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jibberjive
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« Reply #105 on: February 08, 2013, 11:59:49 PM »
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It's pretty much his own kingdom of ignorance over there, as most constructive people do this when they find that forum  |
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boomerro
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« Reply #106 on: February 09, 2013, 12:29:02 AM »
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Meow, are you really so bored between audirevolution and AZ that you gotta troll and spew dumb shit here?
You have been registered here for a while, haven't seen any contributions here other than you now calling everyone and everything into question ethically and legally? How many files have you downloaded? How many have you uploaded?
You confuse the fuck out of me honestly, one minute swinging from kurts nuts, next bashing him, next minute going for a ride on tonys balls, then shit talking him all over AR.
You need to figure out you. Stay away from nef if you want to play your little two faced games that I am certain this is just another of. BTW nice signature, you are so transparent and really not that smart. Stop the games or just keep alienating yourself everywhere, your choice.
Didn't expect this from you man. Thought you would understand. I wouldn't call anything I put in this thread "spewing dumb shit"... This threaded was started to specifically talk about the legality and morality of 'what is stealing'. I did not start anything up here at all. I just wanted to get some info from you guys about the technicalities. I was unaware of the background of developing xdf files for tunerpro. After the thread on audizine got technical i deceded to seek out those who have more info on the subject than me. Not trying to kiss ass, i literally didnt m know how xdf files were develope so I came here to ask. I wanted to see if they were something built off stolen or unethically obtained info. This offended a lot of people here. This was not my intent. I am sorry for being ignorant in the development of xdf files, I guess no one here has sought out information before... Stop the drama. Stop trying to attack my moral compass here. This thread and my posts are not attacks or accusations of you all being immoral theifs. It would be nice to just find out information and have an interesting discussion without people breathing down my throat and accusing me of being two faced. The Kurt, tony, audirevolution bull needs to stay off this forum. I didn't bring this crap up and try hard not to. Please leave that garbage drama elsewhere. |
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The goal of this site is to openly discuss ME7 tuning and promote good practices.
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boomerro
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« Reply #107 on: February 09, 2013, 12:42:35 AM »
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What constitutes stealing when it comes to ECU tunes?
Technically all ME7 tuners are only modifying the systems that were made by Bosch. No one says we are stealing from Bosch by enabling systems that are disabled in OEM engine computers. No one says we are stealing from Bosch by tuning data to produce more power then the OEM tunes due.
Thoughts?
I think I was very on topic with this... Far from trolling or spewing shit. So yeah, keep the drama out of this thread please. |
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The goal of this site is to openly discuss ME7 tuning and promote good practices.
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nyet
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« Reply #108 on: February 09, 2013, 03:06:31 AM »
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boomerro
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« Reply #109 on: February 11, 2013, 10:49:44 PM »
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This is one of the most interesting subjects I have encountered recently... I really want to learn more about this. |
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NOTORIOUS VR
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« Reply #110 on: February 12, 2013, 07:38:16 AM »
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LOL yea.
How can a guy that knows so little about cars jabber on like that?
He likes to hear himself talk and have people pat him on the back |
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userpike
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« Reply #111 on: February 12, 2013, 12:03:24 PM »
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He likes to hear himself talk and have people pat him on the back
did you get my pm? |
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03a4b6ztk
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« Reply #112 on: August 21, 2013, 04:10:29 PM »
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This thread was going so great, then ole boy opened his mouth.
That aside, I work in IT(hardware side of the house), now when I have a problem that I need a piece of software to fix, I hire an outside entity to develop that software, I am paying for his time and knowledge on the subject(programming) to develop a piece of software to do what I want it too, with the inputs I have provided.
Once I receive this program it is my Companies property in whichever fashion you want to call it, "intellectual" etc... If my in house programmers can look at the code and tell me how they can modify it to work better or adjust it down the road for advancements/changes in the company or to our process then it is our property now to do as such with. We are not required to call the person we paid to write it for us and ask permission to modify it because it was never his to begin with.
Pretty simple if you ask me....
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icarus
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« Reply #113 on: February 11, 2014, 09:50:45 AM »
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If i look at a professional tune and compare it to a stock tune i then can see what they changed. if i then go to make my own tune it would inherently have similar changes. Did i just steal the work? no. changing A/F ratios and adjusting spark is likely to be similar among knowledgeable tuners. there are only so many ways to add power and should be standard among tuners and if somebody has a setting WAY out there from another tune then they are probably just an idiot. any stage 1 tune for the same car should be similar among many tuners. i mean nobody is going to add an extra 20* of spark advanced compared to others. so 2 tunes from two different tuners (if they are both of the same quality) should be very close, but neither stole from the other. so its not stealing but laziness if you start with someone else's tune and tweak it if you could have come to the same conclusion on your own with more time.
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userpike
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« Reply #114 on: February 11, 2014, 01:23:47 PM »
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This thread was going so great, then ole boy opened his mouth.
That aside, I work in IT(hardware side of the house), now when I have a problem that I need a piece of software to fix, I hire an outside entity to develop that software, I am paying for his time and knowledge on the subject(programming) to develop a piece of software to do what I want it too, with the inputs I have provided.
Once I receive this program it is my Companies property in whichever fashion you want to call it, "intellectual" etc... If my in house programmers can look at the code and tell me how they can modify it to work better or adjust it down the road for advancements/changes in the company or to our process then it is our property now to do as such with. We are not required to call the person we paid to write it for us and ask permission to modify it because it was never his to begin with.
Pretty simple if you ask me....
Did you know that since the Playstation Network was hacked, Sony changed the user agreements for the Playstaion gaming consoles? Basically It states that you are renting the unit indefinitely and any hardware or software inside is solely owned by Sony. So what if the tuner has the same kind of legal documentation for their software? Are we really even allowed to dig into Bosch's ECU software and make changes without being licensed? |
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littco
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« Reply #115 on: February 12, 2014, 02:39:04 AM »
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Did you know that since the Playstation Network was hacked, Sony changed the user agreements for the Playstaion gaming consoles? Basically It states that you are renting the unit indefinitely and any hardware or software inside is solely owned by Sony.
So what if the tuner has the same kind of legal documentation for their software?
Are we really even allowed to dig into Bosch's ECU software and make changes without being licensed?
Problem with sony agreement is that it's between sony and the original purchaser, if they then sell it on, that user agreement is no longer valid and the purchaser legally needs to obtain sonys permission to resell it, as in theory you never own it but hire it.. I'm sure this will come unstuck for sony in court soon! Also if you are renting an item and it becomes faulty, then you are entitled for it to be fixed for free as it's not actually your item... I can understand software being rented but not hardware! |
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dream3R
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« Reply #116 on: February 12, 2014, 05:17:46 AM »
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My 2p.
The ECU's are supplied to the manufacturer on a perpetual license and resold to the end user.
So we own the ECU and it's software, it is our right to modify it. Hence paying someone or tuning it yourself is fine.
Moving on to who owns the tune, if you buy it you own it simples, however I don't think publishing other peoples 'work' is fair.
You can say most pro's will have worked hard for it and it shouldn't be made public.
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julex
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« Reply #117 on: February 27, 2014, 07:39:48 AM »
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No ECU manufacturer (or whoever owns the rights to sell/dictributed it, not clear to me if that's say VW/Audi or Bosch) ever cared to sue a tuner but I am fairly sure that they could easily since they are modifying and SELLING IP of theirs for FINANCIAL gain. Taking Windows with license id of XYZ, permanently modifying it and then using that single copy to flahs to 100s of other computers, even if they already had some other copy of Windows with their respective keys is still violating a license of Windows' XYZ license. This is the same with most of other software. The only reason why they (BOsch/VW/Audi) don't sue the tuners is since they don't care as they're not losing any money on it, they even might gain by symbiotic relationship where old audi/vw cars that are very tunable keep up the value causing spill over effect to their new cars (keeping their future resale value higher which commands higher price for new units). My 2p.
The ECU's are supplied to the manufacturer on a perpetual license and resold to the end user.
So we own the ECU and it's software, it is our right to modify it. Hence paying someone or tuning it yourself is fine.
Moving on to who owns the tune, if you buy it you own it simples, however I don't think publishing other peoples 'work' is fair.
You can say most pro's will have worked hard for it and it shouldn't be made public.
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Lost
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« Reply #118 on: February 27, 2014, 09:15:56 AM »
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Well, I did not make mine, but i paid well for it.
Now it is mine, and I believe i can do with it what I want too.
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nyet
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« Reply #119 on: February 27, 2014, 10:48:09 AM »
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Well, I did not make mine, but i paid well for it.
Now it is mine, and I believe i can do with it what I want too.
There are two independent questions: what is moral, and what is legal. Copyright law restricts redistribution, not modification (or even reverse engineering/hacking). Patent law restricts redistribution of products made from patented technology. There are no "reverse engineering" restructions to patented technology since (ostensibly) the technology and its methods are publicly (and fully) disclosed in the patent itself. Morality/ethics are far more subjective and arguing over that will never get anybody anywhere. |
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