NefMoto

Hello!

Last day i am spoke with builder of heavy-modified RS4 B5 engine. He ask me about mafless tuning of the RS4 SW. Yes, according to MLHFM stock RS4 MAF overflow only near 550 g/s (600+ hp), but he dont whant MAF under the hood.
So, i am searching info about this, but not clear understand some moments.

1. When MAF is unplugged, ME7 go to the limp mode with only 1440 millibar without boost regulation, right?. What codewort i must change for no limp mode and normal boost regulation,  or external boost controller is only option?

2. How ME7 calculate load without MAF signal? Based on TPS-RPM-MAP signal?

3. Is the 2550 millibar stock map-hard limit for mafless car? With MAF, this is possible rise up boost higher then this.

Any ideas about this?

Thank you.

The MAFless is a nice option which I like to set on VAGs over 500hp

For MAFless setups your ECU must be the wideband one so wideband lambda always stays at closed loop even though in WOT conditions and keeps the AFR always as close to the target!
In non wideband ECUs (400bb) I don't suggest it, If you still want it, keep one boost setup only!

Load is the TP on MAFless.... MAP there is only for boost controling!
:)

I prefer always to tune ECU and give the car owner to have 2 options at the same time....
MAFless or MAF enabled! This requires perfect injectors calibration!

S4 ECU's are all Narrow band, even though some use 800 flash chips.

Rick

for narrowband ECUs I don't suggest MAFless...

If you try it, you must have installed a wideband sensor and gauge all time in the engine!

How would you approach this with the S4?

Also, what to do about the MAP limit?

on the MAFless tune, Load is TP!

MAP is only for boost controling!

Thats not true :) In properly configured MAFless tune, load is boost depend, and it can be done on narrow band ECUs without problem too ;)

It's MAP dependant, then TP dependant if MAP sensor fails.

and what about when you go over the MAP limit? TP again?

If you're over Map how is the ecu to tell how much is going on? Mafless on 1.8t+ is only possible b/c of wideband o2s. If they didn't have wideband o2, they would be all running MAF tunes.

Over MAP limit and when MAP sensor fail.........both are other stories and they are different each to other ;)

If you use stock MAP sensor then you have "limit" 1.5bar boost, but if you install 3bar MAP sensor then you can run 2bar boost problem free, really i dont try to install 3.5 or 4bar MAPs but with 3bar there is not any problem to run MAFless.
And one more time i need to point that MAFless tunes are not only for wide band ECUs, they can be done on narrow band with same success ;)

its possible w/o throwing codes, or adjusting the 0 bar point?

http://www.nefariousmotorsports.com/forum/index.php/topic,263.0title,.html

What codes you think it will throw with 3bar MAP ?  ::)

Don't know, never tried one. I assumed there would be problems around the 0 (1 absolute) bar point but I guess not?

That and i was unsure how to tune speed/density mode (dead MAF) with an underscaled MAP. Can you give any tips?

Tips.....they are simple......buy legal WinOLS and OLS300 emulator, after that all is a lot easier........ ;) But when you spend such(and bigger) amount of money to get knowledge, then its not so reasonable to give anyone that knowledge for free, that's my point of view :)

Anyway there are not problems or strange codes with 3bar MAP and without MAF if software is made properly ;)

And if everybody believed that way we'd still live in caves trying to figure out fire. Shrug.

I mean that without wideband, ECU cannot control in closed loop AFR in WOT conditions.
To do it on a non wideband ECU, the tuner must calibrate injectors with a totally perfections, setting correct lag and all maps related, and keep fuel trims close to zero!
Am I right kelesha?

I've tuned speed density well over the MAP sensor limit before.  If you are running 2 bar, with a 1.5 bar map sensor, then you run a little rich between 1.5 and 2 bar.  On ME7 simply use KFLF to add extra fuel at the maximum load sites.  I'm actually doing this at the moment because I peg the std S4 MAF at 5000rpm, and it works beautifully.  Another way is to increase LAMFA & KFLBTS maps - I don't like doing this though as the EGT calcs alter as the ECU thinks it is richer than it is.

Running rich between 1.5 and 2 bar isn't really a problem.  The boost is climbing here so quickly that you will only be between 1.5 and 2 bar for a fraction of a second - once you are at 2 bar it will fuel correctly.

Rick

If ECU need to correct fuel on WOT by wideband feedback then......tune inside is bad. Best way to check fueling is on the dyno with external wideband and disconected from car O2 sensors, thats can be done on both narrow or wide band cars......
And when we talk about fuel trims.......i found myself that sometimes they are useless for high powered cars, you still can have lambda controll but without adaptation, so you can switch off LTFT and use only STFT on wide band cars for safety reasons, on narrow band cars my practise is to remove all 02 sensors so no triming possible at all :)

Yes that can be done of course, but why ? Proper way is to use 3bar map for 2bar boost then you can have fine fueling on whole boost ranges.........and one plug and play 3bar MAP for VAG cars cost 40 euro only :)

Can you explain that a bit more detailed?
What does adaptation has to do with the power level of a car?

Is that MAP on this list?

http://s4wiki.com/wiki/MAP#Bosch

Yes of course, plug and play 3bar MAP is with 051C number :)

simple, if LTFT is adapted not close to zero then is mess on WOT fueling and reduce engine performance by lean or rich condition...........if the car have wideband lambda controll then it can compensate fueling, but that is safety function and sometimes even its not sufficient and engine can goes on limp mode from incorect fueling and reached limits of lambda controll range......

Yes you are right, I am getting used to calibrate injectors as 830cc or 1000cc without front O2 or deactivate for the tuning procedure LTFT and STFT.
When I say that a MAFless is not the best on non wideband, I mean that you have not the safety feature of closing TP if the AFR is quite leaner from Lambda Target which we set...

I am not talking for dragster cars that need only WOT. I am talking for example for a classic family car 1.8T which is 500hp and the owner want to do travels with it. So, I usually make them work with both MAF and MAFless options.

Of course on drag cars you don't need almost anything on the car as torque model, MAF and O2 sensors etc!

Narrow band cars have continuous lean safety feature too........but funny is that most users here won't believe that  8)

Car with 500hp from 1.8T engine is all other, but not "classic family car".......... ;D

If you retain ME7 then is best to run with torque model enabled even on drag or other racing cars, if you disable torque model then you kill 70% of your ECU ;)

So on WOT you say that a narrowband ECU runs closed loop and make TP cuts? All the narrowband ECUs that I have tuned I have found in any that safety feature enabled, ONLY on wideband version I see this.
Some exception there are on some narrowband ECUs that transform Lambda request to Narrowband O2 voltage requested, and this can be seen on block 32.
But on 1.8T 400bb ECU, this feature is OFF!
If you have any examples you can share with me :)

In Greece we have some of the most powerful 4cyl engines around the world. I can say that there are a lot of FAMILY CARS with power around 400 - 600hp. There are a lot of examples on each month magazines!
;)

About torque model you are correct by killing 70%+ of the ECU, but you have also some benefits that a drag car will need, but it is not the right place to discuss that! ;)

Either I don't understand you right or you have a very strange way of calibrating.
You can calibrate what the adaptation does and what not, and it is indeed pretty useful to cover variations in fuel quality for example. Same with lambda control. I'm down with you that the precontroled values for all variables are key, but do you really think that you can cover all influences like ambient conditiones (height, temperature) without any control circuits? Do you have a dyno in a climate chamber which can vary pressure and temperature to calibrate that, let alone hardware differences if you use the software on different engines.

With some stuff I read here I really wonder if the guys that obviously calibrate other peoples engines really test some fault conditions and the consequences or just throw in something and hope everything will work out right.

How you mess fuel quality and knock adaptation here ? :) I talk about LTFT i.e Long Term Fuel Trim, its havent anything to done with fuel quality........


Like i wrote you, you can have only STFT i.e Short Term Fuel Trim enabled (without LTFT adaptation) and its sufficient to cover all temp and altitude conditions.........read what i wrote in detail please ;)


Sometimes i wonder the same, but hope all they done that, even when Motronic is smart enough to cover 90% of "bad tune errors" to save the engine.... :)

Thats not exactly "closed loop" like for lambda 1, but yes ECU still monitor mixture on WOT and if mixture is lean when ECU expect rich then it add fuel and you can see this on STFT value immediately  8)

So seems you have different expectation from narrow band ECUs..........no they react different than widebands, for narrow band 11:1 and 13:1 both are rich mixture so no correction needed, for wideband they are not and ECU apply correction, but when we talk for 16:1 and 11:1 then for both sensors mixtures are different i.e first is lean, second is rich, so on both cases ECU apply correction  8)

I dont believe that in Greece there are "a lot" 1.8T cars with real 500+hp for everyday driving :) If there are such please show me some examples or tell me where to look exactly ? :)

For what benefits you wrote about what you can have only with torque model disabled ?

I can confirm too that there are many greek cars with 500hp and daily driving usage.

I'm not talking about knock resistance but different AFR of different pump fuels. Ever have seen a fuel analysis of a petro lab ? Would be surprised what difference this can make. I was also mostly refering to your statement with turning of lambda control.
Also I wouldn't too much rely on the safety features of the ECU, especially with all the scaling of signals, because all this has only been tested with stock conditions and not 30psi boost.
All this stuff is there for a reason and the basic calibration strategy is the same no matter the power level be it a 1l 3cyl Skoda Fabia or a 8l 16cyl Bugatti. Sure if you have it only for the track you don't need a lot of functions but for a DD fuel adaptation is a useful feature.

No, I doubt there are "many cars" with 500+hp from 1.8T engine.......because to reach 500 real horses from 1.8T engine is not that easy  ;)

Thats really long topic, but......when we talk about performance, long term fuel adaptations are absolutely useless ;)

If you mean that, then you are totally correct. I thought you mean that narrowband ECUs runs the same as wideband (trying to keep the target)...


In Greece the style of "The fast drag car closed in the garage" has been passed. Now all trying to find the Golden Mean. That means that they want a Trip car - street racing car - legan car... The 2 last years appeared a lot! 8)
450hp on a 1.8T engine with 100octane fuel is not that difficult (stock head - stock cams)
600hp on an Opel Bertone 2.0T with 100octane is not that difficult (stock head - stock cams)
Look at Greek forums and magazines or I can contact you sending you some examples from my work, or friend tuners work! :)
Posting here will be a big off topic, and this topic is for MAFless

On a performace car/ Race car/ Drag car / Street racing car, LTFT are useless and I agree. But I am talking about a quite powerful normal/family car! 8)

With stock head even "big port" and stock cams 450hp are possible but only on the dyno with good cooling system and without knock at all.....on the highway such dyno queens are even lower than 400hp with sky high EGTs ;)

Z20LET engine ? 600hp with stock head ? No way !!! :)

I agree with you. When i talk about 500hp i mean high powered cars maybe they have 400 but the point is, that there are everyday use cars with high power output that they are also used by their owners to go with their family for shopping etc and not only in dragstripts.
Sorry i am off topic.

I speak always for Maha Dynos and ISO correction, of course with fine cooling systems as dyno starts with 25 - 30 IAT...
And in Athens we have 2 dynos like this!

Why without knock? The knock control is calibrated also for high octane fuels, but it still. Factory knock control tunes restrict a lot the benefits of a high octane fuel and high timing values!

 8)

So is electronic throttle control, torque model s.o. All this doesn't make a difference powerwise if calibrated right, but gives you the chance to cover a lot more situation with your calibration  ;)

You cant compare torque model/ETC with LTFT. Torque model with ETC are base(heart) of ME7, and in same time LTFT is simple function what is needed on stock cars to reach certain conditions in short time. When we talk for LTFT then we can compare it with catalitic heating function on ME7, both have almost such priority and both can be disabled on high performance cars without problem  8)

The only benefit I can see of disabling LTFT is on a race car where you are wanting to keep within very tight tolerances, and a change in fuel trim must have been caused by a change in air mass an therefore power.

Rick

I'm not talking about ME7 but calibration and ECU functions in general.
BTW cat heating is a hole other case, because this function is really only there to pass emmission tests.  ;) 
 

Anyone ever see this?  Looks pretty interesting :)

MAFemulator 3:
http://www.turbo-garage.com.ua/item.php?category=mafemulator&part=0

Wow-alot of interesting talks, thanks!

But maybe somebody tell me-what codeworte i must disable in me7 with MAFless, for switch back motronic from limp mode to normal mode? I dont whant to use external boost controller etc.

x2  I'd really like to know how to prevent the ECu from throwing itself into limp and also allow the ABS/ESP to function without the MAF's load input anymore

For ABS/ESP you have to tune CAN coding on ECU. ECU sends signals to ESP module via CAN and when MAF is unplugged then ESP goes OFF.

You can have ME7 boost control with MAFless of course, torque model is still there...

;)

But when MAF is eliminated, there will be limp-mode in motronic. Same as in situation, when EGT sensors or front lambdas fall. In limp mode, there is only about 1440 millibar of requested boost, regardless of what we have in LDRXN map. Or i am wrong and MAF absence is light error without limp mode (like second lambdas error for example)? 

Exactly, so how to prevent this?

Any further thoughts on coding out the maf, so that ESP/ABS doesn't freak out

Mantis, run a maf, pre or post turbo doesnt really matter much because even the rich condition on shifts can be tuned out with the pre turbo setup and a bov, if you are running re-circ then all the better/easier for you.  I am ordering the pro-m 3" tube soon.  look into it, the price is right.  it is intended for blow through and i really suggest you go this route if your plumbing is setup to allow it.  both turbo and bov must be before the maf for the blow through to work right.

Btw- i am not knocking on any poster here, because everyone has a right to post whatever they want, but I wish there were less winks and leading talk and more actual tech on posts like this.  a few of you in particular are telling us you know for a fact how to do something and that it will work well on the 2.7t and 1.8t.  instead of flexing your e-knowledge muscles maybe actually tell us how to do it.

not a demand, just a suggestion from another user and thanks you for the information you have provided, however vague it may be.

sorry for the thread jack, my opinion on the main topic of the thread is that I have built all sorts of crap new and old, the stuff with a maf always runs the best.  dont defeat great tech when you can set it up properly for any setup. my $.02

^^^ Agreed with everything you said.

That said, I think I'm going to copy julex's setup:

I just don't have the room to run it on the inlet, the outlet is not ideal either

I have same setup (800 hp+ Rs4)

I am runing without maf but ESP/ABS is totally disabled because of it.

Anyone know a solution to run ESP/ABS without Maf?

Thanks

Yep but certainly not for free.

no problem, i can pay for it,

who will help me about this issue?

What fault codes do you have?

Which file are you using?

Only error is P0102 Mass signal too low.

I am using the file which prepared by myself

So how am I supposed to look at the code if all I get is "I am using the file which prepared by myself." What is the exact numbers of the software?  ::)

Hahaha sorry, i understand wrong.

8D0907551F is the my version.
http://nyet.org/cars/files/stock/8D0907551F.bin

My ME7.5 MAFless file sets 2 codewords to 0 to prevent the CEL from showing from MAF sensor voltage too low.

after that esp and abs started to work properly?

Can't say for ESP as I don't have it but my ABS works fine.

Unfortunately, almost everyone in several of the qualified tuners clubs feels like that. I heard that most club's  members who share information are summarily shot.

Can anyone comment on blow-through setups, and oil mist in the tract? I would assume no one plumbs crankcase vents back into the intake like OE, but what about stuff getting past the turbo seals? Is this an issue?

Hm... I'll try to make my me7.5 live without maf. Currently investigating diagnostic function of maf to disable it so no errors would be shown. Next step will be to either find cw or hack air flow path. I'll post my progress here since nobody else is willing to do this "for free".

This is not correct way to run a ME7 without a MAF.

I have hacked my me7.5 to work without post cat o2, even though I literally had to hack it for lsu to work. I really am not here to debate on "correct" way just doing it for my own amusement :) alpha-n is ok for me

Just finished with DHFM. Strange, I thought there is something like CDDHFM to skip diagnostics, but found only CDEHFM, which is already zeroed out. I guess it is inactive anyway in my file. So to set DHFM to pass one needs to zero out KFMLDMN map. That will disable min flow error. Do not know yet if we'll get signal error afterwards or not, but I'll check tomorrow. If anyone knows a better way to pass DHFM then please step up :)

UPDATE:
I think that last piece of a puzzle is in BGMSZS. I am positive that two hacks applied there will be enough (see attached images) to force me into alpha-n.

P.S> I haven't tested it yet but I'll test everything on my car tomorrow. Also it will be interesting to see if ESP and everything else will work...

 ;D

Also this hack needed to switch to calculated airflow path

Finished scanning through FR. I see no way to do everything via codewords, but the good news is that I think only 3 hacks are needed + 1 map to edit. So here is my current V2 suggestion for mafless me7.5:

[DHFM] disable maf diagnostics:
KFMLDMN = -910s

LOG:
B_hfm = 1
B_ehfm = 0
E_lm = 0
Z_lm = 1

[BGMSZS] switch calculated airflow:
--[UMSCHALT] switch from rlflmroh_w (MAF) to rlfdkroh_w (calculated) by using hack1 (B_hfm forced 0)
--[BFKMSDK] disable fkmsdk_w (diff factor between maf and calculated values) by using hack2 (B_ehfm forced 1)
--[FGABGL] use static msndko_w (leak in tp) by using hack3 (B_ehfm forced 1)

LOG:
fkmsdk_w = 1
msndko_w = 0
dfuelsan_w = 0

Talk about going at it completely the wrong way.

Even if you want to run it with the pre-throttle sensor, everything you posted here isn't needed.

So how would YOU do it? Isn't it exact same path that ecu takes when maf is disconnected?

Just dropped here to say that test of my mafless version was successful. No hickups, no limp mode, no anything. Every single cycle bit is also set. Logs attached. Also I think this is way "cleaner" than hiding errors by disabling error classes :)

I do it like this:
http://prj-tuning.com/files/pics/20150417_192017.jpg (http://prj-tuning.com/files/pics/20150417_192017.jpg)

But if I wanted to run it in limp mode on secondary air path, I would disable the mass flow too low fault class, and then ECU automatically does everything needed.
Single value change vs your one million changes.

And for ESP there is another single byte patch to fix it.

Well with my approch there is no actual limp mode (even hidden one via error class). Everything works perfectly, no loss of power too. Just need to adjust airflow per throttle plate angle map if tb is different. Also no need for any esp patches - everything works out of box. Btw only three jumps need editing + 1map. I wouldnt call it a million... As a side plus - all the cycle bits are set as they should be. But i suppose that theres more than one way to skin a cat... Atleast now some info regarding mafless is for everyone to see...

Of course there is. The secondary air path IS limp mode. You are just hacking the limp mode to be constantly on.
That's not true, and it never will be. Secondary load does not work well in vacuum conditions and on transients.

The only correct way to do this, is how I showed you. And this is why the factory does it this way on TT-RS (2 pressure sensors) and RS6 V10TT (3 pressure sensors).
What you did can be 1:1 replicated by changing 2 bytes.

Prj, to confirm, do you use the maf input for the second map sensor?

Also, no n249  ;D

'limp' mode implies running at a lower|limited performance level. I'm not sure running 'alternative' air path means 'limp' as much as it does 'alternative'. Just MO. 

A blind person can run just as fast as someone who can see. ..... on a flat sureface.... with no obsticles.....




Also, I don't see much difference between a MAF/narrowband car and a MAFless/wideband car.

Is it AUDI TT RS 2.5 TFSI, engine code CEPB, ECU 8J0907404* (P, Q)?
It would be interesting to look at how they configured it :)

N249 is already fitted, the car came to us without, sure I use the MAF input, but you can use any 0-5V input you like, for example rear o2.

Secondary air path = limp mode.
It is precisely reduced accuracy of load measurement. This is why ESP does not want to work with this out of the box.
If you don't see the difference, then so be it - the OEM clearly does, and you can argue with Bosch about it, not with me.

This is also why TT-RS is using two pressure sensors and wideband.

But hey, keep running cars in limp mode with MBC's. Who cares as long as it runs on WOT right?

TT-RS only uses one pressure sensor as a load input, and it's the appropriately named MAP sensor (psr). pvd is used for boost control purposes only.

Yup, exactly. Same like the 2.7TT in the picture above.

The RS6 V10 has three pressure sensors, two for boost control pre-throttles and 1 in the manifold.

I've probably done more C6 RS6s than you could dream of dmitri, and I think I knew what was on them before you even started thinking about tuning cars :)

So the question is how do tell the ECU to use a true MAP sensor (downstream of tb) instead of a MAF.

Honestly, it doesn't matter who thought of it first, only whoever publishes their knowledge first. If nobody wants to do that, that is fine, but don't expect any accolades for saying "I know this and you don't" :P

I have an idea about how prj is doing this, but I'll let him post it up, as there would be no way for me to know exactly what he's done. The neatest way would be to recompile a new file with the load calculation part taken entirely from a MAP sensor ME7 file, but that's way beyond my abilities, I can only dream of it...

I never implied I thought of it first, because the first ones who ever thought about it were Bosch :) I only meant to say that I've known about what's on an RS6 and/or TT-RS since way before they came out, and that's a FACT, nothing more, nothing less.

I love baked macaroni and cheese.

I'd hook up a MAP to the MAF input, re-use MLHFM to generate a pressure, and I suppose you could write up some code that calcs load thusly:

rl = (MAP sensor reading) * fupsrl * fpbrkds - rfagr

then somehow stuff the result where it needs to go.

Not sure how many places MAF readings are used, but somehow hopefully those are easy to disable.

Doesn't seem like a trivial change, unless there is pre-existing infrastructure in ME7 that does all this for you, as prj has implied.

Or i guess just override ps_w directly, instead of having it integrate as a result of rl_w.

Me too.

7 pages of awesome

Pro tip, when you make baked mac n cheese, always use tillamook and also fill the pan with about half an inch of whole milk.

I have been making mac n cheese since before ddillinger knew what cheese was. That's a fact.

I'll just say this - one thing is theory, the other one is actually having a practical working solution.

The logic change isn't the issue, and anyone who understands ME7 can figure out how to do this in 5 minutes.
The issue is correct sampling and filtering, as any SD implementation samples the sensor crank/cylinder-sync and applies good jitter correction, to get a steady signal. This is where the majority of effort goes into.

After that it's just calibration. Mainly ESUK, due to the largely unknown fact that a MAP sensor signal is much slower than a MAF in transient conditions.

I have no interest on posting the solution, I've done enough. This time I'll just sit back with the popcorn. I've so far converted 2 other ECU generations to SD besides ME7 and faced all the challenges associated. ME7 is by far the easiest.

i`m using MAF input as 0-5 voltage input for doing something, but i have no MAF, i have no limp, i have only one MAP before throttle, i have working ESP. Since I cheat the ECU and use a mathematical model to calculate the air, instead of the actual sensor readings. And it`s only few bytes in code changes.

I still don't see the obsession to run these ECU's maf-less... it makes no sense what so ever.

if you want examples..
engine bay layout, direct intake to turbos with 2 highflowfilters, cold intake without Y, very high maxflow with good 780 idle rpm(big MAF sensitivity is crap)

Still doesn't make any sense, as you can always do a blow through setup easily capable of 1000whp without issue.

There really is no good reason to run without a MAF what so ever.

MAF setups runs much better in daily driven cars as they adapts much better to different air temperature and humidity.

What is needed to convert from the standard configuration to blow-through in general?

I haven't done one yet, but I doubt it would take more then properly calibrating the MAF tables.

An HPX MAF and a love for perfectly linear fueling.

What is the consensus with using an OEM ford (mustang and others) slot sensor instead of an HPX?clicky click (http://www.msextra.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=94&t=57942)

Most oem sensors don't get good readings in blow through. Mainly if it has internal temp caps happening, it reports really low air flow because the extreme heat.

And what is wrong with such readings? IMHO it reads real values as MAF should compensate for air temperature internally (by hardware). Perhaps one should try to install such MAF post intercooler to have more meaningful airflow values.

Theory is a nice thing, unfortunately practice is different.

It was done years ago man, it doesn't work for shit. I personally spent a lot of time on this.

How many sensors got oil fouled? lol.

The charge path is a very inhospitable place.

without MAF with approriate calibrations it runs very good, like with MAF. You will not notice the difference. I tried it too
new vag engines has no MAF )) its all

My two cents: unless you know how to properly set up ME7 to run MAFless (I do not, and wasn't even aware ME7 was designed to work that way outside of a MAF failure), you should stick to running a MAF. I understand that plumbing one can be difficult in some applications, and that blow-through has its own pitfalls.. but the "unplug the MAF and code out a bunch of stuff" method seems pretty dumb.

I would like to know more about the proper way to run MAFless. I can see a bunch of different ways it is possible from scanning the FR, but don't know enough to make it work properly.

Agreed,

but let's be real here, there are tons of other platforms using OEM MAF's and other sensors like HPX in blow-through configs without any sort of issue at all.  So it's obviously not as big of an issue as it's made out to be for a normal running engine. 

In so many words he already told us he jacked the load section of the code from the TTRS

So there´s no real conclusion on how to do this properly?

I´d like to implement a clean way into our Siemens ecus to go Alpha/n and having a starting point would help.

prj, which maps in ESUK module have you edited to compensate for slower map response (initial afr jump after throttle plate opening/close before o2 kicks in)? I haven't gotten into ESUK yet, but would like a headstart here.

P.S> what about increasing ZBAKM and ZVAKM for faster response?

Preach

New VAG engines also have a MAP sensor in the manifold. Cars with a MAF from factory do not.

MAF MAP A5 FSI

Does the thing actually have a MAF?
Just because the SIMOS damos lists MAF_SP does not mean there is a physical MAF sensor (same goes for MAP).

Yes normally MAP with those but I would be surprised if Bosch would strive for anything less than measuring the first cubic mm of air that enters the filter to when it exists the exhaust in as many places as possible really and taking into account all the variables, so the more you add you could say, the more control you have. Plenty of ecu's where you can define the volume of air in the intercooler etc which all helps, especially if you are upgrading these parts and add density changes, take it further and measure all pressure drops and so on.

Torque structuring maf for my personal preference if I had to pick one of the two though.

second MAP instead of MAF on MAF oriented ECU - it is not problem, you know..

The BMW S63/N63 engine for example has two MAF's and then two pre-tb pressure sensors, and after those two manifold pressure sensors - 4 pressure sensors in total.
Simos 8.5 on Audi has no MAF, but a pressure sensor in the manifold.

Not looked at NA applications... Every Siemens ECU contains MAF_SP and MAP_SP - usually one of them measured, other calculated, but probably there are more with both.
So only looking at damos is not enough ;)
Looking back in history 2.2T AAN has both a MAP (in the manifold) and a MAF sensor. Ecu is M2.3.2.

There is ME7 VAG applications that are MAF-less from factory for those who don't know. They have the MAP sensor inside the manifold and they are N/A. They are also mostly sold in countries where emissions aren't as stringent (no SAI, etc).

Now what I don't know is: what the secondary/auxiliary load signal (aka the load signal also referred to as limp mode here) on these is.

Also, not to stroke anyone's genitalia but prj is right. If you do a MAFless patch on 1.8T/2.7T, you are just on a "limp mode" designed to get you home if your MAF fails. It does work well enough, though.

Give us some .ori or ecu partnr if you have, please

On N/A-engines, could it be as simple as throttle plate angle and engine speed?

its euro 1.4 75hp AXP/APE/BCA engines. they`re using map sensor in manifold to calc load
036906032P for example

Did that 2 years ago for the 1st time and I love it ever since.
It was Rotrex Schatged MK4 R32
Now I have 4 cars running HPX MAF and ZERO issues

It's the same on N/A and on Boost. Exactly how you said - throttle plate angle and engine speed (alpha-n).
On N/A the pre-throttle pressure is constant - atmospheric pressure.
On Turbo it uses the pre-throttle sensor to determine the pressure.

The problem with both approaches is, that you do not know the pressure in the manifold. So you do not know the pressure ratio at the throttle plate, so it is impossible to know with any precision how much air is going in.
On WOT you are basically relying on a single map (WDKUGDN) to tell you how much air the engine can ingest.

Hence why it is nothing but a limp mode.

hello,

after some years topic is back ;) anyone know how to send load to ESP module while MAF is removed with this solution ?
1b9e2 - KFMLDMN threshold for B_minflr diagnosis HFM/HLM change entire map to 0
10d69 - CWBGMSZS change from 2 to 0
1819c - CDEHFM maf code word change from 1 to 0
18802 - CWDHFM maf code word  change from 0 to 1
and finally, the one map you can change alone to simply remove the illusive p0102 fault and sensor error limp but will not have cruise and esp without the other 4 changes...
10716 - CLALM maf voltage signal error class change from 3 to 1

I am willing to pay some is someone have solution for mbox

Yes, re-install your MAF, or find a tuner that can do speed density for you.

always so helpful thanks Nyet !!
issue solved 

Hey mate, did you happen to have another copy of this image? It doesn't load anymore.

Why just don't calculate air mass? I'll plan to install second MAP sensor after throttle body. And plug sensor instead of MAF. Then mass of air flow can be calculate by next formula:
GBC = FE * Vcyl * P * 293 / (273 + Tair) * K
FE - correction factor from throttle/revs correction map
Vcyl - cylinder volume
P - absolute pressure after throttle
Tair - intake air temperature
K - calculation factor for unit translation

So mshfm = GBC * nmot

Formula can be more complicated. For example additional correction from pressure/revs can be added. And error diagnostics still there. If second MAP sensor will die then MAF error will be raised.

None of that is needed.
Set ps_w from sensor and ECU will do everything else. Look at FR.

Ok, I'll try.

What about dpsfg_w? Should it be calculated from ps_w or what?

Yes, dpfsg_w you get by subtracting old value from new value.
I recommend keeping integrator logic and inserting a filter map into it.

So basically:
dpfsg_w = (psr_w (sensor) - ps_w) * filter
ps_w = ps_w + dpsfg_w

I hijacked fvisrm_w for the filter and instead of populating it from kisrm I made it get populated from a map.