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Author Topic: Opinions: using KFLBTS vs LAMFA for fuel all the time?  (Read 384160 times)
tobz
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« Reply #195 on: February 15, 2012, 05:37:26 PM »

You guys are missing the point. You can use Knock based exclusively so long you establish 0.00 knock row. If you do that and stick in any lambda below 1.00, this will become the lambda car will follow as the lowest lambda takes over.

As such, you can ignore LAMFA, use BTS only for extreme temps and let KR path drive no-knock lambda with 0.00 knock path and then slip to lower lambda on higher timing corrections.

Keep in mind that table doesn't really indicate knock but timing corrections ECU is establishing TO PREVENT KNOCK.

So it sounds like you're implying that by adding in a 0 knock row, you would shape your lambda curve, vs RPM, for what you want to see during a WOT pull.  I can't see how else having a 0 knock row, with only RPM on the other axis, makes sense any other way.

Again, that seems like an awfully odd way to utilize a protection table. O_o
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phila_dot
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« Reply #196 on: February 15, 2012, 05:50:38 PM »

So it sounds like you're implying that by adding in a 0 knock row, you would shape your lambda curve, vs RPM, for what you want to see during a WOT pull.  I can't see how else having a 0 knock row, with only RPM on the other axis, makes sense any other way.

Again, that seems like an awfully odd way to utilize a protection table. O_o

KFLAMKRL is load and average ignition retard, it is offset by DLAMTANS based on IAT, and scaled by KFLAMKR based on load and RPM.
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tobz
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« Reply #197 on: February 15, 2012, 05:53:13 PM »

KFLAMKRL is load and average ignition retard, it is offset by DLAMTANS based on IAT, and scaled by KFLAMKR based on load and RPM.

Too many acronyms.... can you break that down a little more? Cheesy
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julex
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« Reply #198 on: February 15, 2012, 08:56:26 PM »

Simply saying it is not RPMs on the axis but Load. As such, it can be utilized to lower lambda when it is needed which is under boost and ignition correction due to knock prevention mechanisms kicking in.

I don't like BTS lambda tuning as it is very in-discriminative in its nature. You either have it enabled for a given load/rpm or not depending if you have triggered it via TABGBTS.

If it is triggered, any value at given rpm/load point is your final lambda regardless if other conditions which would either allow the lambda to be actually higher (lack of knock) or lower (impeding knock) and as such is pretty inflexible.

It is important to run at the highest possible lambda as everyone knows that the most power is obtained at 12.6 AFR (0.857 lambda).

With BTS you have to tune to the lowest denominator to mitigate knock which is not ideal for all conditions and prevents the car to reach all of its potential. With BTS you just have to use low lambda to ensure a batch of bad fuel plus running out of meth (or system failing) doesn't land you in higher AFR than your system can take for current timing.

Anyway, as said before, there are more than one ways to skin the cat. This just seems like the best one. With 0.00 timing retard row in KFLAMKR BTS becomes completely redundant in all but extreme temperature conditions.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2012, 09:01:08 PM by julex » Logged
rob.mwpropane
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« Reply #199 on: February 15, 2012, 09:30:58 PM »

What happens if you were to run lambda>1 in this map to squeeze out better economy?
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phila_dot
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« Reply #200 on: February 15, 2012, 10:04:41 PM »

What happens if you were to run lambda>1 in this map to squeeze out better economy?

It would have no effect.

Read this:
http://nefariousmotorsports.com/forum/index.php?topic=1408.0
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rob.mwpropane
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« Reply #201 on: February 15, 2012, 11:27:50 PM »


Thanks phila_dot, I do remember that thread along with this one.

 http://nefariousmotorsports.com/forum/index.php?topic=530.15

I forgot about it... Cheesy
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julex
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« Reply #202 on: February 16, 2012, 07:10:40 AM »

This of course got me thinking that just maybe we could investigate assembly code and see if the instructions to clip lambda at max of 1.0 can be altered to allow higher AFRs across the board... 1.1 would still be reasonable and allow the car to run fine.

Interestingly enough, even though there are numerous spots where lambda gets clipped to 1.0, I see that car is capable is to run at higher lambda when in VA mode (deceleration).
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ta79pr
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« Reply #203 on: February 16, 2012, 07:53:10 AM »

This of course got me thinking that just maybe we could investigate assembly code and see if the instructions to clip lambda at max of 1.0 can be altered to allow higher AFRs across the board... 1.1 would still be reasonable and allow the car to run fine.

Interestingly enough, even though there are numerous spots where lambda gets clipped to 1.0, I see that car is capable is to run at higher lambda when in VA mode (deceleration).

Yes, keep closed loop possible, but still allowing for 1.1 lambda in certain scenarios is a worthy goal.
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s5fourdoor
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« Reply #204 on: February 16, 2012, 08:38:24 AM »

julex - could you possibly share the following tables with us:
KFLAMKR, KFLAMKRL, LAMFA, and KFLBTS?
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julex
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« Reply #205 on: February 16, 2012, 09:03:04 AM »

julex - could you possibly share the following tables with us:
KFLAMKR, KFLAMKRL, LAMFA, and KFLBTS?

KFLAMKR - above
KFLAMKRL - stock
LAMFA - stock as it is useless to control lambda
KFLBTS (screenshot attached both in ECU format and AFR view of it):

1.00   1.00   1.00   1.00   1.00   1.00   1.00   1.00   1.00   1.00   1.00   1.00   1.00   1.00   1.00   1.00
1.00   1.00   1.00   1.00   1.00   1.00   1.00   1.00   1.00   1.00   1.00   1.00   1.00   1.00   1.00   1.00
1.00   1.00   1.00   1.00   1.00   1.00   1.00   1.00   1.00   1.00   1.00   1.00   1.00   1.00   1.00   0.98
1.00   0.98   1.00   1.00   1.00   1.00   1.00   1.00   1.00   1.00   1.00   1.00   1.00   1.00   1.00   0.96
1.00   0.97   0.98   0.98   1.00   1.00   1.00   1.00   1.00   1.00   1.00   1.00   1.00   1.00   0.98   0.94
1.00   0.96   0.96   0.96   1.00   1.00   1.00   1.00   1.00   1.00   1.00   1.00   0.98   0.96   0.95   0.91
1.00   0.96   0.96   0.96   0.98   0.98   0.98   0.98   0.98   0.98   0.98   0.98   0.97   0.95   0.94   0.89
1.00   0.96   0.95   0.96   0.97   0.98   0.98   0.98   0.98   0.98   0.97   0.96   0.96   0.94   0.91   0.88
1.00   0.95   0.95   0.96   0.97   0.98   0.98   0.98   0.98   0.94   0.93   0.93   0.93   0.92   0.88   0.84
1.00   0.95   0.94   0.95   0.96   0.98   0.98   0.98   0.90   0.86   0.85   0.84   0.83   0.81   0.80   0.79
1.00   0.94   0.93   0.94   0.95   0.97   0.97   0.89   0.84   0.80   0.79   0.78   0.77   0.77   0.76   0.75
1.00   0.91   0.91   0.91   0.94   0.95   0.89   0.83   0.80   0.78   0.77   0.76   0.75   0.75   0.74   0.74

And remember, for this to work both CWLAMFAW bit0 must be set to 0 and TABGBTS must be set to semthing much higher than 500C. I have it at 920C, 20-30 degrees before ATR system kicks in (EGT sensors trigger), checked with logs as my load/maf is exactly spot on and reflects real life values.
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julex
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« Reply #206 on: February 16, 2012, 09:05:03 AM »

Yes, keep closed loop possible, but still allowing for 1.1 lambda in certain scenarios is a worthy goal.

Closed loop at 1.1 would be the goal, which means normal operating conditions Smiley. I don't see any other scenarios when you would care for higher lambda, certainly not under any serious load.
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rob.mwpropane
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« Reply #207 on: February 16, 2012, 09:29:21 AM »

With my limited experience, its hard to believe that Bosch doesn't have something, somewhere to allow closed loop lambda>1. As flexible as Me7 is? Don't get me wrong, I'm sure everybody has searched,... that's just nuts.

If I understand correctly, open loop dictates lowest lambda available is used? So in this instance anyway, knock sensors would have no effect on AFR. Would it be possible to run open loop at low loads with higher lambda via Ricks post in the above thread mentioned, then switch to closed loop after certain load to take full advantage of KR tuning?
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nyet
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« Reply #208 on: February 16, 2012, 09:55:24 AM »

How would you get closed loop 1.1 with narrowband O2 sensors?
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« Reply #209 on: February 16, 2012, 10:47:14 AM »

KFLAMKR - above
KFLAMKRL - stock
LAMFA - stock as it is useless to control lambda
KFLBTS (screenshot attached both in ECU format and AFR view of it):



err...  http://nefariousmotorsports.com/forum/index.php?topic=141.msg14594#msg14594

I am confused, are you editing KFLAMKR or KFLAMKRL?

Its been jumped back and forth for the entire discussion both here and on other related threads.  What map are you editing?  Because the RL map you posted is for sure edited from what I have with stock mbox.
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