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Author Topic: Who owns ECU tunes, and what do people consider stealing?  (Read 111546 times)
nyet
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« Reply #135 on: May 23, 2014, 04:03:10 PM »

Shrug. I don't copy other people's tunes for purely practical reasons.

I trust stock code, though.
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Snow Trooper
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« Reply #136 on: May 23, 2014, 04:08:57 PM »

I don't even trust stock code a lot of the time. 
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RaraK
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« Reply #137 on: May 24, 2014, 08:05:31 PM »

I don't even trust stock code a lot of the time. 

true that....go look at a rs3/ttrs.  LOL, id like to throat punch the calibration engineer's on those. 
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nyet
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« Reply #138 on: May 25, 2014, 12:29:07 PM »

I don't even trust stock code a lot of the time. 

Heh. Fair enough.
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ME7.1 tuning guide
ECUx Plot
ME7Sum checksum
Trim heatmap tool

Please do not ask me for tunes. I'm here to help people make their own.

Do not PM me technical questions! Please, ask all questions on the forums! Doing so will ensure the next person with the same issue gets the opportunity to learn from your ex
scottmandu
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« Reply #139 on: August 15, 2014, 12:13:29 PM »

Correct me if I am wrong, but don't all tuners "steal" ECU tunes by virtue of using what Bosch tuners originally wrote for any given application?   I mean, no tuner fully erases an ECU, and then starts from scratch and names his own parameters.  Some, if not most of the work belongs to the original designer/author/tuner.
So, GIAC can claim that someone is stealing their work, but aren't they, themselves, guilty of stealing, say Bosches work on the ME7, ME7.1, etc, etc,...>

You are correct. Tuners that scream "So and so stole my code" are hypocrites, as they stole Bosch's code to start with. What is very interesting is there is the possibility that dis compiling Bosch software can be interpreted as a federal crime according to the Digital Millenium Copyright Act. However all tuning in itself is illegal to begin with as your altering vehicle emissions, of which for it to be legal you would have to re-certify the engine's emissions after the changes. The EPA is beginning to crack down on this practice with some of the big diesel tuners.

However I don't think it's necessarily bad as it forces tuners to stay on top of their software and continually improve it to keep ahead of the other tuners who just copy and change someone else's tune.
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hackish
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« Reply #140 on: October 16, 2015, 03:11:57 PM »

Check out the Berne copyright convention. One way to look at it is that the bosch firmware was licensed with the sale of the ECU. Someone selling calibration changes may not be breaking any intellectual property laws. Whether in the USA the DCMA was violated or any torts were done against Bosch would probably not even be admissible in your defence unless Bosch was a plaintiff.  Assume the tuner can show source code and documentation to establish ownership on the patches/changes. If you take and even publish their material you could be liable. If you resell their patches you're definitely on shaky ground.

Hire an artist to paint a picture. You paid for it. Do you have the right to copy and resell it? Lots of people would say yes but the legal reality is generally without a release and assignment of rights you do not. Tons of case law to support it too. Hire a calibrator to tune your car. You could resell the map because it belongs to you. Right? How sure are you? $5,000 sure $50,000 sure? This is why lawyers get paid to make contracts and agreements.

Even if the plaintiff is not successful you'll have the costs in time, lost wages and or legal fees defending yourself. Unless their case is without merit it is also rare to have costs awarded back to you. Some years ago Hondata launched a suit against the owner of pgmfi (Dave) for not taking down a tool that allowed people to hack a k-pro "fast enough". Just for hosting a web forum where an unnamed user posted the software.

If you go rip off APR, eurodyne, or any other companys custom patches the risk of litigation is real. If you're unclear I'd encourage you to sit down for an hour with an intellectual property lawyer. This advice is far more valuable to have before you decide to post it up.
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mister t
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« Reply #141 on: October 20, 2015, 04:34:10 PM »

Yes, everyone is working off Bosch code.  People crying about people stealing their tune need to just stop.  When I tune someones car and they pay me for it, that file is now theirs, they can do whatever with it.  If they want to take that file that is tuned extremely tight to their car and spread it to others, I dont care because it wont be perfect on the others and they will end up paying me for one anyway.

That is why I dont lock my files, encrypt them, location swap them, or ever bother to disabling reading over obd which is enough to stop 95% of people.

I look down on tuners that think they are special and need to protect their precious IP, it actually makes me view them as less capable, like they are so worried the one piece of okay work they did wont continue to print them money or something.  If you are a good tuner, people will seek you out and want to pay you for your skills.  Relying on secrets to stay relevant is not an indication of knowledge or skill.

WHAT HE SAID x10!!!!! (lol, 'ya think that's loud enough? Wink

I can't understand why tuning companies absolutely refuse to provide ANY information to a consumer about what kind of re-calibrations they've done.

Of course the argument from them is "well it's proprietary and we have to protect our investment". That argument doesn't wash in my opinion. Letting me know what areas have been re-calibrated does not put your investment at risk. It's not as though I could take that information and copy a tune.

I ran into this issue with JHM when I looked into buying a 3.0 tune from them. I told them that I've heard good things about their tune, but for the $700 it would have cost me after shipping and exchange rates, I needed some assurance that it would have been an improvement on my existing Unitronic tune.

So here I am, on the phone with them saying "hey guys, I want to give you money, all you need to do is give me SOME idea of what you've actually done and why this tune will be worth the $700". The only answer I could get was "well just take our word for it, you'll love it". Needless to say, I don't have a JHM tune......

My concern about the lack of any information whatsoever is that it creates a real risk to the consumer that they could be overpaying for minimal amounts of effort. 99.9% of people who buy a tune never know what's really been done to the calibrations. I often wonder how extensive the re-calibrations really are on some of these files. If everyone suddenly knew exactly what has been done for the $400-600 they shelled out, would they be happy with the money they spent....?
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Jim_Coupe
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« Reply #142 on: November 06, 2015, 03:39:37 AM »

Mister T i know exactly what you mean... I have experienced same problem with my VR6 24V tune... I want to know what they have done. I bought at tune for 400$ not so expensive but the tune was crappy as hell.. And then i called a "Serious tuning company" they wanted 800$ for a good tune.. Then i asked questions.. They never answered again. Quiet as the grave!
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E85oholic
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« Reply #143 on: December 01, 2015, 06:17:30 PM »

Check out the Berne copyright convention. One way to look at it is that the bosch firmware was licensed with the sale of the ECU. Someone selling calibration changes may not be breaking any intellectual property laws. Whether in the USA the DCMA was violated or any torts were done against Bosch would probably not even be admissible in your defence unless Bosch was a plaintiff.  Assume the tuner can show source code and documentation to establish ownership on the patches/changes. If you take and even publish their material you could be liable. If you resell their patches you're definitely on shaky ground.

Hire an artist to paint a picture. You paid for it. Do you have the right to copy and resell it? Lots of people would say yes but the legal reality is generally without a release and assignment of rights you do not. Tons of case law to support it too. Hire a calibrator to tune your car. You could resell the map because it belongs to you. Right? How sure are you? $5,000 sure $50,000 sure? This is why lawyers get paid to make contracts and agreements.

Even if the plaintiff is not successful you'll have the costs in time, lost wages and or legal fees defending yourself. Unless their case is without merit it is also rare to have costs awarded back to you. Some years ago Hondata launched a suit against the owner of pgmfi (Dave) for not taking down a tool that allowed people to hack a k-pro "fast enough". Just for hosting a web forum where an unnamed user posted the software.

If you go rip off APR, eurodyne, or any other companys custom patches the risk of litigation is real. If you're unclear I'd encourage you to sit down for an hour with an intellectual property lawyer. This advice is far more valuable to have before you decide to post it up.



Depends on how it was licences from Bosch does it not? The ECU inc code might have bought with the car for example, still muddy waters.
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How to work out values from an A2L Smiley

http://nefariousmotorsports.com/forum/index.php?topic=5525.msg52371#msg52371


Starting Rev's http://nefariousmotorsports.com/forum/index.php?topic=5397.msg51169#msg51169

noobs read this before asking http://nefariousmotorsports.com/forum/index.php?topic=9014.0title=


ORGORIGINAL 05 5120 creator for Volvo
ORIGINAL Datalogger (Freeware) Author
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I don't have ME7.01 A2L I just use ID
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