Nikifan
Newbie
Karma: +1/-0
 Offline
Posts: 21
|
 |
« on: June 11, 2018, 09:47:30 AM »
|
|
|
Guys hello! I need your help. I have Passat B6 2010 DSG7 with CDAB 1.8 TSI MED17.5 06J906026ET, 504587, 0261S05549 Gearbox is DSG7 0AM300048M 9033 Trying to reach 1Bar at middle revs and around 300nm. But some limiters are working and I cannot reach more than 250nm according to the engine measurement. Stock and modded bin in attachment. The problem of jerks at WOT is killing me... trying to overcome it for a month, but cannot find what can limit it Logs of load and turbo.  I see that K03 is not enough to give request air at 5300-6000revs... so I already decrease request. Logs of fuel  Logs of lambda  Logs of torque  Logs of retards and gerbox intervetion with torque  Jerks!:     To summarize: I cannot see any reason for these jerks, but they are awful. Four last graphs you can see serious jerks, it feels at the weel as hard deceleration and then again acceleration. Moreover, you can see the logs of torque by engine - it is around 250. I think there is should be some limiter which limit torque at this level and that is why jerks has come! I check gearbox intervention logs - no intervention from TCU side according to the measurement... So guys any suggestions? Seems just some map limiting me. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
NBR
Full Member
Karma: +20/-7
Offline
Posts: 79
|
 |
« Reply #1 on: June 11, 2018, 03:53:41 PM »
|
|
|
What are you using to log? If the jerks are occuring when the throttle is closing, it's because your actual boost is exceeding requested and the ECU is intervening by closing the throttle.
I looked at your bin, it's basic stuff covered in the S4 Tuning Wiki that you've missed with regards to KFLDHBN, LDPBN which is limiting your requested boost. Since you are raising the boost request, you may need to fine tune the PID since it's already overshooting your requested boost, MED17 is very different compared to ME7 and MED9 which are covered in the S4 Wiki. The load request is similar to whats in the S4 Wiki, go and read and Understand, then you will know what you are missing and how to mak changes to get your desired boost request.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
Nikifan
Newbie
Karma: +1/-0
Offline
Posts: 21
|
|
« Reply #2 on: June 11, 2018, 08:06:05 PM »
|
|
|
What are you using to log? If the jerks are occuring when the throttle is closing, it's because your actual boost is exceeding requested and the ECU is intervening by closing the throttle.
I looked at your bin, it's basic stuff covered in the S4 Tuning Wiki that you've missed with regards to KFLDHBN, LDPBN which is limiting your requested boost. Since you are raising the boost request, you may need to fine tune the PID since it's already overshooting your requested boost, MED17 is very different compared to ME7 and MED9 which are covered in the S4 Wiki. The load request is similar to whats in the S4 Wiki, go and read and Understand, then you will know what you are missing and how to mak changes to get your desired boost request.
Thank you for the attention to my topic... In fact I have ODIS and VCP... so I just put their logs into the excel to work with. Concerning the KFLDHBN and KDPBN - they are higher that load I request. I request maximum 167% load at 3000-4000... it means something around 2000mbar with 20 IAT (which is shown in logs as requested in fact) So it seems I am not reaching the limits of HBN and PBN as they are:  As I understood PBN is used when engine is too hot, so 2000 is OK in this condition. What do you think about Com_trqMaxNorm_C and MDNORM maps? Maybe it is limiting the torque? I cannot find it in my bin... trying for an hour without result.  |
|
|
|
« Last Edit: June 12, 2018, 01:50:56 AM by Nikifan »
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
teobolo
Full Member
Karma: +24/-6
Offline
Posts: 112
|
|
« Reply #3 on: June 12, 2018, 02:57:08 AM »
|
|
|
Hi,
On your BIn i found 1)engine-Moment of inertia relative On MDNORM(JMOTOR) @ 5C118 (16bit - offset 0,000015258789 )
2) Maximum Indexed engine moment for Moment-Standardization (MDNORM) @ 5EA54 (8bit - offset 10 )
try to lower MDNORM(JMOTOR) in order the car to see lower torque and stop limitng you .
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
prj
|
|
« Reply #4 on: June 12, 2018, 05:06:51 AM »
|
|
|
Really stupid idea to touch mdnorm on a car with DSG gearbox. Gearbox needs torque limits lifted as well, but there is a limit to how much the dry clutches take and the 1st clutch takes about 80nm less than the 2nd one before it starts slipping. Either way, looking at the approach and what has been done, the OP is SO over his head that I don't see anything ever coming out of this  |
|
|
|
« Last Edit: June 12, 2018, 05:08:23 AM by prj »
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
Nikifan
Newbie
Karma: +1/-0
Offline
Posts: 21
|
|
« Reply #5 on: June 12, 2018, 05:31:58 AM »
|
|
|
Really stupid idea to touch mdnorm on a car with DSG gearbox. Gearbox needs torque limits lifted as well, but there is a limit to how much the dry clutches take and the 1st clutch takes about 80nm less than the 2nd one before it starts slipping. Either way, looking at the approach and what has been done, the OP is SO over his head that I don't see anything ever coming out of this Understand and agree about necessity for DSG the right torque to be given, but now I have only around 250nm output according to calculations and measurements of ECU, where DSG DQ250 TCU in stock has limit of 300nm , so it will not interviene till 300nm. Am I right, that in case of slipping of DSG disks I will feel it as at usual manual gearbox (revs going higher without accel) or it will immediately interviene to torque and reduce it? I am experiencing limits now just around 250nm... and they have to be in ECU. Didn't understand about OP and SO... Any ideas what can be the limit and how to overcome it? |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
prj
|
|
« Reply #6 on: June 12, 2018, 05:45:23 AM »
|
|
|
TCU 250nm limit
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
Nikifan
Newbie
Karma: +1/-0
Offline
Posts: 21
|
|
« Reply #7 on: June 12, 2018, 07:44:24 AM »
|
|
|
TCU 250nm limit
I thought the same at the beginning. We already modify the firmware for TCU. In attachment stock 300nm and modified 400nm limit. No meaning of course. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
panos1975
Full Member
Karma: +7/-6
Offline
Posts: 105
|
|
« Reply #8 on: June 12, 2018, 10:22:03 AM »
|
|
|
find gearbox protecion maps and some other torque limiting maps.....this the solution in your problem.....also your file need more work in general....
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
Nikifan
Newbie
Karma: +1/-0
Offline
Posts: 21
|
|
« Reply #9 on: June 12, 2018, 10:36:04 AM »
|
|
|
find gearbox protecion maps and some other torque limiting maps.....this the solution in your problem.....also your file need more work in general....
Yes, I can understand this - but the problem that I cannot find them either any information about them in general... googling gives no results. So if you can show me the path - i will appreciate. The aim not just correct the file - for me is to understand the causes and consequences and the processes... that is why I came to this forum and I hope community will help me as I cannot find related information on the WEB. As I haven't got FR; what do you think about MDASGPH: DEGS map... I have value 255 here. Zeitliche Begrenzung Reduktionsmoment Getriebe (Time limit reduction torque transmission) |
|
|
|
« Last Edit: June 12, 2018, 11:24:06 AM by Nikifan »
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
prj
|
|
« Reply #10 on: June 12, 2018, 11:52:22 AM »
|
|
|
I thought the same at the beginning.
We already modify the firmware for TCU. In attachment stock 300nm and modified 400nm limit.
No meaning of course.
Torque limiters are not touched in your file. They are all stock. I already told you, you are in over your head. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
Nikifan
Newbie
Karma: +1/-0
Offline
Posts: 21
|
|
« Reply #11 on: June 12, 2018, 11:55:07 AM »
|
|
|
Torque limiters are not touched in your file. They are all stock.
I already told you, you are in over your head.
Can you suggest which trq limiters they are? I cannot find anything related through WEB. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
prj
|
|
« Reply #12 on: June 12, 2018, 12:01:26 PM »
|
|
|
No, I will not tune your car for you for free.
I don't know why you are even attempting this... Your knowledge is insufficient to tune even ME7, but you are diving right into MED17.
Start with something simpler, this stuff was difficult even for me (SIMOS12 + DQ200) when I did it the first time, and I do this stuff every day AND I have a dyno where I could verify things in steady state, on the road it's even more difficult.
You will also find out that clutch 1 will slip at a different torque than clutch 2, and the answer as to why you will see when removing the box. The gearbox is a POS.
Also might be that it's happening already if the clutches are worn - easy to tell, if it happens in 3rd but not in 4th, then clutch 1 is slipping.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
Nikifan
Newbie
Karma: +1/-0
Offline
Posts: 21
|
|
« Reply #13 on: June 12, 2018, 12:14:15 PM »
|
|
|
No, I will not tune your car for you for free.
I don't know why you are even attempting this... Your knowledge is insufficient to tune even ME7, but you are diving right into MED17.
Start with something simpler, this stuff was difficult even for me (SIMOS12 + DQ200) when I did it the first time, and I do this stuff every day AND I have a dyno where I could verify things in steady state, on the road it's even more difficult.
You will also find out that clutch 1 will slip at a different torque than clutch 2, and the answer as to why you will see when removing the box. The gearbox is a POS.
Also might be that it's happening already if the clutches are worn - easy to tell, if it happens in 3rd but not in 4th, then clutch 1 is slipping.
But I am not asking to tune my car for free. I just asking for help and maybe some suggestion where to dig to find the answers. I started with med17 because my car has it and I can make some changes and see result without problem. I do not have a second one with me7 or so... I do not feel any slippings now at clutches neither at 1st neither at 2nd. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
prj
|
|
« Reply #14 on: June 12, 2018, 12:23:40 PM »
|
|
|
The point is you've gotten absolutely nowhere.
Not with modifying the box nor modifying the engine.
You have -16 deg timing on WOT, throttle cut, your lambda target is all over the place and your gearbox torque limits are untouched.
You are trying to do in a month what took many of us years and years.
You will not succeed. It is more reasonable from both the view of the longevity of your engine and gearbox as well as time spent to pay a professional to tune your car.
If you are just getting into this, I'd try to understand engine basics and get a project car with a MUCH simpler ecu. For example ME7 with a manual gearbox. Get super comfortable with it (that'll take a few years at least), and then move on to MED17.
You are trying to run before you can walk, and there is nothing I can do to help you, because no matter what I give you, you will ask for more, as you have not managed to set a single parameter right on your own.
You don't need "help" - you need a full tune from scratch :/
I don't want to sound condescending but no one will learn this stuff in a month, NO ONE.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
