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Author Topic: KFMIRL & KFMIOP (done to death, I know)  (Read 2773 times)
IWay
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« on: June 10, 2019, 06:36:34 AM »

Hello,

Quick question on the S4wki is says not to change the KFMIOP,

 "Note that milsol will be limited by the output of KFMIOP (where the load input is rlmax), and the stock values of KFMIOP never exceed 89%. This means that unless you alter the max values of KFMIOP (no, there is no reason to do this), the largest torque request KFMIRL will see is 89%. Tune KFMIRL (not KFMIOP) accordingly.

But I have seen lots of references to the KFMIRL being the inverse of the KFMIOP and if you change the KFMIRL you need to change the KFMIOP inversely relative to the changes made to the KFMIRL.

What's correct, leave the KFMIOP as is or change it relative to the KFMIRL changes?Huh

PS
I have changed both (plus some other maps) and the logging results are showing what I've expected with the changes made.

Thanks
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IWay
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« Reply #1 on: June 11, 2019, 07:20:40 AM »

Hello,

The car is an Audi TT MK1 BAM 225 Quattro ME7.5.

After some mapping all seems to be going well apart from the logged Engine Load flat lines at 191, I think it's something to do with the KFMIOP as this map only goes up to 191 on the load axis.

How do you get round this, can you change the KFMIOP load axis values or is there some other way of resolving this problem?

PS
If you can change the KFMIOP load axis values how do you do it using TunerPro or Winols and what would be good values to change it to?

Thanks
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nyet
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« Reply #2 on: June 11, 2019, 08:53:45 AM »

Please post the log.

Also, why are you logging with time as the x axis?

Also merged your thread, please dont create threads for no reason
« Last Edit: June 11, 2019, 08:57:57 AM by nyet » Logged

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« Reply #3 on: June 11, 2019, 09:25:52 AM »

Because he is checking the whole log , or he didnt do WOT runs( I guess), I do the same if I havent done a WOT run that i can cut out or let ecuxplot filter it.

Anyway already gave an answer in 1 of the 3 threads you created Cheesy ( regarding kfwzop and timing / kfmiop)

KFZW is the basic ignition angle map, you can use it to add or remove timing. KFZWOP is not a timing map, its only used by the ECU to determine load/torque/actual torque etc. and the ignition angle efficiency by comparing actual ingition values to KFZWOP values, and hence that value results in a factor later used in torque calculation.

However, if you increase kfzw in non knock limited areas its possible that ecu will reduce the ignition values more than it has to resulting in poor running, so if you increase KFZW there , you  have to increase KFZWOP in the respective areas too.

there are also additional factors that contribute to zwgru but that is it basically. If you changed KFMIOP load axis you have to change KFWZOP map too, use maybe me7tuner wizard for this.
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nyet
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« Reply #4 on: June 11, 2019, 09:40:43 AM »


However, if you increase kfzw in non knock limited areas its possible that ecu will reduce the ignition values more than it has to resulting in poor running, so if you increase KFZW there , you  have to increase KFZWOP in the respective areas too.

Agreed. Note that there is pretty much zero reason to alter timing in non-knock limited areas

Quote
there are also additional factors that contribute to zwgru but that is it basically. If you changed KFMIOP load axis you have to change KFWZOP map too, use maybe me7tuner wizard for this.

I was able to just move a row down one to make room for another one.
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ME7Sum checksum checker/corrrector for ME7.x

Please do not ask me for tunes. I'm here to help people make their own.

Do not PM me technical questions! Please, ask all questions on the forums! Doing so will ensure the next person with the same issue gets the opportunity to learn from your experience.
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« Reply #5 on: June 11, 2019, 11:14:52 AM »

Agreed. Note that there is pretty much zero reason to alter timing in non-knock limited areas

I was able to just move a row down one to make room for another one.

Well, I think you can lower timing in those areas as a safety manouver if you are running a frankenturbo or something similar ,no ?

Also what do you mean exactly bt moving a row down ?
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IWay
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« Reply #6 on: June 12, 2019, 01:46:51 AM »

Thanks all,

I generally use time on the Y - axis as I have to use public roads for testing and it's easier to locate the relevant information using time as the Y - axis (trying to find a clear suitable road in the south east of England can take a while).

I I've worked it out (load flat lining at 191), I need to increase the load axis values on the KFMIOP & KFZWOP.

Questions (hopefully not dumb one's)

There are 11 values for the load axis on the KFMIOP & KFZWOP, I know how to change these 11 values, but is it possible to add values or is it a fixed limit of 11 values (pretty sure it's fixed, but would like someone to confirm)?

Does anyone have any experience using the ME7 Tuner Wizard, IE can it be relied upon?

I'm running a F23 Turbo, would I choose big or small turbo in the ME7 Tuner Wizard?

Blazius talks about lowering the timing for safety if running a hybrid Turbo;

- Safety in what respect?
- When might this be appropriate? (answer to the first one will probably answer this)
- Roughly where & by how much might the timing require changing?

Thanks again

I'm getting there Cool
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Blazius
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« Reply #7 on: June 12, 2019, 02:43:02 AM »

Thanks all,

I generally use time on the Y - axis as I have to use public roads for testing and it's easier to locate the relevant information using time as the Y - axis (trying to find a clear suitable road in the south east of England can take a while).

I I've worked it out (load flat lining at 191), I need to increase the load axis values on the KFMIOP & KFZWOP.

Questions (hopefully not dumb one's)

There are 11 values for the load axis on the KFMIOP & KFZWOP, I know how to change these 11 values, but is it possible to add values or is it a fixed limit of 11 values (pretty sure it's fixed, but would like someone to confirm)?

You cant add axis values only rescale them. I used KFMIRL / me7tuner wizard to generate me a kfmirl map and kfmiop along with kfzwop because na soft is way different and it would take me ages to rewrite the maps completely with logging, but it also doenst matter that much since i got dbc mode enabled and so Its to get my timing and kfped request tuned to get lamfa fueling over boost dialied in.


The f23 is most definitely a stock rod bender, it doesnt really matter if you limit lower rpm spool/timing because it will bend /break anyway after a while.I dont know what would be safe timings for that turbo , maybe 10-15 degree 3000-5000 and 15+ at wot or something.

The problem with it its that its torque peak is way to early for stock rods.

Does anyone have any experience using the ME7 Tuner Wizard, IE can it be relied upon?

I'm running a F23 Turbo, would I choose big or small turbo in the ME7 Tuner Wizard?

Blazius talks about lowering the timing for safety if running a hybrid Turbo;

- Safety in what respect?
- When might this be appropriate? (answer to the first one will probably answer this)
- Roughly where & by how much might the timing require changing?

Thanks again

I'm getting there Cool

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IWay
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« Reply #8 on: June 12, 2019, 06:26:30 AM »

Thanks,

I've used the Wizard to generate the attached maps for 2.5Bar and set KFLDHBN to 2.55 across the board.

If someone could take a look at the attached sheet to see if it looks as expected, it would be most appreciated. (not expecting anyone to analyse it, just see if there is anything glaringly obviously wrong)

The points that I'm concerned about are;

- KFMIOP, there are a lot of 100% entries
- The KFZWOP & KFZWOP2 as I fried 4 coils previously by changing the timing (could have been rubbish coils though)

I want to avoid breaking the car as I've only recently finished the mechanical build.

Thanks
« Last Edit: June 12, 2019, 07:29:21 AM by IWay » Logged
Blazius
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« Reply #9 on: June 12, 2019, 09:10:40 AM »

Thanks,

I've used the Wizard to generate the attached maps for 2.5Bar and set KFLDHBN to 2.55 across the board.

If someone could take a look at the attached sheet to see if it looks as expected, it would be most appreciated. (not expecting anyone to analyse it, just see if there is anything glaringly obviously wrong)

The points that I'm concerned about are;

- KFMIOP, there are a lot of 100% entries
- The KFZWOP & KFZWOP2 as I fried 4 coils previously by changing the timing (could have been rubbish coils though)

How are you going to run 2.5bar? Stock map cant measure that. All the 100% areas are for boost loads, and since its not a ko3 , you dont taper load/boost thats why you always have 100% torque there.

I want to avoid breaking the car as I've only recently finished the mechanical build.

Thanks

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IWay
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« Reply #10 on: June 12, 2019, 09:35:05 AM »

Doesn't the stock ecu\MAP sensor top out at 2550 mbar?
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Blazius
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« Reply #11 on: June 12, 2019, 09:53:44 AM »

Doesn't the stock ecu\MAP sensor top out at 2550 mbar?

yes it does but MAP measures absolute pressure , boost+ambient, you cant run more than 1.4 bar on stock map, without hacks or replacement.

Also I am pretty sure f23 cant do 2.5 bar..
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IWay
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« Reply #12 on: June 12, 2019, 12:18:09 PM »

Thought that might be the case, I was pondering it while cycling this evening. The KFMIRL & KFMIOP numbers did look high that's why I was asking for the advice.

I'll re-do the maps tomorrow.

Thanks for replying.
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Blazius
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« Reply #13 on: June 12, 2019, 01:22:22 PM »

Thought that might be the case, I was pondering it while cycling this evening. The KFMIRL & KFMIOP numbers did look high that's why I was asking for the advice.

I'll re-do the maps tomorrow.

Thanks for replying.

The f23 is basically an inflanted KO4, the map looks very similar to a ko4 one. So dont try to push 2.5bar lol. Run like 1.2-1.3
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prj
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« Reply #14 on: June 13, 2019, 01:27:02 AM »

The f23 is basically an inflanted KO4, the map looks very similar to a ko4 one. So dont try to push 2.5bar lol. Run like 1.2-1.3

How about giving advice when you actually have experience with the topic at hand?

F23 runs 1.5 bar relative (2500mbar absolute) in the midrange just fine. If your engine is CR9.0 or lower, then it's reasonable to do so as well.
If it is higher CR then probably want to keep the boost a bit lower.

IRL/IOP, it is enough to change last column/axis point, since you're not recalibrating torque anyway.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2019, 01:28:33 AM by prj » Logged
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