn't the MAF input to the ECU simply just a voltage signal?
Don't MAP sensors output a voltage signal as well?
Why would one not be able to log the MAF reading along side a standalone MAP sensor and find a correlation between the 2? Alter the MAF maps to follow the MAP sensors curve instead of a MAF sensors curve and adjust and tweak as necessary?

One shows flow, other shows pressure. You could say flow has RPM and engine data embedded into it.
Also, none of these cars have a MAP sensor, the pre-tb sensor is not a MAP sensor.

Now, on cars with actual MAP sensors - if you log airflow and RPM, and translate it to air/hub, then alongside it log MAP, RPM and IAT, you can fill a 3D MAPxRPM map, which tells you air/hub at a certain RPM and pressure ratio and then you still need to correct it by IAT. This table is called a VE table. I recommend you read up on how speed-density works.

This is very much simplified though. Because the MAP signal is much slower and more imprecise compared to the MAF signal - partly due to needing a lot more filtering and because it has to be sampled at a constant time relative to the position of every firing cylinder (as opposed to MAF that can be sampled continously or at an arbitrary interval), the transients in a SD system are usually compensated by an alpha/n blend.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2017, 11:40:46 PM by prj » Logged

PM's will not be answered, so don't even try.
Log your car properly - WinOLS database - Tools/patches
MoparFreak69
Full Member
***

Karma: +5/-2
Offline Offline

Posts: 55



« Reply #96 on: March 06, 2017, 08:17:13 AM »

Considering that the MAF has a 3D correction chart that utilizes RPM and load, I'd be willing to bet that some kind of interface could handle the conversion fairly easily. Might have to give it a go.....
Logged
MoparFreak69
Full Member
***

Karma: +5/-2
Offline Offline

Posts: 55



« Reply #97 on: March 06, 2017, 08:22:41 AM »

Pressure != mass air flow

They are two completely different things. converting pressure to mass air flow requires a few other measurements.

Exercise: name them.

I agree although;
Low air flow (ie throttle plate closed) equals vacuum and therefore a low voltage signal. Remarkably similar to a MAF signal.
Mid airflow (ie part throttle) equals somewhere between vacuum and boost, once again a rise in voltage should be able to be correlated between the two.
WOT will vary between no pressure/vacuum and max boost. As airflow, and as a side result pressure, increases,so does our MAP signal voltage.
The only place where I see this system causing some issues is WOT at max boost pressure.
Logged
prj
Hero Member
*****

Karma: +1072/-480
Offline Offline

Posts: 6035


« Reply #98 on: March 06, 2017, 10:11:43 AM »

I agree although;
Low air flow (ie throttle plate closed) equals vacuum and therefore a low voltage signal. Remarkably similar to a MAF signal.
Mid airflow (ie part throttle) equals somewhere between vacuum and boost, once again a rise in voltage should be able to be correlated between the two.
WOT will vary between no pressure/vacuum and max boost. As airflow, and as a side result pressure, increases,so does our MAP signal voltage.
The only place where I see this system causing some issues is WOT at max boost pressure.

Sorry, but you don't have the slightest idea of what you are on about. Just drop the subject.
You are searching for a "solution" to a "problem" that you invented based on false premises.

ME7 is a speed density ECU, all that is needed is measure pressure directly, modify the asm code a little and tune the VE tables, job done.
It is a problem that has been solved.
Logged

PM's will not be answered, so don't even try.
Log your car properly - WinOLS database - Tools/patches
MoparFreak69
Full Member
***

Karma: +5/-2
Offline Offline

Posts: 55



« Reply #99 on: March 06, 2017, 10:31:03 AM »

Sorry, but you don't have the slightest idea of what you are on about. Just drop the subject.
You are searching for a "solution" to a "problem" that you invented based on false premises.

ME7 is a speed density ECU, all that is needed is measure pressure directly, modify the asm code a little and tune the VE tables, job done.
It is a problem that has been solved.

Unless you are willing to share the coding changes and how you made the maps, people like me who aren't programmers have to find viable alternatives. My idea would work perfectly well. Use a standalone module to emulate a steady voltage signal modified to simulate a MAF signal is very feasible with something like an Arduino system.
Once again, share or stop insulting people trying to attack the situation from a different perspective.
I don't want to run a MAF because I hate them. Plain and simple. I don't care who you are or how good you are, placing even a minor restriction in the intake leaves power potential on the table and speed density systems are much more forgiving.
Logged
nyet
Administrator
Hero Member
*****

Karma: +607/-168
Online Online

Posts: 12268


WWW
« Reply #100 on: March 06, 2017, 10:34:25 AM »

Unless you are willing to share the coding changes and how you made the maps

Converting to speed density is not easy, period.

Quote
people like me who aren't programmers have to find viable alternatives.

If you aren't a programmer, there is literally no way you can change ME7 to be speed density.

Quote
My idea would work perfectly well. Use a standalone module to emulate a steady voltage signal modified to simulate a MAF signal is very feasible with something like an Arduino system.

If this worked, you COULD do it all in a map trivially. But you can't.

Quote
I don't want to run a MAF because I hate them. Plain and simple. I don't care who you are or how good you are, placing even a minor restriction in the intake leaves power potential on the table and speed density systems are much more forgiving.

Ridiculous. Just about every part of this statement is wrong.
Logged

ME7.1 tuning guide
ECUx Plot
ME7Sum checksum
Trim heatmap tool

Please do not ask me for tunes. I'm here to help people make their own.

Do not PM me technical questions! Please, ask all questions on the forums! Doing so will ensure the next person with the same issue gets the opportunity to learn from your ex
MoparFreak69
Full Member
***

Karma: +5/-2
Offline Offline

Posts: 55



« Reply #101 on: March 06, 2017, 10:44:20 AM »

If you could emulate the MAF signal with an external device, there would be no need to dig into ME's programming.

I honestly couldn't care any less if you agree or disagree with my opinion on MAFs. You like them, run them. I don't like them so I'm finding ways to not run them.
Logged
nyet
Administrator
Hero Member
*****

Karma: +607/-168
Online Online

Posts: 12268


WWW
« Reply #102 on: March 06, 2017, 10:50:52 AM »

If you could emulate the MAF signal with an external device, there would be no need to dig into ME's programming.

You still need a real MAP (not a pre-tb pressure sensor), RPM, IAT, and a VE table, all three of which still need to be calibrated, and you still need to be a "programmer" to write the algorithms.

Yes, you can do it using a MAF as a reference, and go through every possible RPM/IAT/pressure combination.

Quote
I honestly couldn't care any less if you agree or disagree with my opinion on MAFs. You like them, run them. I don't like them so I'm finding ways to not run them.

Why is it that everybody that hates them doesn't have an objective reason for "hating" them? It defies explanation. Speed density is a huge hack. MAFs were invented to get around it.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2017, 10:52:37 AM by nyet » Logged

ME7.1 tuning guide
ECUx Plot
ME7Sum checksum
Trim heatmap tool

Please do not ask me for tunes. I'm here to help people make their own.

Do not PM me technical questions! Please, ask all questions on the forums! Doing so will ensure the next person with the same issue gets the opportunity to learn from your ex
MoparFreak69
Full Member
***

Karma: +5/-2
Offline Offline

Posts: 55



« Reply #103 on: March 06, 2017, 11:01:59 AM »

You still need a real MAP (not a pre-tb pressure sensor), RPM, IAT, and a VE table, all three of which still need to be calibrated, and you still need to be a "programmer" to write the algorithms.

Yes, you can do it using a MAF as a reference, and go through every possible RPM/IAT/pressure combination.

Why is it that everybody that hates them doesn't have an objective reason for "hating" them? It defies explanation. Speed density is a huge hack. MAFs were invented to get around it.


Simple basic programming is much easier to learn than disassembling Bosch's programming and altering it.

Many people who have dealt with MAFs limitations and high failure rates despise them, much as as I do. They are finicky, prone to change reading values over there lifetime, shock sensitive, etc etc.
Logged
MoparFreak69
Full Member
***

Karma: +5/-2
Offline Offline

Posts: 55



« Reply #104 on: March 06, 2017, 11:03:30 AM »

Also when I stated standalone MAP, I was obviously not referring to the boost sensor.
Logged
Pages: 1 ... 5 6 [7] 8
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines Page created in 0.06 seconds with 17 queries. (Pretty URLs adds 0s, 0q)